Originally Posted by music_4321
Seems Mr luisdent and music_4321 finally agree on something: the HD600 is a great phone — the Senns are the headphone I'd recommend to anyone who wants not just fantastic SQ but a phone that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. But, unlike Mr luisdent, I think the HD600 renders music quite a bit better, more realistically than the F111 (sorry but have not heard the venerable ear-raping ER4S, but by all accounts they seem to have a lot in common), irrespective of which one has a 'better' FR.
Always a pleasure to read Mr Pianist's posts even when we disagree 97.4% of the time. This time, though, I have to ask Mr Pianist, when you say, "ER4S outperforms HD650 easily in many areas", may I ask two things: a) just how "easily"? and b) how many is "many" exactly? Is it 10, 25, 43, 72?
I still wonder if anybody here has heard the Sony MDR-EX800ST / MDR-7550, an IEM I mentioned a while ago but seems to continue to be terribly ignored and, therefore, terribly underrated. These days it retails in several places for less than the ER4S.
One last thing. The HD600, HD650 & HD800 are open-back headphones. Why should they isolate when they're not supposed to? There are people who actually prefer to have not the most isolating headphones and/or earphones. We have canal phones (aka earbuds) whose isolation goes from poor to non-existent. There are times when I intentionally use my very good sounding Apple Earpods (yes, their SQ is pretty good) because I don't want to use IEMs, ie I want the lack of isolation they offer, which, among other things, is much healthier for the ears. Not everyone uses their phones in loud environments... or in loud environments all the time.
I personally never said you need or always want isolation. I too use the earpods for when I don't want isolation and I find the earpods to be on of my favorite iem actually. The slightly boosted bass and treble help when there is external noise, but the non-isolating properties give them a similar openness to over ear open phones like the hd600. I also don't personally think the er4s blows away the hd600 as some people might. But I think they have very different presentations of a similar frequency response, i.e. both are pretty flat. Over ear headphones have more believable bass without requiring the bass to be boosted. But the er4s is a much smoother sound than the hd600. When I say smooth I mean that the hd600 has a sort of dry sound while the er4s sounds almost more liquid. I also hear more details in most situations when i do have the extra isolation of the er4s. I eq them both. Without eq the hd600 steps on the er4s for bass overall but the er4s wins with micro details. They are again different, but similar. Most people probably would say they are more different, but when you listen to the music as a whole presentation of sound accounting for the experience they provide, I believe they both achieve a fairly "studio monitor" type sound with the proper eq. Same goes for the hd650. They are simply a little less treble presence than the 600, but the same basic things I said apply.
I think a lot of sonys other than perhaps the xba series get ignored. That's unfortunate. I've used a lot of in ear and over ear sonys and have never 'not' enjoyed my sound. Perfectly flat, not always. But overall, they usually offer excellent sound/price value. I challenge anyone to pickup the rockin' buds for $10 and tell me it isn't amazing sound quality for the price. In fact, with eq it's pretty shocking how good they can sound. Durability and other things aren't top notch, but for $10 you could have a really decent set.
The crux with the f111 is the fit. I know you've heard me say it over and over. And I know you'll think you've tried every possible fit, but it is the same response as the er4s with the perfect fit. If not better in the fact that it's easier to listen to while being flat. The biggest improvement though, is that they sound more speaker like, more 3d, more open, more distinct. If you're not hearing this you don't have the proper fit. I honestly believe that some people simply can't get the proper fit, because it requires such a shallow depth, some ears might not have the right shape/canal length to accommodate this fit. It's so hard for me to achieve I almost though I had "though" I heard great quality when I first put them in my ears but that I must have been imagining it, because they were a new iem to me. But every time I get lucky and get that fit I'm shocked, because they sound so good. Without this fit I would say they're excellent, really good phones, but not as good as the er4s, hd600, etc. But with this fit they are at least at the same level for me. I just only hope that each person that tries them really gives them time and really tries everything they can to get a good fit. Once you do, you'll know it. You'll say "oh my goodness, they really DO sound like the er4s". Granted, they don't sound identical, because, well, they AREN'T the er4s. The presentation is just different in a lot of ways, but the balance and frequency response are what improve dramatically with the fit.
The problem with the fit is that it is so counterintuitive. It is the opposite of what you'd expect. You can't jam them in like the er4s (although this is o.k.) and you can't get a perfect seal and fit them normally. You have to practically get the exact distance AND the exact seal. For me this is hard, because, as with the er4s, pushing them straight in causes pressure which changes the sound and makes them thin. I need to insert them so they seal well, but lift and finagle them to allow air to seep in and equalize the pressure. Then bass is restored, but being shallow and well sealed the treble really shines as well.
Anyhow, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. haha. If you don't hear this I can see why you'd write them off as inferior to the other phones (but still very good). And unfortunately, I think a lot of people won't achieve this perfect fit ever, or enough to want to keep them (me). So, in a way, what "is" their true frequency response. Even if they were designed for a perfect shallow fit, if it takes a lot of work every single time you use them, most people will just insert them "normally" like most iems of this tip design. If that's the case, then the frequency response is warmer and less bright than the er4s, so don't go there if you like the er4s frequency response. However, if this magical fit does exist, should that be considered as well? Maybe some people won't have to work as hard for it. Maybe some people won't ever get it. In my opinion, that's where the f111 has failed... That is all. :-p