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Sennheiser HD 600 Impressions Thread - Page 114

post #1696 of 17112

Good for you....hope you get them! Honestly, I wouldn't mind owning the hd800's myself. They'll make a MUCH bigger 'improvement' in your audio fidelity than a new cable, I'm sure. Enjoy the music happy_face1.gif


Edited by lejaz - 9/7/12 at 9:11am
post #1697 of 17112

they actually make kind of a bigger improvement, because of the transducers, i guess. the thing about the sounds arriving at the ear at the same time is probably the thing: it gives a three-dimensional sound image, like i hear more of the instrument's quality -- material sound, and that means i hear the fingering with a clarity that hadn't happened before: i can see him fingering the violin strings. maybe that's too much information for most people. i don't much care, since this is about the machines called HD600, a headphone, and not about us. i think the upgrade gives a clearer image, is all. if you don't need a clearer image, but maybe listen to a kind of music that's supposed to make your musical brain close down and your gonads quiver, then what's the need of the 600s in the first place? the grado's are engineered for tired middle-aged males and kids who think they should upgrade from pods.

 

the only way for you to know is to demo. the talk got heavy here when the joe started saying that radio shack attenuator cable was all you need for what i need. he didn't even ask what i need, just told me i was a jerk. i just don't understand how someone like that learned about the sennheisers as a music earphone. it must have been about ownership of expensive things. if joe's 25 buck headphone really was as good as the 600's i wouldn't be talking here. and, shack-attack, he's maybe thinking joe's are probably not that much worse, but that they're not elite?
 

post #1698 of 17112

Seriously, man, why do you have to be so rude and condescending?

post #1699 of 17112

because this is important to me, and so far people have just said that i'm an idiot elitist. i haven't seen anyone respond to the actual concept of what a headphone is and what music is to a headphone. if you want to say something interesting about psycho-acoustics or about the psychology of our relationship with composers and performers, then i won't sound rude to you if i write back and talk about what seemed to be really important to you to. maybe you wouldn't even think i was rude at all then, just trying to cut through the b.s.

 

i've been around audiophiles and boutique stuff-sellers since the 70's. sometimes, i just bought stuff because i hoped that i'd grow into hearing what the audiophile reviewers were talking about. then, i got into listening to one particular part of one recording on different speakers and with different cartridges. back then, it was about getting certain notes to not jump out, or getting other notes to not sound buzzy. when i found that there were some speakers and some cartridges that gave a clearer sound, then i started looking at amps and pre-amps. i bought the C2-B2 combination when it came out, but i was using crappy cable until hitachi came out with linear crystal in the mid-80's. the hi-fi store down from MIT sold their interconnects, and i rewired my ADS 1290's with the gut wire from the interconnects. the first CD player i heard was that first sony unit, and it actually burnt my ears it was so distorted. i got my 777es sacd when it came out because it was so good sounding, and at so much better a price point. do you remember mark levinson amps and tone control units back in the day? people'd go for no tone controls on the pre-amps, for purity, and then you'd buy the 'cello'? or 500$ speaker cables which mushed the sound down in lieu of a tone control on the pre?

 

there's a lot of things about audiophile which are vapour, but there's actual music and composers who write it, and i want that to be the criteria. i see that people attacking me for attitude don't attack me about the concepts, and that's retard here, since it's about machines making clean reproductions of sound images.

post #1700 of 17112

back in 1958, i'd listen to, say, sarah vaugh on KBIG avalon when it played all jazz. and, i'd listen on my little transistor or desk radio and i'd hear her voice, and that was pretty good. then, i got different and started wanting to hear what the piano sounded like under her voice. you get the image and associations? so, like, in this 78rpm transcription of a recording of this beethoven symphony, there's this horn part underneath, a couple of horns playing this thing over and over under the violins playing this other thing over and over -- and, i want to hear them in balance, hear both of them because that's what beethoven thought the music was supposed to sound like. in abject apology to whomever said it was up to the audience to interpret the music as real, they could be home listening to the faucet drip -- i mean, beethoven gave them something worth interpreting and they're there and not at a stones cover at the bar. the information is on the CD and you can find it by maybe tripping on acid or smoke; or, like me, can't do that stuff, and maybe have to have the sound clarified for you mechanically and not cosmically by getting something like a clean sound out of your hi-fi... i don't see that that should be such an odd concept here.

post #1701 of 17112

It's fine if you don't want to go to the sound science part of the forum. But the way you argue is really quite rude. Like "do you know this for a fact, or has rush limbaugh been talking about it on the radio?" " i respect you for that, but i suppose walmart doesn't sell tubed headphone amps" " i just don't understand how someone like that learned about the sennheisers as a music earphone" 

 

You're ignoring what other people are trying to say and just trying to apply labels on other people to imply they're low class.

post #1702 of 17112

Great article beginning on page 5 - "The 10 Biggest Lies in Audio"

 

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf

 

I'm all about enjoying music to its fullest, but I am opposed to the spreading of myths that somehow the experience is improved by hardwiring headphones to the line-out or using $100/ft wires.

 

Mike, I'm glad you have seen the light and admitted that better headphones, not cables, are what you need to improve your sound. Now all you need to do is ABX the line outs and the headphone jack and your journey will be complete.

post #1703 of 17112
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post

Great article beginning on page 5 - "The 10 Biggest Lies in Audio"

 

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf

 

That guy is an idiot. He should call himself  "The Audio Crackhead".

post #1704 of 17112
Why do you say that?

I admit I am not a follower of this publication, but I thought the article I referenced on page 5 was accurate enough.
post #1705 of 17112

"You're ignoring what other people are trying to say and just trying to apply labels on other people to imply they're low class."

 

i was getting the impression that people thought i was the low class new comer trying to wow everyone with my so expensive gear. am i supposed to be concerned, when what i got from the first is that 'we just like music, you're an obsessive freak!' -- and, what i'm saying is that for most cases, according to the responses i'm getting, i don't see why they'd need such an expensive headphone in the first place. and, then to work on me that my Jana Lab replacement cables were too much, too expensive and all.

 

you absolutely can't do science without data. you can't hear the difference between jena cable and radio shack without auditioning them. you're all coming off like true believers in the holy spirit, don't need to spend, but you want to spend at least 300$ on headphones? ones which, evidently, you're just guessing are better than the 25 dollar kind.

 

for me, the reality of music is classical music, where the music is written without any concern but for pure sound and the invention of sound into our human space. disco is fine, but it's too limited. to hear polyphonically, you need a very clear sounding system. you can get that by direct wiring your wires to your units ( not spending a hundred bucks on interconnect RCA's or Balanced or whatever, ) and not spending 500$ bucks or way more on a coloring device to push your CD input to mushy but so present levels. that's a savings so far of maybe 600 dollars. you don't need expensive tone controls to tame your hot input, because the imput isn't hot, it's the devices -- the tube amps, for instance, which totally color up the signal and push certain frequencies.

 

if you want only an anodyne rich-person's playboy pad sound, then you'll probably want the glow LED's to show how wonderful your system is. then, too, some cone feet for your CD player, cause it was maybe not sounding as caramel smooth as it should, maybe a little too citric and minty. also, maybe for your ten feet of special after market cabling for your 600's, some silver thrown in to make the sound a little more 'silvery'. you think i'm elitist because i want only a pure sound? think again about what you need from a signal and what it's going to do for you, and why you need to hear music all the time in the first place. if you like music, only talk to it when you're on the top of your IQ, cause it's just as smart as you are and wants you to listen to it.

post #1706 of 17112
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikebauer
 i mean, beethoven gave them something worth interpreting and they're there and not at a stones cover at the bar. the information is on the CD and you can find it by maybe tripping on acid or smoke

 

OK, now I get it..

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by palmfish View Post

Why do you say that?
I admit I am not a follower of this publication, but I thought the article I referenced on page 5 was accurate enough.

 

It's somewhat accurate to a science teacher as opposed to a musician or listener.

post #1707 of 17112

mikebauer: "don't need to spend, but you want to spend at least 300$ on headphones? ones which, evidently, you're just guessing are better than the 25 dollar kind." 

 I've been a semi-pro musician for more decades than I'd like to admit to, so I know what a trumpet or a tympani(I used to play them) sounds like live. I'm not getting the total 'mush' you claim I'm getting when I listen on my hd580s with stock cable and plug and $150 amplifier. I'm getting very close to what I heard when I played live. With the dt48 I can get even closer to 'live' with some brass and percussion instruments....and vocals. With a $25 headphone I'm obviously not getting as close. If I had money to burn I'd buy the hd800. Who wouldn't? Your notion that only people who listen to Madonna, or god forbid, John Lennon, or who are high on drugs, could be happy with stock plugs and cables, and a set up such as the one I'm using, is what's ticking people off. It's your condescending tone. As if others are listening to 'sludge'(hd600 used to be TOTL, I think)... that they don't have the discernment or exquisite hearing to know what live music should sound like, and that no one understands your concept of a 'clear signal' (signal to what? a recording that has already been compromised by less than perfect cables and plugs and audio components?) Oh well, to each his own. May you succeed on your path to audio Nirvana. 

post #1708 of 17112
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikebauer View Post

"You're ignoring what other people are trying to say and just trying to apply labels on other people to imply they're low class."

 

i was getting the impression that people thought i was the low class new comer trying to wow everyone with my so expensive gear. am i supposed to be concerned, when what i got from the first is that 'we just like music, you're an obsessive freak!' -- and, what i'm saying is that for most cases, according to the responses i'm getting, i don't see why they'd need such an expensive headphone in the first place. and, then to work on me that my Jana Lab replacement cables were too much, too expensive and all.

 

you absolutely can't do science without data. you can't hear the difference between jena cable and radio shack without auditioning them. you're all coming off like true believers in the holy spirit, don't need to spend, but you want to spend at least 300$ on headphones? ones which, evidently, you're just guessing are better than the 25 dollar kind.

 

 

 

You got the wrong impression.

 

I never thought you were a low class newcomer, and I never called you a jerk.

 

But, when your first introduced yourself, you told us all that you were direct wiring your headphones to your CD player (no explanation of where (line outs, amp output, inside the case in front of the headphone jack?). Then you said you had rheostats in line with the cable for volume control. You didn't even tell us what kind of CD player you had.

 

Naturally, in order to try and help you (because you did come across like you were asking for advice/help), I asked you some more specific questions about what you were doing and why you were doing it. You must have taken this the wrong way, but when I posted the picture of the volume control cable, it was because I assumed (wrongly) that your CD player didn't have a built in volume control and that was why you were hard wiring your headphones.

 

I think this entire discussion has been one misunderstanding after another because instead of seeing the questions people were asking at face value, you instead got defensive and started waxing poetically about sound, and the composers intentions, and purity, etc.

 

And while I still don't agree with your logic for hard wiring your headphones (I mean, it's a $3000 CD player, if you trust the quality of all of the other components inside the case, why do you doubt the headphone jack), I have never said you are an idiot or a jerk. And I am serious about the wiring inside your CD player - have you looked at it? It's the some stuff they sell at Radio Shack, which someone your age must know has been and continues to be a respectable source for electronic components.

 

Now unfortunately, this discussion has really turned into a subjective vs. objective debate, and it doesn't belong here. There is room for both objectivity and subjectivity in audio, but that line will always be different for everyone. That being the case, headphones, DACs, wires, and power supplies are not musical instruments. A musician or listener might appreciate and enjoy the sounds that these devices create on a deeply emotional level, but that doesn't mean that these devices defy the physical laws of nature. Impedance, capacitance, voltage, current, conductivity, ohms law - if you wish to discuss the emotional qualities of reproducing audio recordings in your home, then I think you should be willing to talk about the "science teacher" part of it too. To deny the science part of the equation is to become vulnerable to people who would have you believe that they can sell you emotions.

 

And where better than head-fi can you go and find people willing to tell you that your $400 amp doesn't have "synergy" with your headphones and you need to buy this $800 amp instead? How many of us who have been around here for a while have seen ridiculous recommendations for people to buy ridiculous accessories? I don't troll the forums looking for targets, but on the threads that I do follow, if I see a new member asking for advice, I try to play Devil's advocate and caution them from spending money on something before they have researched it. As a new member Mike, with an unusual first post, I told you my opinion on what I thought about your scheme. I was being honest and I stand by my opinions.

 

Remember, you came here asking for opinions. Nobody hunted you down and attacked your passion - you asked for advice and I responded. Your response was a condescending rant about radio Shack CD players, popular music, listening habits, etc. and it was simply inappropriate. In fact, if you had been more articulate in the first place with what you were doing and asking (remember, you came here unsolicited with a question), you might have gotten more input from others - lurkers who were turned away by the divisive attitudes you cultivated.

 

Finally, you may not believe this, but I have been a musician and music lover my entire life. Ever since my parents gave me my first stereo system in 1971 (a Heathkit tube amp and Dual turntable - and hand me down LP's of Roger Voisin playing Baroque trumpet and Bruno Walter conducting Mahler's 1st) and my first violin lesson in 1972. I am able to appreciate and thoroughly enjoy beautiful music from Sibelius to Santana during a live performance and also reproduced on my audio equipment in my home. I have no expectations that a pair of headphones or loudspeakers can or will ever accurately reproduce a live performance, but I do enjoy them for the unique experience they do offer.

 

I am both an objectivist and a subjectivist. The difference being that before I believe and submit to a subjective opinion, I back it up with objective facts first. This is my way of stacking the odds in my favor that I am getting what I want. I have an undergraduate degree in psychology, with an emphasis on social psychology and group dynamics. I know how easily we are fooled and swayed by opinion and the words/actions of others. We like to think that we are too smart to be swayed by others, but we are all vulnerable - our brains are hard-wired that way. Likewise our brains are easily fooled by our senses. Our eyes and ears filter and distort our world around us constantly without us ever being aware of it. You might swear you saw something that doesn't exist. You might hear something that never uttered a sound, and you will be absolutely certain that you saw it or heard it. In the time it takes to swap a cable, you have forgotten all of the subtle nuances of sound that we are talking about.

 

Have you ever heard of the McGurk Effect? Check it out...it is surprising. Even though you know in advance exactly what is going to happen, your brain will still be fooled. There's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

 

And after all the scientific references I have mentioned backing up my claims, you still haven't told me WHY hard-wring a headphone to your CD player sounds better than plugging it into the headphone jack. In my opinion, that is a scientific discussion that can only be explained by basic electrical theory, not emotional hyperbole.


Edited by palmfish - 9/7/12 at 6:56pm
post #1709 of 17112
Quote:

Originally Posted by mikebauer View Post

 

"for me, the reality of music is classical music, where the music is written without any concern but for pure sound and the invention of sound into our human space."

 

Mike, I couldn't disagree with you more on this one. Music - all kinds of music including classical music, isn't about the invention of sound. It is about emotion - a story. Joy, sadness, jubilation, jealousy, fear. All of it. What do you think was going through Beethoven's mind when he wrote his 9th Symphony? Or Dvorak with his "New World Symphony?" Was Sibelius simply inventing sound when he wrote "Finlandia?" How about Wagner's Ring Cycle or Mozart's Requiem?

 

"A poem, in my opinion, is opposed to a work of science by having, for its immediate object, pleasure, not truth; to romance, by having, for its object, an indefinite instead of a definite pleasure, being a poem only so far as this object is attained; romance presenting perceptible images with definite, poetry with indefinite sensations, to which end music is an essential, since the comprehension of sweet sound is our most indefinite conception. Music, when combined with a pleasurable idea, is poetry; music, without the idea, is simply music; the idea, without the music, is prose, from its very definitiveness"  - Edgar Allen Poe

 

"you need a very clear sounding system. you can get that by direct wiring your wires to your units not spending a hundred bucks on interconnect RCA's or Balanced or whatever...also, maybe for your ten feet of special after market cabling for your 600's, some silver thrown in to make the sound a little more 'silvery'."

 

OK, help me out with this one. In prior posts you have mentioned the virtues of (Jena Labs) cables in your search for "a pure bright and complete headphone sound." You have admitted to spending hundreds of dollars purchasing boutique cables of your very own and claim they are "so much clearer than any other cable i've used." And yet, now you discount the benefit of "spending a hundred bucks on interconnect RCA's" and mock those who believe that silver cable sounds "a little more silvery?'" Linear Crystal mic cables are great but "cone feet for your CD player" are snake oil? Come on...

 


Edited by palmfish - 9/7/12 at 9:18pm
post #1710 of 17112

I'm in love with the HD600 again. ODAC, O2 and HD600... How can it be possible to get such good sound at such a deal?! 

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