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Sennheiser HD 600 Impressions Thread - Page 499

post #7471 of 17133

LMAO :biggrin:

post #7472 of 17133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco1965 View Post
 

LMAO :biggrin:

I don't know where some folks get the notion that a tube amp has to be muddy. Perhaps they bought a $50 wonder assembled during the nghtshift in a Chinese prison for tone deaf political dissidents. The dayshift is reserved for higher quality Apple products.


Edited by StanD - 5/6/14 at 9:28am
post #7473 of 17133
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

I don't know where some folks get the notion that a tube amp has to be muddy. Perhaps they bought a $50 wonder assembled during the nghtshift in a Chinese prison for tone deaf political dissidents. The dayshift is reserved for higher quality Apple products.

A lot of it comes from impedance mis-matching and presenting improper impedance loads to the output tubes.  Its such a common mis-belief simply because output transformer coupled tube amps don't exist below $800... for whatever reason.  I have found that generally, the higher the impedance load on the output section, the lower the harmonic distortion... at least thats how I hear things with my tube amps and my dynamic cans.  Orthos of course are whole nother' world, as they present a different impedance load characteristic to the amp circuit. 


Edited by kramer5150 - 5/6/14 at 9:34am
post #7474 of 17133
Quote:
Originally Posted by kramer5150 View Post
 

A lot of it comes from impedance mis-matching and presenting improper impedance loads to the output tubes.  Its such a common mis-belief simply because output transformer coupled tube amps don't exist below $800... for whatever reason.  I have found that generally, the higher the impedance load on the output section, the lower the harmonic distortion... at least thats how I hear things with my tube amps and my dynamic cans.  Orthos of course are whole nother' world, as they present a different impedance load characteristic to the amp circuit. 

Yes, improper use is the fault of a misinformed user not the kit. There's also the hybrid amp that can drive low impedances without a transformer.

A good quality output transformer is costly. I wonder how the Woo WA-6 sounds, it is under $800. It can only output 580 mW at 32 Ohms, which may be good enough for most people. Woo is a reputable company, which is encouraging but not a guaratee of goodness.

post #7475 of 17133
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT007 View Post
 

So I got my HD600, $281 new. :normal_smile : I love Ebay...and this headphone!! :basshead:

 

Interestingly, it sounds great(a subjective 8/10) out of my Essence STX soundcard, albeit a bit bright with stock op amps.

 

 

QUESTION 1:

If anyone knows of any sub-$300~ (non-DIY) amps(probably solid state; tubes = muddy) that sound really great/awesome(9/10 or better) with HD600, please let me know! Sadly, I'm not rich enough to order 4 Schiit/etc amps at once to compare right now... :frown: 

 

I used to own a pair of 600 and Asgard 1 and in my experience that's a fantastic set up. There's now an upgraded version of the Asgard and the best thing is they kept the price of the old Asgard so there you have it. From what I've gathered the new one is every bit as good as the old version and then some so it should be quite a treat. 

post #7476 of 17133
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post

I'm  not saying that the GeekOut would not do the job, however, the HD600 is not a difficult headphone. It does it need anywhere near these power levels, it is load rated for 200mW. Approximately 21 mW will take it to 120 dB SPL,the threshold of pain. All you need is an amp with a low enough impedance as not to be a factor in the HD600's impedance curve and that can reach the voltages required by a 300 Ohm can. There are plenty of amps that meet this criteria that have excellent SQ.

I was recommending it to CT007 as an alternative to consider as an amp (and very good DAC I might add) for less than $300.

The GeekOut has a .47ohm and 47ohm output, both of which I believe would work good with the hd600's impedance. There is also a 450mW version for $200 and it is a steal. So it should have more than enough power then, to drive them as they should be driven. Most everything I've read about these cans is that they need good amplification to sound their best, so that's also why I recommended it. People over at the GEEK OUT thread have paired them with hd800 and 600s and have reported great results.

I will probably get a pair of hd600s to pair with my GO450 until My Geek PulseX arrives.
Edited by eliwankenobi - 5/6/14 at 10:16am
post #7477 of 17133
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

Yes, improper use is the fault of a misinformed user not the kit. There's also the hybrid amp that can drive low impedances without a transformer.

A good quality output transformer is costly. I wonder how the Woo WA-6 sounds, it is under $800. It can only output 580 mW at 32 Ohms, which may be good enough for most people. Woo is a reputable company, which is encouraging but not a guaratee of goodness.

Personally I think the bolded view above a myth... a highly miss-understood belief carried over from the speaker amp world.  From what I have found many of the output transformer principles in the loudspeaker world, just don't translate over into our milli-watt world of headphone amps.  Thankfully for us some really good sounding ~15-20 watt output transformers can be found for well under $30... unfortunately manufacturers for the most part ignore them.  Aside from Mapletree and Woo of course.  The beezar torpedo is another OT coupled amp that (IIRC) uses a custom wound OT, but even then its OTs were in the vicinity of $35/EA... on a bulk order - group buy kind of thing.  My memory could be hazy on this last point, so others will have to correct me :o 


Edited by kramer5150 - 5/6/14 at 10:25am
post #7478 of 17133
I bought a FiiO EO9K with mine, about £80-£90 delivered and plenty of power for the 300 Ohm load. Sounds pretty neutral and goes much louder than the iPad/Phone outputs with no distortion. Pretty much exactly what you want an amp to do!
post #7479 of 17133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithpgdrb View Post
 

I don't know what great guru told you that tubes=muddy.

I am the guru :bigsmile_face: You can tell the differences in amps/tubes/sources quite well with this headphone! Compared to my un-amped output, the three tubes(Shunguang 12AU7, GT 12AU7, J/J ECC82) in the 2 amps(Bravo V2, Project Sunrise III) I've tried are definitely muddy. I haven't heard any other amps with this headphone yet, so yeah... I did not know it at the time, but when I was testing out a bunch of amps and headphones at a local shop, the one I liked most was solid state!(also happened to be the Liquid Gold, lol)

 

Thanks for the replies, guys!

post #7480 of 17133
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT007 View Post
 

So I got my HD600, $281 new. :normal_smile : I love Ebay...and this headphone!! :basshead:

 

Interestingly, it sounds great(a subjective 8/10) out of my Essence STX soundcard, albeit a bit bright with stock op amps.

 

 

QUESTION 1:

If anyone knows of any sub-$300~ (non-DIY) amps(probably solid state; tubes = muddy) that sound really great/awesome(9/10 or better) with HD600, please let me know! Sadly, I'm not rich enough to order 4 Schiit/etc amps at once to compare right now... :frown: 

 

QUESTION 2:

The HD598 pads work on HD600, right? Do they feel better..?

 

BONUS QUESTION:

Can you tell the difference between something like the Modi and Bifrost with this headphone? (I'd like a new DAC, too, heh)

 

JDS Labs Objective 2 + ODAC would be right up your alley. It's the amp I use with my HD600s and I absolutely love this combo.

post #7481 of 17133
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

+1

Absolutely correct.

Edit: I measured the capacitance and resistance of my standard HD600 cable. The capacitance was 220 pF, the resistance was negligble compared to the can's 300 Ohm impedance. The cable becomes a factor way above audio, into the world of RF.

 

Hmmm...that does seem pretty high for a cable though. Personally, I'd still like to test (listen and measure) different HD600 cables myself to see if there's anything to it.

 

I actually think transformer quality is 10x more important for headphone amps. Even though power requirements are lower, every bit of noise, hum, non-linearity, and non-ideality is picked up more easily through headphones rather than loudspeakers. So you need not only better parts, but clever design.

 

I plan on checking out the Beezar Torpedo soon. It looks like a solid kit for the price; custom OPTs, active loaded, solid output caps, and all on single PCB. Even the Crack can't claim that sort of engineering cred :wink_face:

post #7482 of 17133
Quote:
Originally Posted by eliwankenobi View Post


I was recommending it to CT007 as an alternative to consider as an amp (and very good DAC I might add) for less than $300.

The GeekOut has a .47ohm and 47ohm output, both of which I believe would work good with the hd600's impedance. There is also a 450mW version for $200 and it is a steal. So it should have more than enough power then, to drive them as they should be driven. Most everything I've read about these cans is that they need good amplification to sound their best, so that's also why I recommended it. People over at the GEEK OUT thread have paired them with hd800 and 600s and have reported great results.

I will probably get a pair of hd600s to pair with my GO450 until My Geek PulseX arrives.

All good headphones require a good amp, not just the HD600, unless you want the headphones to reveal the amp's shortcomings. There's all sorts of myths about the HD600 being hard to drive or finicky about amping. These are neutral sounding and if your amp isn't a high impedance type that falls victim to the HD600's impedance curve, you should get great results with a good amp. Looks like this amp would not have any impedance related issues with the HD600.

Be careful about the power ratings, if the 450 mW rating is at 32 Ohms, depending on the design you can usually expect the 300 Ohm rating to be much lower. So check the 300 Ohms power rating.

post #7483 of 17133
Quote:
Originally Posted by kramer5150 View Post
 

Personally I think the bolded view above a myth... a highly miss-understood belief carried over from the speaker amp world.  From what I have found many of the output transformer principles in the loudspeaker world, just don't translate over into our milli-watt world of headphone amps.  Thankfully for us some really good sounding ~15-20 watt output transformers can be found for well under $30... unfortunately manufacturers for the most part ignore them.  Aside from Mapletree and Woo of course.  The beezar torpedo is another OT coupled amp that (IIRC) uses a custom wound OT, but even then its OTs were in the vicinity of $35/EA... on a bulk order - group buy kind of thing.  My memory could be hazy on this last point, so others will have to correct me :o 

I think that an amp should be able to crank out at least 1 W at 32 Ohms, IMO 1 W should be fine in most cases, even for HE-500's. MOst of the amps I see that are sporting 10 or more wats d so at 4 or 8 Ohms and fail to spec the power level at 32 Ohms.

So a $30 part will account for at least $60 to $90 of the consumer price, for this one part. By the time you add in the rest of the parts and labor, especially with a quality power supply, we're not talking about a noisy Bravo $50 wonder that beats a cheap output capacitor into nonlinear behavior. I expect that a decent tube amp will cost more than a decent SS amp, nothing wrong with that.

post #7484 of 17133

How much of a drop in sound quality would there be if I went from my current setup (Little Dot DAC_I -> Schiit Vali -> HD600) to the Momentum over-ear with no DAC or amp, using only either my laptop or Sansa Clip Zip?  I am thinking about doing this because I could get back a lot of the money I spent while saving for a better system.  Any opinions are appreciated.

post #7485 of 17133

You'll probably regret giving up the HD600.

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