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Sennheiser HD 600 Impressions Thread - Page 325

post #4861 of 8635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinni Sanders View Post
 

Basically, it's not needed to spend money on another amp if you want to test how change in output impedance of the amplifier will change the sound. Pair of good 120 Ohm (or some else value) resistors, connectors, some wire and soldering iron - that's all. It is very old trick.
http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/tipstricks.htm

 

Interesting. Thanks for that. Do you know if one of these adaptors would do the same thing?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300453295797

post #4862 of 8635
Quote:
Originally Posted by devhen View Post
 

 

My G109 puts out a ton of power & voltage and generally has really good bass. The HD600's bass did improve slightly when I moved to the G109 but they are still bass-light in comparison to most of my other cans though usually only slightly. I wouldn't even characterize the G109+HD600 as bass-light really, just not emphasized at all in the bass, relative to the other frequencies (neutral). If I use the HD600's exclusively I quickly get used to their signature and the bass quantity is just about perfect. It isn't until I compare them directly with slightly bassier 'phones like the K712 that I notice they are a bit bass shy. The bass is there when called upon and all of the details are there but it stays out of the way of the other frequencies. So if you like bass emphasis they probably wouldn't satisfy you. Personally I really like their signature. It could use just a hair more very low bass extension but overall I think the smooth and neutral signature of the HD600 does a lot for it, in a lot of ways, and it keeps them interesting and satisfying despite the "boring" neutral presentation you hear initially or in comparison to some other cans.

 

I've heard the Crack increases the bass response and I can't wait to try it out. I'll be building one soon. As far as SS amps I'd say don't expect the actual quantity of bass to increase or the HD600's sound signature to change markedly. For that look into EQ'ing. I've done a lot of EQ'ing with the HD600 to great effect. With proper EQ you can get as much beautiful, clean bass out of them as you'll ever need.

It's the natural sound that I like. I get what was intended by the recording. IMO the bass isn't light, it isn't exaggerated.

High output voltage + high output power + high damping factor/low output impedance + low noise make for a great amp. Some more than others, but at one point the differences are purely academic.

Try a FiiO E12. When you want it, the bass boost switch works well with the HD600, keeping to the sub bass, not affecting the mids, etc. The output voltage hits 15.5 Vp-p which is enough to hurt and the output impedance is < .5 Ohm which for 300 Ohm cans, not an issue for either output current or damping. This thing is a steal.

post #4863 of 8635
Quote:
Originally Posted by devhen View Post
 

 

Interesting. Thanks for that. Do you know if one of these adaptors would do the same thing?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300453295797

Yes, this adapters made for amplifier output impedance rise.

post #4864 of 8635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oversemper View Post

 

So I want to somehow improve the bass experience on hd600+dr.dac2dx and, as I think, one of the wise ways is to get a standalone amp and connect it to the line-outs of dr.dac2dx.

I would agree that a standalone amp is you best bet. I have found that some amp/dac combos lack a little extra umph. It makes good sense that this is simply derived from a lack of voltage. Many praise the driving ability of tube amp, but I honestly can confirm or deny that. But what I would like to do is offer an alternative. Perhaps a nice receiver might do it well. I've heard some vintages can have nice sound. I know my 10 year old Harmon Kardon really makes my HD600 shine. Not to mention its practicality in running multiple sources, serving as a DAC, and amplifier for my speakers. I would look into something like that if i were you.

post #4865 of 8635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinni Sanders View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by devhen View Post
 

 

Interesting. Thanks for that. Do you know if one of these adaptors would do the same thing?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300453295797

Yes, this adapters made for amplifier output impedance rise.

 

So this would increase the amps output impedance? I was thinking it was the other way around because these are supposedly for low impedance IEMs for connecting them to high impedance OTL amps. It sounds like these increase the impedance of the IEMs to better match the high impedance of the amp whereas the HD600 would need one that increases the output impedance of the amp rather than increasing the impedance of the HD600, right? Or is it all the same?

post #4866 of 8635
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

It's the natural sound that I like. I get what was intended by the recording. IMO the bass isn't light, it isn't exaggerated.

 

Agree to that. I think that HD600 sounds very natural and prefer good electrical damping (amp with low output impedance). Good electrical damping greatly improve control upon the sound on resonance frequency, and that result in less distortions, clean and precise, but less boomy sound. Less damping not increase bass, but increase the resonance. In case of HD600 resonance freq is in bass region, and because of that bass impact increases, but control and accuracy somewhat decreases. It's matter of taste, of course. Some people will like "tubeish" warm and soft sound with more bass, some will not. Personally I like more precise and clean presentation.

post #4867 of 8635
Quote:
Originally Posted by devhen View Post
 

 

So this would increase the amps output impedance? I was thinking it was the other way around because these are supposedly for low impedance IEMs for connecting them to high impedance OTL amps. It sounds like these increase the impedance of the IEMs to better match the high impedance of the amp whereas the HD600 would need one that increases the output impedance of the amp rather than increasing the impedance of the HD600, right? Or is it all the same?

The actual impedance of the amp can't be changed. If the correct values of the 2 divider resistors are chosen, the amp can see the same impedance as the HD600's or whatever is acceptable for them to drive and at the same time reduce the level of the signal going to the HD600's which I don't understand why anyone would want to do that since they already require a higher signal voltage as they are 300 Ohms.

If your amp is of low or high impedance but cannot achieve the voltage required to drive the HD600's then resistors are not going to increase the voltage swing or gain, they will reduce it and make matters worse. Putting a single resistor in series will not increase the gain either, they may affect the SQ, IMO in a bad way, but the HD600 is very neutral which I wouldn't want to mess with.

A resistive divider can be used where an amp has a high output impedance and a large voltage swing and you want to match it to a low impedance set of cans or IEMs. Depending on the output impedance of the amp, usually you will attenuate the output too much when trying to drive low impedance cans/IEMs and end up without something that is not loud enough.

If you have a very sensitive set of IEMs and a low impedance amp that is overwhelming them because of excessive gain, then this could help. I would check if the amp has a gain switch before going on such an endeavor.

Since that eBay adapter does not specify what is inside, chances are one would be disappointed with the outcome.

post #4868 of 8635
Quote:
Originally Posted by devhen View Post
 

 

So this would increase the amps output impedance? I was thinking it was the other way around because these are supposedly for low impedance IEMs for connecting them to high impedance OTL amps. It sounds like these increase the impedance of the IEMs to better match the high impedance of the amp whereas the HD600 would need one that increases the output impedance of the amp rather than increasing the impedance of the HD600, right? Or is it all the same?

In reality it's not impedance of an amp or a headphones is changed, but impedance of an electrical circuit that includes amp output jack and headphones, is changed. It is basically not important where you place the resistor - in cans or in amp, what important - that will be resistor placed in parallel or in series. To increase an impedance of a circuit - in series, to decrease it - in parallel.

Seller wrote that "This adapter adds some impedance, to be exact 75ohm, to your ER-4P and then makes yours sound JUST like ER-4S". It is for any amplifier, as I understand.
ER-4S have 100Ohm impedance at 1KHz.
ER-4P have 27Ohm impedance at 1KHz.
So I assume adapter have 75Ohm resistor placed in series - to increase overall impedance of the circuit and "emulate" ER-4S behavior.
Etymotic have an adapter ER4P-24 that, I think, do the same thing.

post #4869 of 8635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinni Sanders View Post
 

Agree to that. I think that HD600 sounds very natural and prefer good electrical damping (amp with low output impedance). Good electrical damping greatly improve control upon the sound on resonance frequency, and that result in less distortions, clean and precise, but less boomy sound. Less damping not increase bass, but increase the resonance. In case of HD600 resonance freq is in bass region, and because of that bass impact increases, but control and accuracy somewhat decreases. It's matter of taste, of course. Some people will like "tubeish" warm and soft sound with more bass, some will not. Personally I like more precise and clean presentation.

Tubes don't necessarily mean more bass, that can be achieved in a solid state amp as well. Usually tubish warm is a result of an amp with little or no closed loop feedback that generates some even order harmonic distortion, some people like to select tubes that color the sound to their liking. Even order harmonic distortion and soft overloading was always desired for a guitar amp.

Solid State amps get a bad rap for things that shouldn't apply.

  • Clipping distortion and overload dynamics
    • That's the old guitar story
    • Buy an amp that has adequate headroom.
  • Not enough voltage swing to drive high impedance cans.
    • Buy a solid state amp that can deliver the proper voltage swing.
  • Cross-Over Distortion
    • Who makes stinky Class B amps these days?

I like a neutral sounding amp, with switchable sub bass boost for when I feel like it. So whatever you prefer, it's available, glass or silicon.

post #4870 of 8635

Having switched from an OTL tube amp to a solid-state, the flavors are definitely different. Speaking from only aural experience between a Little Dot MKIII and Schiit Asgard 2, the former does lend to a warmer, more bassy presentation at the expense of some thickness - the coloration is totally fine for the most part but it's not really what I can call accurate nor clean. Of course, better tube amps can sound more neutral and detailed, but I'll have to look at amps at a higher price category or roll tubes. The latter, while sounding less weighty, does have a cleaner and more neutral presentation across the board. Pairing the HD600 with solid-state does produce an interesting sound - one that is slightly less mid-centric and soulful but more tonally accurate yet still smooth.

 

As always with amp pairings it's YMMV. :)

post #4871 of 8635
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanD View Post
 

Tubes don't necessarily mean more bass, that can be achieved in a solid state amp as well.
[...]

I like a neutral sounding amp, with switchable sub bass boost for when I feel like it. So whatever you prefer, it's available, glass or silicon.

Btw, high level of even harmonics can be implemented with an solid state amp too (But for what purpose? Good amp must have as low distortions as possible). And some software volume control algorithms in audio player software on PC results in even harmonics with level higher than -100dB, and other distortions (it's interesting theme, but offtopic, and good software do not do that, or minimise effect).
Today with PC as a source you can do many things with sound in digital domain, with no cost. Matter of taste and knowledge. 

post #4872 of 8635
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjsoviet View Post

Having switched from an OTL tube amp to a solid-state, the flavors are definitely different. Speaking from only aural experience between a Little Dot MKIII and Schiit Asgard 2, the former does lend to a warmer, more bassy presentation at the expense of some thickness - the coloration is totally fine for the most part but it's not really what I can call accurate nor clean. Of course, better tube amps can sound more neutral and detailed, but I'll have to look at amps at a higher price category or roll tubes. The latter, while sounding less weighty, does have a cleaner and more neutral presentation across the board. Pairing the HD600 with solid-state does produce an interesting sound - one that is slightly less mid-centric and soulful but more tonally accurate yet still smooth.

As always with amp pairings it's YMMV. smily_headphones1.gif

I find the Bottlehead Crack to be detailed and accurate, with solid (but not overemphasized) bass. I've owned and used plenty of tube amps that were slow, thick and lacking in detail. The Crack is not one of those. As for trying more expensive amps, what would you try? I've gone as high as the Woo Audio WA22 with every upgrade tube they offer (total over $2,000). WHEN USED WITH THE HD600s / HD800s, it was no contest. The Crack cleaned house and made the WA22 look incredibly slow and colored. I suspect an Eddie Current would be slightly better, but at well over 10x the cost of the Crack.

There are plenty of solid state amps that sound good with the HD600s, but only the Crack has really made them sound magical, in my opinion. And I have tried the HD600s with a TON of both solid state and tube amps. The fact that so many solid state amps sound fairly good with the HD600s strikes me as more of a testament to the flexibility and inherent "goodness" of the HD600s than anything else.

Best regards,
Adam
post #4873 of 8635
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinni Sanders View Post

 

Btw, high level of even harmonics can be implemented with an solid state amp too (But for what purpose? Good amp must have as low distortions as possible). And some software volume control algorithms in audio player software on PC results in even harmonics with level higher than -100dB, and other distortions (it's interesting theme, but offtopic, and good software do not do that, or minimise effect).
Today with PC as a source you can do many things with sound in digital domain, with no cost. Matter of taste and knowledge. 

 

Yeah I've noticed some bass distortion with the Windows sound mixer. At first it sounds like there is slightly more bass than through ASIO bit-perfect but on further inspection it appears to just be distortion.

post #4874 of 8635
Quote:
Originally Posted by amcananey View Post


I find the Bottlehead Crack to be detailed and accurate, with solid (but not overemphasized) bass. I've owned and used plenty of tube amps that were slow, thick and lacking in detail. The Crack is not one of those. As for trying more expensive amps, what would you try? I've gone as high as the Woo Audio WA22 with every upgrade tube they offer (total over $2,000). WHEN USED WITH THE HD600s / HD800s, it was no contest. The Crack cleaned house and made the WA22 look incredibly slow and colored. I suspect an Eddie Current would be slightly better, but at well over 10x the cost of the Crack.

There are plenty of solid state amps that sound good with the HD600s, but only the Crack has really made them sound magical, in my opinion. And I have tried the HD600s with a TON of both solid state and tube amps. The fact that so many solid state amps sound fairly good with the HD600s strikes me as more of a testament to the flexibility and inherent "goodness" of the HD600s than anything else.

Best regards,
Adam

 

I'll take your word for it that the Crack is practically the match made in heaven for the HD600 :p

 

If it were just a bit more flexible with output impedance then it would have served both my Senn and Shure extremely well.

 

Then again at this point I am wooed by the SRH1540 to consider selling both my cans for it. I dunno, it just looks like something I'd enjoy.

post #4875 of 8635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinni Sanders View Post
 

Btw, high level of even harmonics can be implemented with an solid state amp too (But for what purpose? Good amp must have as low distortions as possible). And some software volume control algorithms in audio player software on PC results in even harmonics with level higher than -100dB, and other distortions (it's interesting theme, but offtopic, and good software do not do that, or minimise effect).
Today with PC as a source you can do many things with sound in digital domain, with no cost. Matter of taste and knowledge. 

Sure you can create even harmonics by extra design work and circuits in a solid state amp. Guitar amps are getting better at it.  But for me, when it comes to audio reproduction, I don't want any distortion. I think we might be agreeing on this.

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