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Sennheiser HD 600 Impressions Thread - Page 370

post #5536 of 8670
Quote:
Originally Posted by frequencies View Post
 

Yes, Modi/Crack, isn't expensive and good combo for the HD600 I guess. I'll build it myself, but no Speedball upgrade (maybe later). I read many good reviews (without Speedball) about the Crack (they say tubes sound kind of "liquid" and more natural) and it also looks nice :) I'll post a mini review about how the dedicated equipment vs. onboard soundcard performs. If I get a 2i2 or UR22 DAW (after Modi, for another PC) I'll compare them too.

I believe that tube amps for audio is more myth than anything. It started during the early days of SS when poorly designed class B amps tortured our ears with crossover distortion, excess THD, gobs of IMD and TIMD. For these reasons, at that time tube amps sounded much better. The tables have turned long ago, As long as an SS amp is not overloaded (clipping) and has adequate headroom you will get superb sound, unless it's junk. These days, achieving this in a SS amp is not difficult. The situation for an Electric Guitarist playing lead is very different, they will want to overload the amp to get increased sustain and a warm sounding distortion as means of getting a certain pleasing sound, hence tube amps when overloading creates this sound. What we want to do is replay that sound with great accuracy, hence no distortion, flat FR and no coloration. This is easy to achieve in a SS Amp but hard to achieve in headphones.

When comparing it is important to A/B with very little time between the switch due to the very short period for detailed auditory memory. It is also very important to match the loudness as our hearing (Freq. Response) varies with loudness and will fool you into misjudging equipment.


Edited by StanD - 12/27/13 at 1:38am
post #5537 of 8670
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

I believe that tube amps for audio is more myth than anything. It started during the early days of SS when poorly designed class B amps tortured our ears with crossover distortion, excess THD, gobs of IMD and TIMD. For these reasons, at that time tube amps sounded much better. The tables have turned long ago, As long as an SS amp is not overloaded (clipping) and has adequate headroom you will get superb sound, unless it's junk. These days, achieving this in a SS amp is not difficult. The situation for an Electric Guitarist playing lead is very different, they will want to overload the amp to get increased sustain and a warm sounding distortion as means of getting a certain pleasing sound, hence tube amps when overloading creates this sound. What we want to do is replay that sound with great accuracy, hence no distortion, flat FR and no coloration. This is easy to achieve in a SS Amp but hard to achieve in headphones.

When comparing it is important to A/B with very little time between the switch due to the very short period for detailed auditory memory. It is also very important to match the loudness as our hearing (Freq. Response) varies with loudness and will fool you into misjudging equipment.

I'm a piano player (not professional, hobby) myself and not experienced with some of the mentioned words (THD, IMD, ..). I know tubes are used for this clipping we all know (I listen basically to classical music only though) and SS sounds very bad when clipping.

If SS amps are so good (no distortion,..), why are so many of the top line very expensive ones tube ones I wonder.

Thanks for the comparing tips, learned something today :) (An A/B switch with settable volume is needed, hehe.)

 

I read your HE-500 comparison and it just shows just because it's "planar magnetic" and costs 300$ more it mustn't be better (for this price diff. at least). Sennheiser is a very good company and the HD600 is very good for its price :)


Edited by frequencies - 12/27/13 at 1:57am
post #5538 of 8670
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

Actually I put an A/B switch between the HE-500 and the HD600. My first findings are what I expected based upon listening experience. The HE-500 has a touch better bass but a touch too much treble sparkle. The HD600 is more sensitive and I had to readjust the volume when switching, which is not the most accurate way to test, but there was no other way to magically make the volumes perfectly matched when switching. The biggest tonal difference was the treble sparkle which I don't prefer, otherwise they are very similar. I just switched the leather pads to the velour pads and will do some more A/B testing tomorrow. The HE-500's cost $700 and the HD600''s $400. Neither will be leaving my home, but if I was forced at gunpoint to pick only one, I might keep the HD600's. Not bad for an almost 20 year old product which I prefer to either the HD650's or the HD700's. I'd prefer the HE-500's to either of these as well. After listening to these two cans, or so many other hifi cans, it makes one wonder as to what compels people to buy Beats or similar lowfi cans.

I'm really enjoying both, very much.

interestingly enough, I had the opposite opinion of the treble on these two cans.  the ortho treble is much darker then the 600.  the ortho does bass a lot better, but it has no where near the detail of the 600.

post #5539 of 8670
Quote:
Originally Posted by frequencies View Post
 

I'm a piano player (not professional, hobby) myself and not experienced with some of the mentioned words (THD, IMD, ..). I know tubes are used for this clipping we all know (I listen basically to classical music only though) and SS sounds very bad when clipping.

If SS amps are so good (no distortion,..), why are so many of the top line very expensive ones tube ones I wonder.

Thanks for the comparing tips, learned something today :) (An A/B switch with settable volume is needed, hehe.)

 

I read your HE-500 comparison and it just shows just because it's "planar magnetic" and costs 300$ more it mustn't be better (for this price diff. at least). Sennheiser is a very good company and the HD600 is very good for its price :)

 

Tubes are hyped :o , recording where is clipping  are bad ones , some tubes can smooth it , so it seams better , but they are just hidding flaws on the recording , this is not "Hi-fi" . And if you are speacking about clipping => excess of gain , this is an amp disign issue , not an SS design flaw .

 

And there also a lot of ss amps as top of the line :p (Many tubes amps are great souding also not bashing tubes )

 

But i agree that HD600 is awesome .

 

(note that their are many great tube amplifier , just that their is a bit too much things about the "magic of tubes" .)


Edited by HaVoC-28 - 12/27/13 at 4:54am
post #5540 of 8670
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaVoC-28 View Post
 

 

Tubes are hyped :o , recording where is clipping  are bad ones , some tubes can smooth it , so it seams better , but they are just hidding flaws on the recording , this is not "Hi-fi" . And if you are speacking about clipping => excess of gain , this is an amp disign issue , not an SS design flaw .

 

And there also a lot of ss amps as top of the line :p (Many tubes amps are great souding also not bashing tubes )

 

But i agree that HD600 is awesome .

 

(note that their are many great tube amplifier , just that their is a bit too much things about the "magic of tubes" .)

What we mean is that tubes were/are used to create this "extreme" sound (watch?v=W_coScEXmGo ; watch?v=eG41_nFbZwQ , 17min) but this is another topic. If it's possible with SS amps nowadays too, then this is good. I don't consider SS amps bad or something. It just happens to be that the Crack e.g. looks nice (nice gloving tubes), has good reviews from known experienced people, is from a good community company, is modular and components can be replaced easily, is analogue and isn't too expensive to try it out.

I never said there aren't any SS top line amps :), but tube ones can be detailed too so that a human ear can't hear a difference. Sometimes a discussion can go into esoterics, I understand and in the end they maybe equal in sound, but the Crack has other mentioned advantages :)

post #5541 of 8670

There are three types of amps, clean, distorted by inferior design and intentionally distorted. All three are available in SS or tubes.

  1. It is easier to achieve lower distortion in an SS amp.
  2. It is even easier to achieve inferior design in either SS or tubes.
  3. It is harder to achieve intentional distortion that is not hard to listen to.
  • Generaly, it is harder to achieve this using SS, however, one can come up with very interesting effects in an SS design.

The reality is that properly designed clean amps that can properly drive your cans will have little or imperceptable differences in sound. Pick an amp that can drive your cans without clipping and provide proper damping. Unless your imagination takes over you should be a happy camper.

Bad designs sound lousy no matter what technology is used.

IMO, if one needs to color the sound of your cans by adding even order harmonic distortion or rolling off trebles or boosting mids, one should have purchased a different set of cans.

I think the next thing I'll do is change my signature to read, "When it comes to listening, the human inagination is more powerful than reality."


Edited by StanD - 12/27/13 at 9:40am
post #5542 of 8670

Stan, ok. I prefer more flat, like treble and do not like bass, so hd600. If Crack isn't too precise, that's still ok for me, good reviews about it though. If Crack is warm and 600 flat that's a good combo I read.

post #5543 of 8670
Quote:
Originally Posted by frequencies View Post
 

Stan, ok. I prefer more flat, like treble and do not like bass, so hd600. If Crack isn't too precise, that's still ok for me, good reviews about it though. If Crack is warm and 600 flat that's a good combo I read.

If I was going the tube route I'd rather get a Schiit Valhalla, it has a better design, much better build quality, looks much nicer and is not a kit and comes with a 5 year warranty. As long as you can drive them, almost all of the sound quality is coming from the HD600's which are an excellant choice.

post #5544 of 8670
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post

If I was going the tube route I'd rather get a Schiit Valhalla, it has a better design, much better build quality, looks much nicer and is not a kit and comes with a 5 year warranty. As long as you can drive them, almost all of the sound quality is coming from the HD600's which are an excellant choice.

How so by better design?
post #5545 of 8670
Quote:
Originally Posted by DefQon View Post


The How so by better design?

The Schiit Valhalla has a much lower output impedance and can drive lower impedance cans, or provide much better damping for high impedance cans. The Valhalla achieves a greater voltage swing (> 10% at 300 Ohms) hence more power. Schiit posts detailed distortion specifications, they are not afraid to. You don't need to upgrade (and build more) to a speedball to improve the performance which Crack does not specify. The Crack shares tubes between channels which has got to be bad for crosstalk which will affect the soundstage. The Valhalla is complete, built much better and is easy on the eyes. The Crack looks like a highschool project, The Valhalla has a modern PCB construction.

And most importantly, the Bunyip says so.


Edited by StanD - 12/28/13 at 5:19pm
post #5546 of 8670

StanD what's your opinion on modern PCB construction vs point-to-point wiring? I always thought the second is better or at least it means better craftsmanship. 

post #5547 of 8670
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

If I was going the tube route I'd rather get a Schiit Valhalla, it has a better design, much better build quality, looks much nicer and is not a kit and comes with a 5 year warranty. As long as you can drive them, almost all of the sound quality is coming from the HD600's which are an excellant choice.

 

     As long as you buy it from Schitt.

     the warranty is not transferable

post #5548 of 8670
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrAdrian View Post
 

StanD what's your opinion on modern PCB construction vs point-to-point wiring? I always thought the second is better or at least it means better craftsmanship. 

 

    i just want to input some opinions.

    I have seen the pcb construction inside a high end class testers which cost millions

    Their soldering & board is top notch and their performance so reliable ( twenty four seven running) and accurate

post #5549 of 8670
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrAdrian View Post
 

StanD what's your opinion on modern PCB construction vs point-to-point wiring? I always thought the second is better or at least it means better craftsmanship. 

Point to point wiring is not as good.

  • Each solder joint is subject to a human error.
  • The placement of components are not exact, this can cause unwanted capacitive coupling.
  • More fiddling and hand bending of leads can cause damage to or weaken components.

A PCB eliminates these problems and upon inspection of the results of wave soldering, you can be assured of quality connections. A properly executed PCB eliminates or drastically reduces gaps in hand craftsmanship. You don't see NASA building spaceships using point to point soldering and lugs, do you?

post #5550 of 8670
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamalz View Post
 

 

    i just want to input some opinions.

    I have seen the pcb construction inside a high end class testers which cost millions

    Their soldering & board is top notch and their performance so reliable ( twenty four seven running) and accurate

You are correct.

A small or mid-sized manufacturer can send out to have boards stuffed and wave soldered by companies that specialize in this. Like I said, NASA doesn't fool around, they use PCB's as they prefer that Astronauts return from their missions.


Edited by StanD - 12/28/13 at 6:29pm
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