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Calling All "Vintage" Integrated/Receiver Owners - Page 220

post #3286 of 16769
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardgedee View Post

Quote:

 

I like the styling of the old NAD systems. It's something you don't often see any more, even in current NAD product.

 

The inspiration is Dieter Rams' work for Braun rather than American hi-fi, and if it doesn't look vintage it's because Rams' designs are timeless. The Braun examples below are from the early 60s and late 60s, respectively, but neither would look like throwbacks if you put 'em in stores today:

 

8faa_12_sb1.jpg?w=655

Braun RT-20 triband radio

 

3916185547_ba5900fffc_o.jpg

Braun tuner (don't know the model number)

 

Wow, I just notice the harmonic design of NAD after you pointed out. They really pay attention to details even though they don't have metal knobs.

 

Those Braun look stunning! Is Braun the same company which made ADS speakers? Their Braun speakers are superb too!!! 
 

 

post #3287 of 16769

Worth a thousand words.

The single microphone gets overwhelmed by the Bass at times,all six speakers pushing sound.
Neglected to set the focus properly on the camera,the angle is misleading as well,in terms of perspective.
Tone selectors were engaged on all preamplifiers +1 Treble/+2 Midrange/+1 Bass.
Best to use a separate recorder,PC cards are noisy for recordings.

Just to demonstrate what you can get out of these vintage pieces,I loaded one compilation file 16/44.1 @ 320kbps onto a FAT32 USB thumbdrive.
All original full version songs were recorded at the same rates using audio software to merge the five song intros into one file.
Plugged it into a Pioneer DVD player with a usb input that will play .mp3 @320kbps
S/PDIF out to the DAC,then into an RCA powered switchbox that allows all three preamplifiers to receive the same signal.
So,this should be as 'bad' as electronic files might be,yet the sound still rumbles out of the old gear with aplomb,I think.

Remember,the video was stripped of its original camera audio and the 'live' audio recording of the Vintage Stereo was inserted.
Although the mic was six feet from the PC,there is still a bit of hiss,even though the MXL mic has XLR cable to the 1/4 inch jack on the front panel soundcard box.
For YouTube,the sound was downsampled to 192kbps and the video encoded in HD H.264/ MPEG-4 AVC Video (.mp4) @ 1280 * 720.

Headphones on,listen at 720HD.Enjoy.
Edited by 5aces - 12/1/11 at 3:17pm
post #3288 of 16769
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardgedee View Post

Quote:

 

I like the styling of the old NAD systems. It's something you don't often see any more, even in current NAD product.

 

The inspiration is Dieter Rams' work for Braun rather than American hi-fi, and if it doesn't look vintage it's because Rams' designs are timeless. The Braun examples below are from the early 60s and late 60s, respectively, but neither would look like throwbacks if you put 'em in stores today:

 

Braun RT-20 triband radio

 

Braun tuner (don't know the model number)

 

A NAD 1020 and two 7020.

 

Notice how the logos don't line up? That's because you'd never pair a 1020 (integrated amp) with a 7020 (receiver).

 

However, if you stack a 1020 3020 with a 4020 (tuner)...

 

That's why you hire industrial designers, folks! The details are the point!

 

The earliest NAD products had the usual brushed aluminum faces and electronics-lab styling, but somewhere in the late 70s NAD rebooted itself. Not just the case designs, but the innards as well, favoring low-power amps with current reserve that it stuck with for years.

 

(Edit: After posting I poked around Google Images to look at more NAD products, and it looks like the logo moved all over the faceplate over the years. So much for my original assertion. However, within any family of components intended to be matched, the logo and controls were positioned uniformly and designed to harmonize, down to the LED colors. I'll settle for claiming I'm half-right, and the design matters anyway... :P )


Thanks for the insight, that stuff it very cool looking!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5aces View Post

Worth a thousand words.
The single microphone gets overwhelmed by the Bass at times,all six speakers pushing sound.
Neglected to set the focus properly on the camera,the angle is misleading as well,in terms of perspective.
Tone selectors were engaged on all preamplifiers +1 Treble/+2 Midrange/+1 Bass.
Best to use a separate recorder,PC cards are noisy for recordings.
Just to demonstrate what you can get out of these vintage pieces,I loaded one compilation file 16/44.1 @ 320kbps onto a FAT32 USB thumbdrive.
All original full version songs were recorded at the same rates using audio software to merge the five song intros into one file.
Plugged it into a Pioneer DVD player with a usb input that will play .mp3 @320kbps
S/PDIF out to the DAC,then into an RCA powered switchbox than allows all three preamplifiers to receive the same signal.
So,this should be as 'bad' as electronic files might be,yet the sound still rumbles out of the old gear with aplomb,I think.

Remember,the video was stripped of its original camera audio and the 'live' audio recording of the Vintage Stereo was inserted.
Although the mic was six feet from the PC,there is still a bit of hiss,even though the MXL mic has XLR cable to the 1/4 inch jack on the front panel soundcard box.
For YouTube,the sound was downsampled to 192kbps and the video encoded in HD H.264/ MPEG-4 AVC Video (.mp4) @ 1280 * 720.
Headphones on,turned up high.Enjoy.


Nice system, im waiting for another Sansui to fall from the sky and land on my Henredon.

 

post #3289 of 16769

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMarkRemains View Post

Your 7225PE is probably late '80s very early '90's . Geeze guys I think a 24 year old piece of electronics is pretty "vintage" but whatever. Break out the 88 RPM records then with a vitrola horn.


Thanks for the guesstimate on when the 7225PE was made...sounds about right since the store I usually buy my second hand gear from has very few '70s-era products in stock and has usually had a good number of late '80s NAD units on hand for sale compared to other manufacturers. 

 

As for when something could be considered "vintage", IIRC, some of the folks on this thread go by the "look" when defining what the term encompasses rather than just the year of make and as it so happens, most of the retro looks are pre-80's designs made in Japan but influenced by the Bauhaus School and European industrial designs to appeal to Westerners.  Also, some consideration is given to the vintage "sound" of those designs characterized by a warmer midrange tone or wider bandwidth, especially from SS amps. 

 

So to sum it up, "vintage" in the context of receivers has alot to do with the eyes and the ears of the beholders, along with the age (and weight) of the units....

 

Ardgedee: I am always amazed at your ability to pull audio arcana out of hats I never knew existed on the web....thanks for everything....
 

 

post #3290 of 16769

I enjoy doing it. This time I can blame my design training rather than any knowledge of electronics esoterica. Been fascinated by these things since I was a kid. I like the way new things look, but modern designs are the inheritors of classic designs, which I also like, and so it goes.

 

Dieter Rams' career has been seeing renewed interest these days, partly because of the influences he's evidently had on Apple products (google up "iphone calculator braun", heh), and partly because of a documentary about industrial design made a couple years ago that prominently featured him.

 

Bauhaus was an interesting phenomenon. It had a lot of influence on domestic tastes in Japan, too (where there had been a longstanding less-is-more esthetic in its design tradition), but I don't think that the Bauhaus design legacy had as long an influence on mass market items in the US as they did in Europe. If anything, it's only been trickling in relatively recently due to the success of Ikea and Apple, which leads to unrelated things being designed to appeal to people who like those things. That's probably better discussed on design-fi than here, though...

post #3291 of 16769
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5aces View Post

Worth a thousand words.
The single microphone gets overwhelmed by the Bass at times,all six speakers pushing sound.
Neglected to set the focus properly on the camera,the angle is misleading as well,in terms of perspective.
Tone selectors were engaged on all preamplifiers +1 Treble/+2 Midrange/+1 Bass.
Best to use a separate recorder,PC cards are noisy for recordings.
Just to demonstrate what you can get out of these vintage pieces,I loaded one compilation file 16/44.1 @ 320kbps onto a FAT32 USB thumbdrive.
All original full version songs were recorded at the same rates using audio software to merge the five song intros into one file.
Plugged it into a Pioneer DVD player with a usb input that will play .mp3 @320kbps
S/PDIF out to the DAC,then into an RCA powered switchbox than allows all three preamplifiers to receive the same signal.
So,this should be as 'bad' as electronic files might be,yet the sound still rumbles out of the old gear with aplomb,I think.

Remember,the video was stripped of its original camera audio and the 'live' audio recording of the Vintage Stereo was inserted.
Although the mic was six feet from the PC,there is still a bit of hiss,even though the MXL mic has XLR cable to the 1/4 inch jack on the front panel soundcard box.
For YouTube,the sound was downsampled to 192kbps and the video encoded in HD H.264/ MPEG-4 AVC Video (.mp4) @ 1280 * 720.
Headphones on,turned up high.Enjoy.

 is that a pioneer m25 ?

how is it compared to the au-20000 ?
 

 

post #3292 of 16769
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wharfrat View Post




I agree that power ratings alone are not surefire indicators of how well they will power most of the headphones out there, especially dynamic driver units. With respect to most dynamic driver units, your point is well taken.  But there is this experience of mine with the HK730 vs SX-1250 using the Thunderpants and HE-5s I have that leads me to think that power output does contribute to the "body" or robustness of certain frequencies, especially bass and midrange frequencies and to the imaging of instruments themselves.  The 730 just did not have the ability to drive those orthos, whereas the SX-1250 took them soaring.  Now, to be fair, the SX-1250 is near the TOTL in terms of build quality among the vintage units so there certainly are other factors that made it perform as well.  My deductive, but hardly educated, guess that power has something to do with it is bolstered somewhat by recent designs that have cropped up to drive the HE-6, namely the Lyr and the DarkStar units which are touted for their higher than usual output capacity.

I am sure there are other factors at play to explain my experience...but being a simpleton in these dangerous times of complexity, perhaps a few simple rules of thumb can be a source of comfort, neh?




That was where I was coming from...the looks.  Had no idea the NAD "power envelope" design went back that far, to the late 70's.  My NAD 7225PE has the usual greyish NAD lettering and the condition on the unit is way tooooooo "fresh" to have been that old....

it's most likely a better preamp section. the preamp section is what colors or gives the amp it's specific sound that you like. it always goes through the preamp before the power amp section. higher priced units had better built in pre-amps inside since they were always ''separates'' in one chassis but had some compromises in the tuner section to allow better pre-amp and power amp section. that's why they were so heavy and big also. they also had better/bigger power transformers. the power transformers inside matches impedances and blocks EMI. you got also different designs like mosfet and bipolar and so forth what effects overall sound and performance. whole bunch of stuff in the overall topology design that effects it.

i love using yamaha's myself cause they're receivers allowed you to kill the pre-amp/eq section except the gain/volume control and strictly use the power amp section. it's always the power amp section that measures ''flat'' and is ''straight wire with gain'' so to say but gets colored by specific topology design in the pre-amp section. i love yamaha's as well for being only amps around to drive low impedance speakers of 1-2ohm nominal and has true class A power amp sections for large current driving. no other brand were able to compete in my opinion with yamaha's raw horse power for low impedances. i love their power amps. only company i think that were capable of driving large amounts of current by design were old NAD power amps and Altec Lansing had a few legendary power amps as well. Krell and Levinson been around forever as well and still even to this day makes some beefy amps capable of driving 1ohm loads without breaking a sweat.

i always judge an amps power by how low of an impedance it can drive way i look at it cause how low of the impedance the amp can handle is more important then it's overall power rating@8ohms since i drive 3ohm nominal loads for speakers and so far lot of vintage yamaha(mostly 80's M-xx power amps and the Yamaha R-9 class A receiver) provide their capability of sound and low impedance driving. that' what i find important to me because solid state has no problem dealing with large voltages and will have no issues when a speaker spikes over 100ohms in certain frequencies. it's the amount of amps/current it can drive while keeping it's consent voltage rating is what's important.
post #3293 of 16769
Quote:
Originally Posted by singh View Post

 is that a pioneer m25 ? how is it compared to the au-20000 ?

I sought out the Pioneer M-22 for different reasons,opposed to the Sansui AU 20000,namely to explore 'horn' speaker sound.

On that basis,the Pioneer M-22 steps in and takes command.

Matched with the Klipsch Heresy II speakers,this combination produces almost no obvious horn sound in contrast to the big stadium sound that Klipsch horn speakers are noteable for.

It is a pleasing sound that can be listened to for many hours at close range.

This small,high quality class-A amplifier is more akin to a Sony TAN86 class-A or Dyna Stereo 35/70.

As you may know,there are no features apart from the on/off switch on the Pioneer M-22 power amplifier.

Comparing the sound to the 170W Sansui integrated amplifier is more of a speaker matching contest and when it comes to the horn loaded Klipsch,the Pioneer wins it for me.

When I have friends over to listen to the Sansui/JBL system or the Pioneer/Klipsch,it usually ends in a dead heat for preferred sound.
Sometimes the slightest edge goes to the Sansui/JBL match,if only because the Sansui plays louder at the same gain,as noted below.

I believe each individual is partial to the equipment they know or own.
The house sound each person listens to on a daily basis becomes familiar to them,perhaps contributing to a skewed sound perception upon looking at the equipment before listening.
We have a lot of good times playing different sources and music genres through each of the three systems and discussing/debating the sound.

I'll leave you with this quote from Roger-Russel's webpage:
"Differences are understandable.
An amplifier having 0.1% distortion and one having 0.001% distortion are clearly not the same but they are way below audibility.
An amplifier having a damping factor of 10 and one having a damping factor of 1000 are also not the same but once again the difference is not audible.

I have personally completed several blind A-B listening tests over the years between good amplifiers, tube or transistor.
Although I thought I could hear a difference each time, my choice was only correct about 50% of the time.
I have also conducted blind listening tests for other people.
I have learned how important it is to set the amplifier gains to be exactly equal and that the amplifiers should not be seen or identified for the listener.
The slightly louder amplifier often is preferred.
Comparison must be instantaneous or the listener forgets.
If the identity of the amplifiers is known, the listener often gets preoccupied with identifying which amplifier is playing instead of the sound quality.
The questions asked of the listener about the sound quality are also very important.
I even hide the speakers as well as the amplifiers behind an acoustically transparent curtain."

Edited by 5aces - 12/28/13 at 11:58am
post #3294 of 16769
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMarkRemains View Post

Your 7225PE is probably late '80s very early '90's . Geeze guys I think a 24 year old piece of electronics is pretty "vintage" but whatever. Break out the 88 RPM records then with a vitrola horn.



I own an NAD 7225PE that I purchased in the late 80's.   I'm using it right now.  Love the sound of this unit. It's definitely one piece of gear that will never be sold. Powers the LCD-2's also.

post #3295 of 16769

Hi,

 

I used to have the Lyr for the LCD-2 rev.1. Sold both.  I'm planning on trying the LCD-2 rev. 2.  Anyone think the Pioneer SX-737 is enough for it.

I also have Asgard and Marantz 2215B but I think, the Pioneer might be the best match.

 

 

post #3296 of 16769

Remember, headphone outs are always suspect until proven otherwise, even in vintage gear. When in doubt, connect directly to the speaker outs (make sure your DC offset is low to nil) or cobble up a simple pad. The "standard" (laughable, because in the analog days, yardsticks were made of rubber) output impedance for a headphone out was 120 ohms. You can always mod a pad or "coupler" to match your particular 'phones.

 

Ardgedee, I know a fellow industrial-design freak when I see one. A tip of the flat cap to you, sir. And now, let's all watch Oskar Schlemmer's Triadisches Ballett, with music by Hindemith, no less.

post #3297 of 16769
Quote:
Originally Posted by wualta View Post

Remember, headphone outs are always suspect until proven otherwise, even in vintage gear. When in doubt, connect directly to the speaker outs (make sure your DC offset is low to nil) or cobble up a simple pad. The "standard" (laughable, because in the analog days, yardsticks were made of rubber) output impedance for a headphone out was 120 ohms. You can always mod a pad or "coupler" to match your particular 'phones.

 

Ardgedee, I know a fellow industrial-design freak when I see one. A tip of the flat cap to you, sir. And now, let's all watch Oskar Schlemmer's Triadisches Ballett, with music by Hindemith, no less.


funny but you're right, since that's essentially what these are. I always felt I was somehow "protecting "my headphones by using the jack. They're just small speakers with (often) higher impedance.  I guess I need to step back every now and then. 

 

post #3298 of 16769
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorAnt View Post



I own an NAD 7225PE that I purchased in the late 80's.   I'm using it right now.  Love the sound of this unit. It's definitely one piece of gear that will never be sold. Powers the LCD-2's also.



I have two 7240PE's they do everything well. Amazing how well they drive towers. I do agree that the newer amps just don't stack up to the power of the (fiercely debated) vintage pieces. 

 

My parents had a really nice Sansui in the 70's very similar to the ones pictured on this thread. I think it still works. I'm a big believer in "buy good quality, once !" it's cheaper in the long run

post #3299 of 16769

for anyone interested there are two Pioneer Sx amps one SX1250-550.00 and a 1050 for 500 on audiogon in the receiver section. Figured I post incase someone was interested in those magnificent  receivers.

post #3300 of 16769
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMarkRemains View Post



I have two 7240PE's they do everything well. Amazing how well they drive towers. I do agree that the newer amps just don't stack up to the power of the (fiercely debated) vintage pieces. 

 

My parents had a really nice Sansui in the 70's very similar to the ones pictured on this thread. I think it still works. I'm a big believer in "buy good quality, once !" it's cheaper in the long run


In case anyone is looking for NAD service this place does it.  I've sent some inquiries to them and they seem to know the NAD line pretty well.  If you own a "PE" model and get the amp serviced they will mod the power supply for free removing the power restrictions the PE line imposes on its line.   

 

http://www.angelfire.com/art2/stereorepair117/NAD.htm

 

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