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If you still love Etymotic ER4, this is the thread for you... - Page 198

post #2956 of 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eke2k6 View Post

LOL! I had the opposite reaction to the adapter! 
 

Reading your comments, I think we have the exact same reaction. The difference is perhaps that I really hate the "bloated" sound of forward mids and perhaps you like the "warm and smooth" sound of forward mids.

 

Get the er4s and red filters and enjoy neutral mids. :-P hehe  Or green filters with a tad of eq to reduce the 2k region by about 1.5db :)

post #2957 of 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post

I have still never hear the ER-4 ...

 

I'm going to send my ER4S to Eke next week and he'll be free to pass them around to anyone interested.

 

They're undoubtedly among the most impressive single driver IEMs I've heard (but overall not quite my cup of tea).

post #2958 of 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post

I wasnt going to say anything until I tried it, but I took advantage of the tip posted earlier and bought the P to S adapter from eBay for my HF5.

Based on the descriptions Ive read here, it has the same effect of the HF5. Namely, it reduces the upper bass bloat and adds clarity to the midrange. Overall a much cleaner, clearer sounding presentation.

I can heartily recommend it for the HF Series.

 

I tried the adapter on my HF5 before, and it was an immediate no-go for me. The retrieval of detail was not consistent across the whole range. Mids got accentuated too much and gave an unnatural sense of heightened clarity. The overall signature, although still somewhat clean, became unbalanced. The adapter isn't a magic bullet. It transforms the ER4P into the superlative ER4S, but it doesn't quite do the same job for the HF.

 

I love the HF. Given a choice between the HF and 4P, I'd pick the HF any day for its performance to dollar ratio. But when it's up against the 4S... well there's not much to say really, the 4S is irreplaceable.

post #2959 of 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post


Theres no need for me to reread your post. Using the coax out of your DX50 means you are bypassing its internal DAC - in other words, using it as a transport.

Actually, I stated that the main concern was to have an amp only, not a DAC/amp combo.

 

You first comment was:

"If you really insist on using it as a digital transport, then you will need to get a DAC and an amp, which if portable, will likely be no better than the DX50 you already own."

 

Ok, I'll admit that I wrong to think that a coax output could feed an amp only, as I stated above.

However, originally I said that while I would prefer an amp with a coax input, I do not want a DAC/amp combo.

So yes, if you reread my post, I never "insisted on using the DX50 as a transport"; quite the opposite, in fact.

 

My original post was:

"Now, for using ER4S + DX50, what would be the best portable amplifier?

-- I would prefer an amp with a coax input, so I can use the coax output of the DX50

-- However, I do not want a DAC/amp like the Ibasso D12, so although that has  coax inout, I will not choose that one" (emphasis added).

 

I do appreciate your response, but you are not really addressing what I am looking for: amp recommendations for my DX50/ER4S combo.

 

I would welcome any such recommendations based on experience with DX50/ER4S.  Thanks.


Edited by billydelyons - 10/19/13 at 12:12am
post #2960 of 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by brofeelgood View Post

I tried the adapter on my HF5 before, and it was an immediate no-go for me. The retrieval of detail was not consistent across the whole range. Mids got accentuated too much and gave an unnatural sense of heightened clarity. The overall signature, although still somewhat clean, became unbalanced. The adapter isn't a magic bullet. It transforms the ER4P into the superlative ER4S, but it doesn't quite do the same job for the HF.

I love the HF. Given a choice between the HF and 4P, I'd pick the HF any day for its performance to dollar ratio. But when it's up against the 4S... well there's not much to say really, the 4S is irreplaceable.

Im not implying that the adapter transforms the HF5 into an ER4s. Im not even saying it affects the HF5 in the same way as the ER4.

Im saying that the added impedance reduces the HF5s bass bloat, which to me adds a level of clarity to the mids - which I think is a good thing. The downside is the added tizz it adds to the treble.

Mostly though, the change in sound just highlights for me the inherent weakness/flaws of the HF5 in general, which I never really noticed before due to the bass bloat masking its other negative qualities.
post #2961 of 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post


Im not implying that the adapter transforms the HF5 into an ER4s. Im not even saying it affects the HF5 in the same way as the ER4.

Im saying that the added impedance reduces the HF5s bass bloat, which to me adds a level of clarity to the mids - which I think is a good thing. The downside is the added tizz it adds to the treble.

Mostly though, the change in sound just highlights for me the inherent weakness/flaws of the HF5 in general, which I never really noticed before due to the bass bloat masking its other negative qualities.

 

This is the first time I've seen "bass bloat" applied to an Ety's even if it's a HF. :tongue_smile:

 

To my ears, bass reduction from 4P to 4S is barely perceptible unless I make a deliberate effort to detect the difference and even then it's still minute. It's only when you throw in the rest of the curve, from the mids/upper-mids onwards where the adapter magic begins, that the changes are significant enough to make the bass less evident. It's less evident in relative terms but not any less in substance and character than before.

 

The HF has a very similar curve to the 4P, but by adding on the adapter, the change is too bizarre for my liking. It's too erm... "abrupt" in some places. It could be the lower nominal impedance of the HF that's playing havoc. The tizz you mentioned is definitely there, and this alone kills the option of using the adapter for me. I'm tempted to try it again though, this time with the red filters to see if tizz can be tamed. Or maybe with 50 ohms instead of 75 ohms.

 

Just out of curiosity, it's been a couple of days, do you still prefer HF+adapter to HF only?

post #2962 of 4585

I prefer the lower freqs with the adapter and the higher freqs without. Overall though, the tizz in the treble is a deal-breaker for me too.

 

I remember when I first got my ER-6 many years ago my first impression was they were bright and thin sounding. Then when I got the HF5 I thought it was very similar to the ER-6. Now after owning Ety's for many years, I can only guess that my hearing has changed because the HF5 definitely sounds muddy with exaggerated bass to me.

 

I do have hearing loss so maybe that's part of it.

post #2963 of 4585

I am curious how changing out the inline resistors that bring the 4s up to 100 ohm with something a little smaller would affect the FR.  Has anyone posted FR graphs using different resistor values?  Would removing the resistor entirely give the same response as the 4p and reduce the need for an amp?  might be cool a slider mini pot in the harness where you can set the resistance.

post #2964 of 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovyd View Post  I am curious how changing out the inline resistors that bring the 4s up to 100 ohm with something a little smaller would affect the FR.  Has anyone posted FR graphs using different resistor values?  Would removing the resistor entirely give the same response as the 4p and reduce the need for an amp?  might be cool a slider mini pot in the harness where you can set the resistance.

 

Check this out:

 

 

This is not the ER4's response effect (and don't mind the faulty bass readings), but the principle is the same.

The ER4P has 18 ohms of serial resistance attached to its drivers; the ER4S has 93 ohms of serial resistance.

Here, the effect of no resistor, 20 ohms, and 51 ohms on a Sonion 2354 driver (similar to the ED-29689, but vented) is shown.

 


 

Side Note:

 

 

BTW, lately I've been using the Dynamic Ear Company Inōr DS-11 (aka Crescendo Hearing Protection DS-11, aka ACS T15) but with a special tip configuration (the stock triple-flanges suck):

 

Pardon the bad phone camera.

 

I've then been fitting it as deeply as possible (it can be done because they're so small), up to the 2nd bend, and using a 64 ohm resistor in-line with it.

 

Of course, 64 ohms is just a ballpark guess. The DS-11 uses a Sonion 2356, which has 26 ohms of DC resistance and 41.5 ohms of impedance @ 1 kHz. Electrical underdamping with 64 ohms seemed reasonable to me, though I suspect that it might need more resistance to sound flatter.

 

The resulting sound is already very good, however, almost devoid of all spikes, and very neutral in response, like an ER4P but with better bass depth. The only thing that might be lacking is absolute treble extension. There's probably also more distortion (vented drivers have more distortion), but it's not a big issue for me. I haven't had time to compare directly with an ER4 yet, though.

 

As some of you know, I don't own an ER4 because I find it uncomfortable. These are a bit more comfortable for me, even though they have a wider-mouthed stem.

 

Rin has measurements for this thing, BTW (but not with these tips, of course), just not posted yet. I don't know when they'll be ready.

post #2965 of 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post
 

Side Note:

 

BTW, lately I've been using the Dynamic Ear Company Inōr DS-11 (aka Crescendo Hearing Protection DS-11, aka ACS T15) but with a special tip configuration (the stock triple-flanges suck):

 

Pardon the bad phone camera.

 

I've then been fitting it as deeply as possible (it can be done because they're so small), up to the 2nd bend, and using a 64 ohm resistor in-line with it.

 

Of course, 64 ohms is just a ballpark guess. The DS-11 uses a Sonion 2356, which has 26 ohms of DC resistance and 41.5 ohms of impedance @ 1 kHz. Electrical underdamping with 64 ohms seemed reasonable to me, though I suspect that it might need more resistance to sound flatter.

 

The resulting sound is already very good, however, almost devoid of all spikes, and very neutral in response, like an ER4P but with better bass depth. The only thing that might be lacking is absolute treble extension. There's probably also more distortion (vented drivers have more distortion), but it's not a big issue for me. I haven't had time to compare directly with an ER4 yet, though.

 

As some of you know, I don't own an ER4 because I find it uncomfortable. These are a bit more comfortable for me, even though they have a wider-mouthed stem.

 

Rin has measurements for this thing, BTW (but not with these tips, of course), just not posted yet. I don't know when they'll be ready.

You've caught my interest. BTW this would be a grand addition to the Discovery thread, since that's what that thread is all about.

 


As an aside - I've owned the ER4P for 5 years and this is my first post on here! For shame! Hello to all, and hopefully we can get along.

post #2966 of 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinQY View Post  You've caught my interest. BTW this would be a grand addition to the Discovery thread, since that's what that thread is all about.
 

As an aside - I've owned the ER4P for 5 years and this is my first post on here! For shame! Hello to all, and hopefully we can get along.

 

I wouldn't mind if you reposted over there...

I just didn't think to do that because this more of a nerdy post on resistance and electrical damping (and also, I don't follow the discovery thread, moves too fast, it's dizzying).

 

Also, fitting these the same way as I do might not fly for everyone. People with larger ears might find them too small to insert all the way to the 2nd bend of the canal. I just happen to have smallish ears. Even so, I have to wear them over-ear to get them to fit the right way. I end up looking like a secret agent as well, so I guess it's a win-win.

post #2967 of 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post
 

 

Check this out:

 

 

This is not the ER4's response effect (and don't mind the faulty bass readings), but the principle is the same.

The ER4P has 18 ohms of serial resistance attached to its drivers; the ER4S has 93 ohms of serial resistance.

Here, the effect of no resistor, 20 ohms, and 51 ohms on a Sonion 2354 driver (similar to the ED-29689, but vented) is shown.

 


 

Side Note:

 

 

BTW, lately I've been using the Dynamic Ear Company Inōr DS-11 (aka Crescendo Hearing Protection DS-11, aka ACS T15) but with a special tip configuration (the stock triple-flanges suck):

 

Pardon the bad phone camera.

 

I've then been fitting it as deeply as possible (it can be done because they're so small), up to the 2nd bend, and using a 64 ohm resistor in-line with it.

 

Of course, 64 ohms is just a ballpark guess. The DS-11 uses a Sonion 2356, which has 26 ohms of DC resistance and 41.5 ohms of impedance @ 1 kHz. Electrical underdamping with 64 ohms seemed reasonable to me, though I suspect that it might need more resistance to sound flatter.

 

The resulting sound is already very good, however, almost devoid of all spikes, and very neutral in response, like an ER4P but with better bass depth. The only thing that might be lacking is absolute treble extension. There's probably also more distortion (vented drivers have more distortion), but it's not a big issue for me. I haven't had time to compare directly with an ER4 yet, though.

 

As some of you know, I don't own an ER4 because I find it uncomfortable. These are a bit more comfortable for me, even though they have a wider-mouthed stem.

 

Rin has measurements for this thing, BTW (but not with these tips, of course), just not posted yet. I don't know when they'll be ready.


Where did you buy those? And if I may what was the cost?

post #2968 of 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post
 

I prefer the lower freqs with the adapter and the higher freqs without. Overall though, the tizz in the treble is a deal-breaker for me too.

 

I remember when I first got my ER-6 many years ago my first impression was they were bright and thin sounding. Then when I got the HF5 I thought it was very similar to the ER-6. Now after owning Ety's for many years, I can only guess that my hearing has changed because the HF5 definitely sounds muddy with exaggerated bass to me.

 

I do have hearing loss so maybe that's part of it.

 

Mate, your hearing is fine. What you just described is an unmistakable trait of a long-time Ety user. It's called "bass intolerance". I'm not there yet, but there's no question I'm becoming increasingly like this.

post #2969 of 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovyd View Post
 

I am curious how changing out the inline resistors that bring the 4s up to 100 ohm with something a little smaller would affect the FR.  Has anyone posted FR graphs using different resistor values?  Would removing the resistor entirely give the same response as the 4p and reduce the need for an amp?  might be cool a slider mini pot in the harness where you can set the resistance.

 

Here's something from the headroom database. I've selected the ER4S, ER4P and HF5 fr charts for comparison. The variable control is a great idea. If anyone can manufacture such a thing and keep it to within reasonable size, it would be fantastic.

 


Edited by brofeelgood - 10/20/13 at 10:21pm
post #2970 of 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by brofeelgood View Post

Mate, your hearing is fine. What you just described is an unmistakable trait of a long-time Ety user. It's called "bass intolerance". I'm not there yet, but there's no question I'm becoming increasingly like this.

I hadnt thought of it like that, but what you say has merit.
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