Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Portable Headphones, Earphones and In-Ear Monitors › If you still love Etymotic ER4, this is the thread for you...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

If you still love Etymotic ER4, this is the thread for you... - Page 150

post #2236 of 4934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krismarzyk View Post

lusident, maybe I'm wrong but as I'm browsing the net I find that Fitear f111 is universal IEM and I was asking about Custom IEMs which could be regarded as having similar sound signature to Etys ER4.

 

Check out what tomscy2000 had to say about Canalworks custom iems on page 138 of this thread: 

 

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomscy2000 View Post


I don't think the 1Plus2 has a similar midrange to the ER4. The TWFK sounds very different from the ED, IMHO, and the two will never sound similar in my book. I've actually done blind tests (same exact black shells) between the ED, TWFK, and GQ, and was able to differentiate the three. I was confused between an ED/CI combo vs. GQ, but that's understandable.

 

The CW-L05QD uses four Sonion 2354 in tandem. It's paired in sets of two, with dual bores (identical 680 ohm damping) and a voltage divider between the two sets of dual 2354. I think it's brilliant. It definitely gives off an ER4 vibe, but the soundstage sounds bigger, grander, airier.

 

CW also has the CW-L01, which is a 2354 with a 100 ohm resistor attached; sounds like the ER4S with slightly better bass extension (because of the bass venting). It also has a CW-L01P, which is a 2354 with less serial resistance, and sounds more like the ER4P.

 

Hayashi-san seems to be an admirer of the ER4 sound, and the majority of his models have modest levels of bass with present, bright-ish mids, but controlled sibilance. I'm a fan of his products.

 
post #2237 of 4934

 

First post in like 9 months.

 

ER4S with HD 600. In recent years I have gone a bit old school. Nothing much really surprises nowadays. Some of the newer BA earphones are decent, but most have some obvious flaws, and the measurements tell. Some are grossly overpriced.

 

I once heard the UERM, and I like it quite a bit. I heard the HD 800 with a very special DIY'ed amp with tube as big as my fist, and that was amazing too. Most amazing was the Staxes. I was thinking of getting a pair of SR-009, but as of now it'll remain out of stock on PriceJapan for a long long time. Maybe I will get a pair of Stax 005S Mk2 earphones, or maybe I will get the UERM. Not very sure yet, but sticking with the ER4S and saving up seems to be a better idea.

 

I have some green red and orange filters coming this Friday. Maybe I will take out the stock filter and replace it with the red ones, as per the advice here.

post #2238 of 4934
Quote:
Originally Posted by koonhua90 View Post

 

First post in like 9 months.

 

ER4S with HD 600. In recent years I have gone a bit old school. Nothing much really surprises nowadays. Some of the newer BA earphones are decent, but most have some obvious flaws, and the measurements tell. Some are grossly overpriced.

 

I once heard the UERM, and I like it quite a bit. I heard the HD 800 with a very special DIY'ed amp with tube as big as my fist, and that was amazing too. Most amazing was the Staxes. I was thinking of getting a pair of SR-009, but as of now it'll remain out of stock on PriceJapan for a long long time. Maybe I will get a pair of Stax 005S Mk2 earphones, or maybe I will get the UERM. Not very sure yet, but sticking with the ER4S and saving up seems to be a better idea.

 

I have some green red and orange filters coming this Friday. Maybe I will take out the stock filter and replace it with the red ones, as per the advice here.

 

Two of the best all around phones there are.  Affordable (relatively speaking) and very neutral.  The two pairs I recommend above all else to people.  They both have their flaws, but they compliment each other very well too.  No isolation with the hd600, the most isolation with the er4s for instance.  It's like having a great home set and a great portable set. :-)

post #2239 of 4934
Quote:
Originally Posted by koonhua90 View Post

 Most amazing was the Staxes. I was thinking of getting a pair of SR-009, but as of now it'll remain out of stock on PriceJapan for a long long time. 

 

What did you think of the SR009 compared to the ER4S, sound-signature-wise? 

post #2240 of 4934

I haven't had both to compare side by side. Last time I had the 007 Mk1, but only the HF5. So I can't say anything conclusive about them.

 

All I know is, listening to Stax give me tingles and goosebumps. And sometimes when I heard door opening or thunder or rain I'd turn around, just to realize it's coming from the headphones. Nothing quite as organic as that to me.

 

ER4S is very flat, and I like it. I have only heard the 009 in a meet. If you look up the response of the 009 on Changstar, you can see that it's pretty flat too. As of now I find the ER4S sounding a bit sharp with some modern recordings.

 

Tonally, the 007 Mk1 that I had is quite similar to the HD600. The ER4S has slightly boosted midrange. 

 

Nothing ever quite matches the presentation of Stax. Music floating to you from the dark.

 

Nothing ever quite matches the isolation of the ER4S, with the custom tips that I have. Those are like 2 yrs old too. With music playing I might not even notice if a shot is fired 3 feet from me. Standing at roadside I see trucks passing by. Whoosh, I felt the vibration and the wind, but couldn't hear much. It's an eerie feeling.

 

ER4S' design being quite old now, has some microphonics on the cable.

 

Listening to HD600, or the ER4S, leaves me wanting a bit more. A bit more so I could make out the movements of the singer's lips. A bit more so I get goosebumps. A bit more so the music could move me.

post #2241 of 4934

Seems Mr luisdent and music_4321 finally agree on something: the HD600 is a great phone — the Senns are the headphone I'd recommend to anyone who wants not just fantastic SQ but a phone that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. But, unlike Mr luisdent, I think the HD600 renders music quite a bit better, more realistically than the F111 (sorry but have not heard the venerable ear-raping ER4S, but by all accounts they seem to have a lot in common), irrespective of which one has a 'better' FR.

Always a pleasure to read Mr Pianist's posts even when we disagree 97.4% of the time. This time, though, I have to ask Mr Pianist, when you say, "ER4S outperforms HD650 easily in many areas", may I ask two things: a) just how "easily"? and b) how many is "many" exactly? Is it 10, 25, 43, 72?

I still wonder if anybody here has heard the Sony MDR-EX800ST / MDR-7550, an IEM I mentioned a while ago but seems to continue to be terribly ignored and, therefore, terribly underrated. These days it retails in several places for less than the ER4S.

One last thing. The HD600, HD650 & HD800 are open-back headphones. Why should they isolate when they're not supposed to? There are people who actually prefer to have not the most isolating headphones and/or earphones. We have canal phones (aka earbuds) whose isolation goes from poor to non-existent. There are times when I intentionally use my very good sounding Apple Earpods (yes, their SQ is pretty good) because I don't want to use IEMs, ie I want the lack of isolation they offer, which, among other things, is much healthier for the ears. Not everyone uses their phones in loud environments... or in loud environments all the time.

post #2242 of 4934
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_4321 View Post

Seems Mr luisdent and music_4321 finally agree on something: the HD600 is a great phone — the Senns are the headphone I'd recommend to anyone who wants not just fantastic SQ but a phone that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. But, unlike Mr luisdent, I think the HD600 renders music quite a bit better, more realistically than the F111 (sorry but have not heard the venerable ear-raping ER4S, but by all accounts they seem to have a lot in common), irrespective of which one has a 'better' FR.

Always a pleasure to read Mr Pianist's posts even when we disagree 97.4% of the time. This time, though, I have to ask Mr Pianist, when you say, "ER4S outperforms HD650 easily in many areas", may I ask two things: a) just how "easily"? and b) how many is "many" exactly? Is it 10, 25, 43, 72?

I still wonder if anybody here has heard the Sony MDR-EX800ST / MDR-7550, an IEM I mentioned a while ago but seems to continue to be terribly ignored and, therefore, terribly underrated. These days it retails in several places for less than the ER4S.

One last thing. The HD600, HD650 & HD800 are open-back headphones. Why should they isolate when they're not supposed to? There are people who actually prefer to have not the most isolating headphones and/or earphones. We have canal phones (aka earbuds) whose isolation goes from poor to non-existent. There are times when I intentionally use my very good sounding Apple Earpods (yes, their SQ is pretty good) because I don't want to use IEMs, ie I want the lack of isolation they offer, which, among other things, is much healthier for the ears. Not everyone uses their phones in loud environments... or in loud environments all the time.

 

I personally never said you need or always want isolation.  I too use the earpods for when I don't want isolation and I find the earpods to be on of my favorite iem actually.  The slightly boosted bass and treble help when there is external noise, but the non-isolating properties give them a similar openness to over ear open phones like the hd600.  I also don't personally think the er4s blows away the hd600 as some people might.  But I think they have very different presentations of a similar frequency response, i.e.  both are pretty flat.  Over ear headphones have more believable bass without requiring the bass to be boosted.  But the er4s is a much smoother sound than the hd600.  When I say smooth I mean that the hd600 has a sort of dry sound while the er4s sounds almost more liquid.  I also hear more details in most situations when i do have the extra isolation of the er4s.  I eq them both.  Without eq the hd600 steps on the er4s for bass overall but the er4s wins with micro details.  They are again different, but similar.  Most people probably would say they are more different, but when you listen to the music as a whole presentation of sound accounting for the experience they provide, I believe they both achieve a fairly "studio monitor" type sound with the proper eq.  Same goes for the hd650.  They are simply a little less treble presence than the 600, but the same basic things I said apply.

 

I think a lot of sonys other than perhaps the xba series get ignored.  That's unfortunate.  I've used a lot of in ear and over ear sonys and have never 'not' enjoyed my sound.  Perfectly flat, not always.  But overall, they usually offer excellent sound/price value.  I challenge anyone to pickup the rockin' buds for $10 and tell me it isn't amazing sound quality for the price.  In fact, with eq it's pretty shocking how good they can sound.  Durability and other things aren't top notch, but for $10 you could have a really decent set.

 

The crux with the f111 is the fit.  I know you've heard me say it over and over.  And I know you'll think you've tried every possible fit, but it is the same response as the er4s with the perfect fit. If not better in the fact that it's easier to listen to while being flat.  The biggest improvement though, is that they sound more speaker like, more 3d, more open, more distinct.  If you're not hearing this you don't have the proper fit.  I honestly believe that some people simply can't get the proper fit, because it requires such a shallow depth, some ears might not have the right shape/canal length to accommodate this fit.  It's so hard for me to achieve I almost though I had "though" I heard great quality when I first put them in my ears but that I must have been imagining it, because they were a new iem to me.  But every time I get lucky and get that fit I'm shocked, because they sound so good.  Without this fit I would say they're excellent, really good phones, but not as good as the er4s, hd600, etc.  But with this fit they are at least at the same level for me.  I just only hope that each person that tries them really gives them time and really tries everything they can to get a good fit.  Once you do, you'll know it.  You'll say "oh my goodness, they really DO sound like the er4s".  Granted, they don't sound identical, because, well, they AREN'T the er4s.  The presentation is just different in a lot of ways, but the balance and frequency response are what improve dramatically with the fit.

 

The problem with the fit is that it is so counterintuitive.  It is the opposite of what you'd expect.  You can't jam them in like the er4s (although this is o.k.) and you can't get a perfect seal and fit them normally.  You have to practically get the exact distance AND the exact seal.  For me this is hard, because, as with the er4s, pushing them straight in causes pressure which changes the sound and makes them thin.  I need to insert them so they seal well, but lift and finagle them to allow air to seep in and equalize the pressure.  Then bass is restored,  but being shallow and well sealed the treble really shines as well.

 

Anyhow, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  haha.  If you don't hear this I can see why you'd write them off as inferior to the other phones (but still very good).  And unfortunately, I think a lot of people won't achieve this perfect fit ever, or enough to want to keep them (me).  So, in a way, what "is" their true frequency response.  Even if they were designed for a perfect shallow fit, if it takes a lot of work every single time you use them, most people will just insert them "normally" like most iems of this tip design.  If that's the case, then the frequency response is warmer and less bright than the er4s, so don't go there if you like the er4s frequency response.  However, if this magical fit does exist, should that be considered as well?  Maybe some people won't have to work as hard for it.  Maybe some people won't ever get it.  In my opinion, that's where the f111 has failed...  That is all.  :-p

post #2243 of 4934

Why not just get custom tips and be happy?  wink_face.gif

 

Less discomfort than rubber tips, and no itchiness on the skin. It's not the easiest thing to achieve the same seal everytime and therefore, same SQ everytime listening to the ER4 using conventional tips. With the Westone tips that I have, once it heats up to body temp it just disappears. It's just easy peasy pop and go.

 

The velour pad on the HD600 is supremely comfortable too. I could sleep with it.

 

The whole earphone vs headphone thing is an age old topic. Headphones can simulate HRTF processed recordings, but earphones/IEM can't, as they bypass the outer ears.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization

post #2244 of 4934
Quote:
Originally Posted by koonhua90 View Post

Why not just get custom tips and be happy?  
wink_face.gif


Less discomfort than rubber tips, and no itchiness on the skin. It's not the easiest thing to achieve the same seal everytime and therefore, same SQ everytime listening to the ER4 using conventional tips. With the Westone tips that I have, once it heats up to body temp it just disappears. It's just easy peasy pop and go.

The velour pad on the HD600 is supremely comfortable too. I could sleep with it.

The whole earphone vs headphone thing is an age old topic. Headphones can simulate HRTF processed recordings, but earphones/IEM can't, as they bypass the outer ears.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization
I've had the opposite experience. I'll probably never try customs again. Everything you said is the exact opposite for me. With how difficult it is to get the perfect fit, i think it is 99% likely i'd never come close with customs.
post #2245 of 4934
Quote:
Originally Posted by koonhua90 View Post

 

The whole earphone vs headphone thing is an age old topic. Headphones can simulate HRTF processed recordings, but earphones/IEM can't, as they bypass the outer ears.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization

 

You'd be surprised to learn what IEMs such as the K3003, TG334, Parterre & KAEDE are capable of, or even the new 385€ FA-4E. (Not the F111, which sounds decidedly 2D [I had the exact same fit, same tips, same angle of insertion with Parterre & F111, BTW])

post #2246 of 4934
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_4321 View Post

 

You'd be surprised to learn what IEMs such as the K3003, TG334, Parterre & KAEDE are capable of, or even the new 385€ FA-4E. (Not the F111, which sounds decidedly 2D [I had the exact same fit, same tips, same angle of insertion with Parterre & F111, BTW])

 

I'm sure there's better and I can't wait to hear some, but I do think a lot of people won't hear the 3d-ness without the perfect fit.  The lack of treble definitely ruins the effect a decent amount.

post #2247 of 4934
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_4321 View Post

 

Always a pleasure to read Mr Pianist's posts even when we disagree 97.4% of the time. This time, though, I have to ask Mr Pianist, when you say, "ER4S outperforms HD650 easily in many areas", may I ask two things: a) just how "easily"? and b) how many is "many" exactly? Is it 10, 25, 43, 72

 

I think ER4S is better than HD650 in many technical aspects - the bass on the former is tighter and more defined, mids are more transparent, treble is much smoother and much more resolving, overall clarity is better, instrument separation is better, background between sounds is blacker with less grain/bleed, resulting in more focused imaging, and frequency response seems more accurate to my ears... HD650, on the other hand, has an edge in bass weight, soundstage size, imaging naturalness (due to the open back design giving the sound a more natural airy tone and allowing sounds to blend in more easily with the background) and dynamics. I will take HD650 over ER4S most of the time for dance, trance, rap, a lot of new age and ambient, orchestral, and, generally, for music where bass weight and/or soundstage and imaging naturalness are very important. ER4S, on the other hand, excels for small ensembles, including most jazz and acoustic music, electronic without much bass emphasis, a lot of guitar music (rock, blues...), a lot of pop, some classical... I do think HD650 is the better all arounder in the sense that it can reproduce pretty much any genre very well and doesn't really specialize in any particular genre(s). ER4S, on the other hand, is definitely more specialized IMO and sounds best with well recorded music that doesn't focus too much on low frequencies and doesn't require a large, airy soundstage to sound great. HD650 is far more forgiving than ER4S with poorly recorded tracks and while the former doesn't really hide much, it's not as aggressively resolving as the ER4S and won't make flaws stand out as much. Also, while HD650 is not as technically proficient as ER4S in the areas I mentioned earlier, it still surpasses most headphones I heard in those areas. Really, both are some of the best cans I ever tried and, as I wrote, both have their strengths and weaknesses compared to each other. Overall, ER4S does beat HD650 from a purely technical perspective IMO, and for me is the epitome of analytical no-frills monitoring sound with minimal coloration. HD650 is the epitome of musicality with its combination of somewhat colored, but highly seductive tonality, coupled with a sufficiently strong technical ability, with the result being a very involving, effortless listening experience.


Edited by Pianist - 8/21/13 at 9:20pm
post #2248 of 4934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist View Post

I think ER4S is better than HD650 in many technical aspects - the bass on the former is tighter and more defined, mids are more transparent, treble is much smoother and much more resolving, overall clarity is better, instrument separation is better, background between sounds is blacker with less grain/bleed, resulting in more focused imaging, and frequency response seems more accurate to my ears... HD650, on the other hand, has an edge in bass weight, soundstage size, imaging naturalness (due to the open back design giving the sound a more natural airy tone and allowing sounds to blend in more easily with the background) and dynamics. I will take HD650 over ER4S most of the time for dance, trance, rap, a lot of new age and ambient, orchestral, and, generally, for music where bass weight and/or soundstage and imaging naturalness are very important. ER4S, on the other hand, excels for small ensembles, including most jazz and acoustic music, electronic without much bass emphasis, a lot of guitar music (rock, blues...), a lot of pop, some classical... I do think HD650 is the better all arounder in the sense that it can reproduce pretty much any genre very well and doesn't really specialize in any particular genre(s). ER4S, on the other hand, is definitely more specialized IMO and sounds best with well recorded music that doesn't focus too much on low frequencies and doesn't require a large, airy soundstage to sound great. HD650 is far more forgiving than ER4S with poorly recorded tracks and while the former doesn't really hide much, it's not as aggressively resolving as the ER4S and won't make flaws stand out as much. Also, while HD650 is not as technically proficient as ER4S in the areas I mentioned earlier, it still surpasses most headphones I heard in those areas. Really, both are some of the best cans I ever tried and, as I wrote, both have their strengths and weaknesses compared to each other. Overall, ER4S does beat HD650 from a purely technical perspective IMO, and for me is the epitome of analytical no-frills monitoring sound with minimal coloration. HD650 is the epitome of musicality with its combination of somewhat colored, but highly seductive tonality, coupled with a sufficiently strong technical ability, with the result being a very involving, effortless listening experience.
Well said. I agree for the most part, but with just a little eq i don't think there's any genre the er4s doesn't excel at. Stock, yes the 650 trumps the er4s in low end for electronic, etc. eq, nit so much. Better bass impact, yes, quality... Not so sure. They're just different sounding bass due to the technologies. I'd choose the 600/650 in most cases if environmental noises and a few other things didn't matter. But the er4s has an almost silky quality the 600/650 lacks..,
post #2249 of 4934
Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post


Well said. I agree for the most part, but with just a little eq i don't think there's any genre the er4s doesn't excel at. Stock, yes the 650 trumps the er4s in low end for electronic, etc. eq, nit so much. Better bass impact, yes, quality... Not so sure. They're just different sounding bass due to the technologies. I'd choose the 600/650 in most cases if environmental noises and a few other things didn't matter. But the er4s has an almost silky quality the 600/650 lacks..,

 

You guys do realize that the 600 and 650 sound quite different, despite being from the same family, right?

post #2250 of 4934

Hey all--longtime audio/video enthusiast, new member here.  Air Force pilot in Alaska, been part of the A/V/home theater industry for over a decade now.  Have used Etymotic ER-4P's for that long, and I'm on my third set now.  My second set just got damaged, and I had them repaired/replaced again with the third set, which has prompted me to delve even more into portable audio.  So I just sent Ray Samuels a check for an SR-71 amp and LOD cable, and I'm also waiting for my custom mold plugs to come back from the manufacturer.  Between those two things, it should take me to a whole new portable audio level.

 

I also just replaced my broken ER-6i's with Ety HF3's as backup earphones.

 

I do miss my original ER4-P set.  I actually preferred the slightly rubberized cord, and the all red and blue ear stems that made it easy to discern left and right to put them in the correct ears.  Now, if the light level is low in the room, I have a tough time seeing which one has the red dot for the right ear.  My original review on the ER-4P was listen on Ety's website back when, but they've move on to newer stuff.  I use my Etys constantly while travelling, whether it's me flying, or riding in back while somebody else flies.  Sometimes I'll even wear my Etys instead of earplugs while doing a walkaround inspection of the aircraft exterior, right next to running jet engines, which is quite a testament to the sound isolation.

 

Etymotic customer service has been top notch all along, as I've tried some different products, and had to have damaged products repaired/replaced.  (all out of warranty, too)  This most recent time around, they charged me more than they have in the past, but I don't necessarily expect them to be so generous every time.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Portable Headphones, Earphones and In-Ear Monitors › If you still love Etymotic ER4, this is the thread for you...