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Sennheiser HD 600 Impressions Thread - Page 156

post #2326 of 8413
Quote:
Originally Posted by devhen View Post

 

For the record, I don't have experience with aftermarket cables aside from using the HD650 cable on my HD600, which has made no noticeable difference for me so far (just got it a few days ago).

 

I doubt that everyone who has made the 'snake oil' argument has zero experience with recabling.

 

I think the reason why a lot of us feel very skeptical about the potential improvements of recabling is because of exactly the kind of language you've used here. You claim that recabling never makes more than a 5% difference (which a lot of the people here would probably never be able to notice) and yet you claim that you HATE the HD600 with Canare cables. No offense man, you've obviously contributed a whole lot to this community over the years, but I can't take you seriously because of how often you use such extreme language. You apparently hate the HD600 when a Canare cable changes it just 5%. You hate the DJ100 when unamped even though everyone else says amping doesn't effect it. You think the HD580 is way better than the HD600 even though everyone else says they sound virtually identical (probably the only difference being very small manufacturing variances which exist even within the exact same headphone model). I just don't know man.... either your ears are way more sensitive than anyone else's or you're using way too extreme of language to explain what are actually very miniscule differences that most people would never notice or base their headphone judgements on.

 

This 5% figure isn't based on any scientific evidence. Putting the differences into a percentage is kind of stupid on my part, but it's better than saying it will totally transform a headphone. I don't want to get people's hopes up that a recable will majorly improve a headphone. It doesn't. Sometimes it actually makes it worse. I don't even like the Q701 as much with some DIY (cheap) cables. All along I always suggested to listen with your own ears by making your own cable for $10. If they don't hear a difference, then don't bother in the future.

 

Right now I don't care about my cables much. I use Mogami and whatever else I have around. For people with thousands of dollars worth of gear, $40 for some nice cables is no big deal.

 

I could have worded my comment about hating the Sennheisers with Canare a little better. I'm not a super huge fan of the HD-600, but do like it. Using it with Canare would not put it any further into my like category and sounds worse than stock in some areas. I won't try to explain why. You've never had a headphone where you felt you would have kept it if it was improved in one area just a little bit? The HD-600 is like that for me. It's good, but due to preferences I prefer the HD-650 now. I don't actually hate the HD-600. Sometimes my comments make it seem like I do. I just have other sound signature preferences.

 

Nobody has to take me seriously. I can't explain why I hear the things I do or what causes it. Every day I'm trying to figure out why things sound the way they do and sometime I'll be able to know why. This whole sound thing with headphones and cables is sometimes a big mystery to me. All cables should technically sound the same. So, why can't my 598 sound exactly like stock with Canare? Explain that. I told myself for a week I was just hearing things, but then it just sat in the closest until I switched to some other wire. I sure do wish the comment about "copper is copper" was really true. My HD-598 is using Mogami, which might be as close to the stock signature as you can get. That was my goal. I don't recable to change a headphones sound signature.

 

I actually would hope people just ignore what I say and try making their own cables or hear things with their own ears. Even if there is ZERO difference, what's so bad about that? Knowing how to solder is a good skill to have and I learned how just to recable my headphones! I don't bother making speaker cables because I can't tell an ounce of difference. Don't know why.

 

Here's some more "extreme" language for you. I'll let you figure out why. I only like the DJ100 unamped from a Clip+ using M50 pads. When using stock pads the bass is too bloated. Does someone want to guess why? I don't hate the DJ100 unamped, but prefer using it with a good amp. Desktop is best. Sure the DJ100 sounds good enough from some portable players.

 

All the differences I mention are usually very minor. Some of them so minor that most people might not care about. I do and I guess i'm a little too picky about getting my headphones to sound perfect.

 

Also..about the HD-580. Some say the HD-600 has better matched drivers. The key here is the grills! This changes the sound more than you'd think! Yes, the difference could be zero difference to some, but I think it's enough to make me prefer the HD-580 over the HD-600. It's actually less of a difference than switching from the K702 to the Q701. Neither is better overall, just that I prefer the HD-580. It's a VERY slightly more aggressive sounding HD-600, but it has less bass and a tiny bit more forward upper mids. I'm not going to do any scientific test to prove this, but even the graphs show a bit of difference.

 

BTW I do feel that some MIGHT just be repeating the snake oil comment based on what others have said without trying it for themselves. No big deal. Again, I won't be buying any fancy cables. I did a few times, but I kept using stock cables. For a headphone I might be using for 10 years, $200 for a slight improvement is no big deal. Actually, I think $200 is a bit overkill for me. I figure 75% of that is in labor markups!

 

If someone wants to do me a favor, they can tell me why my HD-600 gets so much louder out of my amp when using Double Helix headphone cables and interconnects. I could get such loud volumes it would rupture my eardrum. I experienced this with portable devices too. When using regular old cables the volume isn't as high. This is just so bizarre. I'll measure it for you if you want biggrin.gif I think i'll need to become an electrical engineer to explain everything I'm hearing. It seems nobody ever points out stuff like this. I know the difference has to be more than 1db.

 

Why is high capacitance wire warmer sounding and low capacitance wire thinner and brighter? This I would love to know. Don't tell me it's all in my head. This is always the biggest difference for me. No major changes in it's sound signature. How would this show up on graphs anyway? The HD-600 and DT-880 often measured the same (in old graphs) and couldn't sound any more different.

 

Why also do people prefer silver with the HD-650?

 

Another thing I'd love to sometime figure out is why the differences between cables is less noticeable with different gear? With my Total Airhead and portable players it's amazing how similar they sound. I remember when I didn't have my HRT MSII DAC I couldn't tell an ounce of difference between K702 cables. ZERO. If I was using only a portable amp and Ipod with my HD-600 I'd never buy any fancy cable. I do have a HD-600 Double Helix cable Zombie_X made me and felt it was worth it, but on the HD-650 it makes everything a bit clearer and thinner. Otherwise the same. I know why, but won't go there. I prefer stock for it's extra warmth, but have been switching to the DHC for gaming lately.


Edited by tdockweiler - 12/11/12 at 5:58pm
post #2327 of 8413

@tdockweiler:

 

Fair enough. Hope I didn't sound like too much of a dickhole in my earlier posts. But I stand by what I said. :)

 

I don't think the graphs for the HD600 and DT880 would ever look similar unless they were inaccurate. Like the rest of the DT series the 880 has a *huge* treble spike. Its the polar opposite of the HD600 in the highs and also has significantly different mids (quite recessed in relation to the HD600s). Given those facts I don't think the HD600 and DT880 could ever sound or measure similarly regardless of the setup.

post #2328 of 8413

every item in the gear-set affects the sound, audibly or inaudibly...

from the wallpower all the way to the earwax..to that glass/brand of vodka.:P

Once u arrive at the alchemic synergy, the champagne pops.

everyone here is entitled to share their peculiar experiences...

from the tonedeaf to the supersensitive...the scientists to the fumblers like me..

I appreciate all who love usbcables and all who hates them. haaaa.

 

the cardas$$ on the hd600 works for me.

go and get it.

 

someone gave me a bot of Tanqueray gin...

nope, didnt work with my hd600.

 

Folks, enjoy your hobby!!

beerchug.gif

post #2329 of 8413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorspeaker View Post

every item in the gear-set affects the sound, audibly or inaudibly...

from the wallpower all the way to the earwax..to that glass/brand of vodka.:P

Once u arrive at the alchemic synergy, the champagne pops.

everyone here is entitled to share their peculiar experiences...

from the tonedeaf to the supersensitive...the scientists to the fumblers like me..

I appreciate all who love usbcables and all who hates them. haaaa.

 

the cardas$$ on the hd600 works for me.

go and get it.

 

someone gave me a bot of Tanqueray gin...

nope, didnt work with my hd600.

 

Folks, enjoy your hobby!!

beerchug.gif

 

It's also interesting how  a headphone can often sound much worse due to stress, allergies, congestion, ear wax and just being tired.

 

I actually once even had my amp sounding a little worse than it should be by having it plugged into a huge surge protector with too much noise filtering. Can't explain that one. Some guy had said it was "starving" the amp of power and I thought that was good for a laugh. Maybe he's not too far off. The differences were only detectable with ONE headphone. Not even kidding. Yet the noise filter was claimed to improve the sound. Maybe it's just defective.

 

I remember the first day of using the ODAC was absolutely awful. I never would have though that my desktop USB ports were so crappy that it made my ODAC sound bad!

 

One thing I've learned now is that I HATE doing A/B comparisons. If I can listen to a headphone a month without any complaint, then I know I have a keeper. I really need to avoid over-analyzing things and just listen to my dang music.

 

Now I'm not yet convinced on USB cables other than length. I'll stick to high quality Monprice USB and HDMI cables. I do prefer those without ferrite cores, but I'll sound like a fool if I tell you why! Now THAT has to be my brain playing tricks on me. Thankfully you won't see me doing USB cable "sound" reviews..ugh. Yep I know about all that 1's and 0's stuff. normal_smile%20.gif

post #2330 of 8413
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdockweiler View Post

Now I'm not yet convinced on USB cables other than length. I'll stick to high quality Monprice USB and HDMI cables. I do prefer those without ferrite cores, but I'll sound like a fool if I tell you why! Now THAT has to be my brain playing tricks on me. Thankfully you won't see me doing USB cable "sound" reviews..ugh. Yep I know about all that 1's and 0's stuff. normal_smile%20.gif

 

Yeah I've never understood the USB cable arguments. Its a digital transfer. Unless the 1's and 0's going into the cable are different from those coming out then, technically, there can be no difference. But whatever. I'm not interested in getting into arguments with the USB cable people haha. :)

post #2331 of 8413

I must admit.... every time I read an audiophile magazine and am bombarded by the numerous adverts for ridiculously expensive interconnects I can't help but think 'snake oil'.

 

"Hey, George Martin and Abbey Road Studios don't need our cables..... But you do!"

 

::sigh::

post #2332 of 8413
Quote:
Originally Posted by devhen View Post

 

Yeah I've never understood the USB cable arguments. Its a digital transfer. Unless the 1's and 0's going into the cable are different from those coming out then, technically, there can be no difference. But whatever. I'm not interested in getting into arguments with the USB cable people haha. :)

 

I've had a talk with a mate and we discussed the possibility of the square wave signals doesn't arrive as sharply in a bad conductor, leading to differences in sound... Which we think it makes sense, but it has to be a really really really bad conductor ;)

post #2333 of 8413

Anyone here who has a picture of the HD600's driver? I have this printed on my right driver:

 

Quote:
01 10 11
600129
minisys

 

I'd like to know if my unit is genuine or not... I bought mine from Amazon but it came with no manuals and warranty card. The stock cable was also shorted (sound in one channel is heard in both drivers). I've had the cable replaced with an HD650 cable and it's working and sounding good now, but I'd still like to verify if it's genuine.

 

Amazon offered to replace it for free (including shipping) but since I can't wait about a month for it to be replaced (I'm from the Philipines), I decided to keep it.

 

EDIT: I did some Google-fu and this came up. The guy says that the driver I have is the same as the one found in his HD650. This japanese blog post says we have the same drivers as his HD600. Hmm. 


Edited by doomsweek - 12/12/12 at 2:14am
post #2334 of 8413

Well at least you can call your Sennies a 'Mini's', quite a nice little name for an able headphone ;)

post #2335 of 8413

@tdockweiler  - I went through this exercise a while ago when I was a cable skeptic ....  the greater the capacitance between the wires, the more the system will act like a low pass filter .... that is the "capacitors" will shunt the higher frequencies away from the headphone, making it appear less bright  (less on the highs, more on the lows).

 

The only problem is, when I was approaching this academically, plugging in real-world values doesn't yield appreciable results until up around 100 KHz, well beyond human hearing.  So, I didn't buy into it.  Until I heard it for myself with a high end setup in a controlled environment.  So, I'm just going to assume my theoretical analysis was correct but the numbers I plugged in weren't quite right.

 

Unless it's skin effect.  At higher frequencies, the current travels through a decreasing effective diameter of wire (around the skin), increasing the effective impedance of the cable at those higher frequencies.  Except theoretically, these skin effects are supposed to be negligible until much higher frequencies.

 

(shrugs shoulders)

 

post #2336 of 8413
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobJS View Post

@tdockweiler  - I went through this exercise a while ago when I was a cable skeptic ....  the greater the capacitance between the wires, the more the system will act like a low pass filter .... that is the "capacitors" will shunt the higher frequencies away from the headphone, making it appear less bright  (less on the highs, more on the lows).

The only problem is, when I was approaching this academically, plugging in real-world values doesn't yield appreciable results until up around 100 KHz, well beyond human hearing.  So, I didn't buy into it.  Until I heard it for myself with a high end setup in a controlled environment.  So, I'm just going to assume my theoretical analysis was correct but the numbers I plugged in weren't quite right.

Unless it's skin effect.  At higher frequencies, the current travels through a decreasing effective diameter of wire (around the skin), increasing the effective impedance of the cable at those higher frequencies.  Except theoretically, these skin effects are supposed to be negligible until much higher frequencies.

(shrugs shoulders)

Your calculations are right, it shows that the bottleneck is in our hearing range instead of the low pass filter that existed in the cable
post #2337 of 8413
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomsweek View Post

 

I'd like to know if my unit is genuine or not... I bought mine from Amazon but it came with no manuals and warranty card.

 

It's genuine, but most likely refurbished, and badly too.

post #2338 of 8413

I was thinking about buying this can but I was wondering how it works for rock music? I don't only listen to rock I usually listen to everything but rock is my main genre. I'm worried that these might be a little too laid back for rock music, but I could be wrong. If anyone would like to help me with this I'd greatly appreciate it.

post #2339 of 8413

These sound good for most rock (classic, acoustic,etc.) I find them a little lacking with my current setup for more complex genres like metal or prog.  I use a Nuforce HDP fed via USB through a macbook running audirvana +.  I haven't tried better equipment to see how they respond though so YMMV.  

post #2340 of 8413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmstrmbn View Post

These sound good for most rock (classic, acoustic,etc.) I find them a little lacking with my current setup for more complex genres like metal or prog.  I use a Nuforce HDP fed via USB through a macbook running audirvana +.  I haven't tried better equipment to see how they respond though so YMMV.  

I don't listen to much metal or prog. So, I'm sure they will be fine for the kind of music I listen to. I usually jump around a bit so something that is good with most genre's is definetly nice.

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