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Sennheiser HD 600 Impressions Thread - Page 588

post #8806 of 8820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Head1 View Post

 

To be honest I wouldn't have thought decay would be a problem in most modern headphones. Even in budget headphones in a half decent recording I can hear when a pianist is pedalling, playing staccato, legato, percussively etc. I probably need to hear to it to understand.

 

Decay issues come from excessive response - it's not so much that the driver is still vibrating when it should have stopped, rather the problem is that if there's something wrong (relatively more than absolutely) with the response, you can effectively hear longer decays. Let's take bass for example - when the bass instead of "THUDTHUDTHUDTHUDTHUD" or "dum dum da da dum" turns into "THWAAATHWAAADTHWAAADTHWAAAD" and "duwooduwooomdwaamdwaamdwooooom" it's not that the diaphragm is vibrating excesssively, but that the response has too much low bass and not enough (even in relative terms) of the upper bass, you just don't hear the next note properly. In effect, it's not actually that THUDTHUDTHUD has no extension in the decay (I mean, really, sit next to a bass drum and have someone give the pedal a good kick), it's just that since the upper bass response is relatively strong or are both relatively even, you hear the next THUD while the decay of the previous THUD is gradually and quickly dissipating (as opposed to being too loud). You can test this by adding, say, a +10dB bass boost at below 80hz (but doesn't affect 120hz and up much) on a headphone that sounds "fast." Conversely, one may encounter a headphone known to be "flat" and then its bass drum sounds more like a snare with a pillow stuffed inside - that's because the headphone may be generally flat but then the low end response drops off early (like, compare some 5in stand mount speakers to a tower speaker with three 6in drivers).

If you look at the graph of the HD600 (and barring how accurate these should be in reality, when not taken with a mic inside a skull encased in ballistics meat, with a simulated ear canal shape going to the mic/s) there'a plateau in the bass response up to well above 100hz. On brand new pads this is absolutely no problem, especially with powerful, clean, neutral amps. However, use an HD600 with squished, worn out earpads (that exacerbate that bass response as the drivers are closer to the ears, and the earpads are effectively sealing in more bass), and even with a neutral amplifer and source chances are the decay issues (which is actually a frequency response issue) will be audible.

post #8807 of 8820
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac View Post
 

 

Decay issues come from excessive response...

That's kind of backwards.  The subject is headphone quality that allows the natural decay of music sounds to be heard - which is a positive and desirable trait.  You're saying decay is a fault or a problem to be solved inside the headphone.  No.

I see you're trying to talk about transient response and internal diaphragm self-dampening etc. but...

post #8808 of 8820

Decay information should be portrayed through the recording, not the headphone.   Ideal headphone would have no decay whatsoever.

post #8809 of 8820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billheiser View Post
 

That's kind of backwards.  The subject is headphone quality that allows the natural decay of music sounds to be heard - which is a positive and desirable trait.  You're saying decay is a fault or a problem to be solved inside the headphone.  No.

I see you're trying to talk about transient response and internal diaphragm self-dampening etc. but...

 

I didn't say all decay was an "issue," I meant that if there were issues with the decay - such as when it lingers too long - then it stems more from some problem with the frequency response (the reverse of when what you have is a bass drum that sounds like a snare with a pillow in it). If I had meant that all decay was an issue then I wouldn't say "decay issue" and just say "decay," as if instruments just stop vibrating right after you hit or pluck it.

 

Oh and I specifically was not coming from transient response and what not. Transient response as is commonly understood suggests that the diaphragm of the speaker/headphone has problems stopping when it plays a note, when in reality it's not like it actually stops vibrating (considering all other notes are still playing). The problem, again, is that if you have excessively uneven response that has a lot of low bass relative to the upper bass you get what effectively is "slow transient response," but it has less to do with the driver being "nimble" enough to start and stop as necessary than with its frequency response. The HD6x0 cans sound flat through the bass because it is - there's a plateau on the bass response but it's even up to the higher bass frequencies, so they are easily audible as well as maintaining effective/audible "speed." Use worn out earpads and you lose that. In this forum I believe the common term is "V-Shaped" (that includes the treble though). 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMRaven View Post
 

Decay information should be portrayed through the recording, not the headphone.   Ideal headphone would have no decay whatsoever.

 

Precisely. Decay is natural because instruments don't stop vibrating immediately, and neither would a playback diaphragm just stop vibrating for one note. It becomes a problem precisely when there is an issue with the frequency response, and instead of the note decaying/fading out naturally as you hear the next predominantly upper-bass "hit," you get a bloated lower bass fade-out of the previous note that interferes with how the following "hit" is heard.

post #8810 of 8820

I only started noticing this recently about the HD 600 but has anyone else noticed an odd emphasis in the lower treble where there is more sound pressure there than there should be? This shows up on every system I tried them on, so it's not a system issue. It becomes more apparent on a system that emphasizes soundstage as does the midbass bloom.


Edited by kman1211 - Today at 10:14 am
post #8811 of 8820
Quote:
Originally Posted by kman1211 View Post
 

I only started noticing this recently about the HD 600 but has anyone else noticed an odd emphasis in the lower treble where there is more sound pressure there than there should be? This shows up on every system I tried them on, so it's not a system issue. It becomes more apparent on a system that emphasizes soundstage as does the midbass bloom.

If you didn't hear it before, it could be that your pads are getting too soft? I hear no emphasis in the lower treble, only somewhere in the upper treble (>10k).

post #8812 of 8820
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueangel2323 View Post
 

If you didn't hear it before, it could be that your pads are getting too soft? I hear no emphasis in the lower treble, only somewhere in the upper treble (>10k).


I don't think so as I did notice something about the treble bothered me slightly from the get go but I wasn't sure what, not in a fatiguing way but as in something wasn't quite right. I only really started heavily analyzing the headphones a few days ago and that's when I started noticing what exactly it was. I don't really hear an emphasis in the upper treble, maybe slightly but nothing really noticeable.


Edited by kman1211 - Today at 10:45 am
post #8813 of 8820
Quote:
Originally Posted by kman1211 View Post


I don't think so as I did notice something about the treble bothered me slightly from the get go but I wasn't sure what, not in a fatiguing way but as in something wasn't quite right. I only really started heavily analyzing the headphones a few days ago and that's when I started noticing what exactly it was. I don't really hear an emphasis in the upper treble, maybe slightly but nothing really noticeable.

 

That's odd. My pair has the smoothest, most linear response in the mids and lower treble I've ever heard.

 

The emphasis I hear in the upper treble is very slight, and adds just the right amount of sparkle and air IMO. Not bothersome at all.

post #8814 of 8820
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueangel2323 View Post
 

 

That's odd. My pair has the smoothest, most linear response in the mids and lower treble I've ever heard.

 

The emphasis I hear in the upper treble is very slight, and adds just the right amount of sparkle and air IMO. Not bothersome at all.


It is odd. Some reason it becomes the most obvious when compared to my K712. The HD 600 is very smooth in it's vocals and mids to me and I absolutely love it's vocals and it's timbre but there is that weird sound pressure bubble thing that doesn't seem to influence the vocals too much but seems to have a fuzzing up effect to the treble, I realized that's what I attributed as a veil when I first listened to my HD 600. What's interesting the roughly 20 year old HD 545 I had(a precursor to the HD 600 and uses the same pads, driver foam, and cables) never once had this aspect to it's sound. I'm going to experiment with cable and tube swapping and amp switching more to see if things change any.


Edited by kman1211 - Today at 2:08 pm
post #8815 of 8820

It might just be me but... I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. No offense intended at all, I respect your observations. But I can't even begin to understand what you're referring to.

post #8816 of 8820
Quote:
Originally Posted by kman1211 View Post


It is odd. Some reason it becomes the most obvious when compared to my K712. The HD 600 is very smooth in it's vocals and mids to me and I absolutely love it's vocals and it's timbre but there is that weird sound pressure bubble thing that doesn't seem to influence the vocals too much but seems to have a fuzzing up effect to the treble, I realized that's what I attributed as a veil when I first listened to my HD 600. What's interesting the roughly 20 year old HD 545 I had(a precursor to the HD 600) never once had this aspect to it's sound. I'm going to experiment with cable and tube swapping and amp switching more to see if things change any.

Try a frequency sweep and see what frequencies stand out. Maybe you have a faulty pair.

post #8817 of 8820
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunshineReggae View Post
 

It might just be me but... I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. No offense intended at all, I respect your observations. But I can't even begin to understand what you're referring to.


I found it really weird, so I perfectly understand you not understanding what I'm talking about.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueangel2323 View Post
 

Try a frequency sweep and see what frequencies stand out. Maybe you have a faulty pair.


I will do that. That is possible, it could be faulty. There is some odd pressure in the 3-4 khz region on the HD 600 on the sweep. I know the FR graph shows a slight bump there. I wonder if I'm simply sensitive to that region of sound or the HD 600 portrays it in a weird way to my ears. I have to listen to another HD 600 to confirm if it's faulty or not. There is no other issues with the sound to my ears.


Edited by kman1211 - Today at 2:20 pm
post #8818 of 8820
Quote:
Originally Posted by kman1211 View Post
 


It is odd. Some reason it becomes the most obvious when compared to my K712. The HD 600 is very smooth in it's vocals and mids to me and I absolutely love it's vocals and it's timbre but there is that weird sound pressure bubble thing that doesn't seem to influence the vocals too much but seems to have a fuzzing up effect to the treble, I realized that's what I attributed as a veil when I first listened to my HD 600. What's interesting the roughly 20 year old HD 545 I had(a precursor to the HD 600 and uses the same pads, driver foam, and cables) never once had this aspect to it's sound. I'm going to experiment with cable and tube swapping and amp switching more to see if things change any.

 

HD600 Veil ? in comparison with my former late K702 65th 3xxx serial wich according to some use identical pads and soud same as K712 , the HD600 airier and a bit clearer .So you seams to be hearing the little bump at 3khz/4khz as reported by graph on HD600 but not the bump on 2khz wich is on all K7XX/Q701 (it never bothered me in anyway ) .

 

As said by blueangel2323 i don't find any oddities with HD600 trebble , and prefered HD600 overall , even more i can say that i prefer HD600 to Beyer T1 or even Stax SR-507 ("best headphones" that i owned )  , guess that with times more "advcended technicaly headphones" impress me less and less . I always stay stuned as many reported by naturelness and lifelike tonality/timbre of HD600 .

 

 

post #8819 of 8820
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaVoC-28 View Post
 

 

HD600 Veil ? in comparison with my former late K702 65th 3xxx serial wich according to some use identical pads and soud same as K712 , the HD600 airier and a bit clearer .So you seams to be hearing the little bump at 3khz/4khz as reported by graph on HD600 but not the bump on 2khz wich is on all K7XX/Q701 (it never bothered me in anyway ) .

 

As said by blueangel2323 i don't find any oddities with HD600 trebble , and prefered HD600 overall , even more i can say that i prefer HD600 to Beyer T1 or even Stax SR-507 ("best headphones" that i owned )  , guess that with times more "advcended technicaly headphones" impress me less and less . I always stay stuned as many reported by naturelness and lifelike tonality/timbre of HD600 .

 

 


I only found it the case at first. It's the opposite for me, the K712 is clearer and airier than the HD 600, it's brighter than the HD 600 to my ears. I do hear the 2khz bump on the K712, never said I didn't. Maybe, though I do find my K712 to sound inherently more refined in it's driver than the Q701. I really like the HD 600s treble other than that weirdness I have been experiencing in the 3-4khz bump. I am tinkering a bit with tubes and swapping cables to see if it helps. Honestly for me the HD 600 and the K712 are easily my favorite headphones I have owned, I can't say I honestly prefer one over the other, which I like more is mood dependent. I do find the K712 is the better headphone overall in terms of overall resolution, it's a true garbage in and garbage out headphone to me. The HD 600 on the other hand has this wonderful naturalness and a fantastic timbre to it's sound that makes it sound so real and natural.


Edited by kman1211 - Today at 6:39 pm
post #8820 of 8820

The HD600 has a peak at 3.5kHz. It's not big though. Maybe some samples don't even have it. :)

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