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Calling All "Vintage" Integrated/Receiver Owners - Page 859

post #12871 of 13886
Quote:
Originally Posted by .Sup View Post


Well Ive ran it from yesterday evening over night until today late afternoon when I got home from work. Playing music all that time but the sound is still pretty anaemic and dull. Not sure if if worth recapping at this point, I think its best I sell it and get another Yammie biggrin.gif
Its kind of ironic that HD800 with the NAD aren't bright enough for me...not that the Yammie is bright but its very...sweet sounding with lots of energy. I do get slight hum with HD800 but its so slight and I can only hear when music is paused that it doesn't bother me at all, and even slightly microphonic tubes bother me for example. I initially found a lot of hum with HD800 but its because the loudness know was turned all the way up, hum is in the highest frequencies.

Im not sorry I got the NAD, I really wanted to hear how it sounds but it only confirms I am really into Yamaha's sound signature ever since I got a receiver about 12 years ago. smily_headphones1.gif

Yup 'anaemic and dul' are the last words I'd use to describe the typical vintage NAD... Especially the PE models with the extra power. But they do have lower impedance out than 70's amps in general and so from my experience the HD800 do sound more full with the typical 70's 120 ohms output.

Tonality aside, It was only after a lot of comparisons with the NAD's that I realised my Pioneer's and Sansui's were giving out a little too much bloom at the bottom end with the 300ohm Senn's. This can sound great with electronic music or rock but not great with classical (and 95% of my listening is this).

 

A typical NAD should sound balanced but with a very slight tilt to warmth over neutral. But I must stress that the treble shouldn't suffer any dullness or veil, but quite the opposite. Only there won't be any glare or extra light. 

 

Anyways, shame you aren't happy with it bud and I feel partly responsible :(, but because of how you have described the sound it really must need some work :confused_face_2:

 

Just for the record, I've bought about 20 vintage amps now and only a quarter of them I've been very happy with... It's all part of the game and luck of the draw with these old machines. The outside of them may look great, but its the insides that matter..

 

Anyway's theres nothing wrong with Yammy's! I had one for a short while and it sounded super! 

 

Good luck next time and I do hope you keep up the vintage journey as it can be great fun and very rewarding. :)

post #12872 of 13886
Quote:
Originally Posted by LugBug1 View Post


Just for the record, I've bought about 20 vintage amps now and only a quarter of them I've been very happy with... It's all part of the game and luck of the draw with these old machines. The outside of them may look great, but its the insides that matter..

Exactly! I never have high hopes and sometimes I am positively surprised and sometimes not, you are only guilty of giving me good advices! smily_headphones1.gif
I just had to try that NAD and hear how its sounds, worth the money and money has not been lost.
I enjoy using vintage stuff and one thing is for sure - I won't be buying dedicated headphone amps unless its all-in-one with a DAC. They are expensive and while technically they are better I don't get the satisfaction compared to vintage. Vintage is just more fun to listen to and use and to think they belong to a different era, an era I was not a part of and now, I kinda, am puts a nice smile on my face. This has become my fav thread on this forum, very friendly and full of good advices and interesting info/pics.

smily_headphones1.gif
post #12873 of 13886

Best audio thread on the NET IMHO.  Love reading this stuff.

post #12874 of 13886

I started this on the Introductions Forum, but this thread might be a better place. I re-worded it a bit.

 

Hi I'm new here (third post). The kids are out of the house now, and I want to listen to my old vinyl records again. None of my equipment has been used for years and I'm looking for suggestions on whether to keep or replace. 

 

I have a Marantz 2220B Receiver and a pair of ElectroVoice Speakers bought new from Warehouse Sound Company in San Luis Obispo when I graduated from high school in 1975. The Garrard turntable is long gone. The set up had warm powerful sound which used to drive my parents nuts :).

 

The sound of the EV speakers was great, but they're too big for my house now unless they're really worth keeping. They have a 12” woofer, and made good plant stands back in the 1970’s (well protected from water of course) They’ve been stored in my garage. 

 

The Marantz has always been in the den (unused for at least 15 years).  I'm absolutely sure these items will need some sort of overhaul/tune-up due to age. I vaguely recall some sort of capacitor problem, but these haven't been used together in over 20 years, so I can't recall specifics.  I live in the San Francisco East Bay and have heard there’s a good place in Walnut Creek for repairs. Gotta find out where that is.

 

So are any of these worth overhauling and using again? I'm thinking yes on the Marantz.  Because of the size and age I'm thinking no on the speakers; can you folks make some recommendations for modern speakers that'd work well with the Marantz? And how about a replacement turntable? I just retired, so I'm trying to keep this project to about $1K.

 

One caveat: I have some hearing loss and have lost some of my high end hearing; don't need super performance gear because I won’t be able to hear it (and can't afford it anyway). 

 

Looking forward to your replies and opinions. I understand this is a headphone forum, but came here because several posters were talking enthusiastically about their old equipment. If one of your recommendations is for me to post elsewhere, that's perfectly ok, just tell me where. :)

post #12875 of 13886

Would definitely keep the 2220B. Probably needs a recap and DeoxIt bath though.

 

What model of Electro Voice speakers are they?

post #12876 of 13886

welcome, Gardy!

 

i think you've found the right thread for some good advice on your specific components.   lots of knowledge about audio components here on this thread (based on experience, not just opinions based on reviews that a friend-of-a-friend has read!)

 

i can't help you specifically, but just hang tight.  most everybody here are in different time zones, so the replies back won't be instant, but people here are always willing to help and share their knowledge.  they'll start jumping in.

 

look. ^  (the post just before mine).

 

it's started already.

 

welcome back to the fold.  (luckily, quite a lot of older gear was made well, using good components to start with and can still be enjoyed, most times with just minor work. some of this older stuff has qualities that are worth preserving, even if it does need some work).

 

not quite sure if the younger folks who are buying chinese-made gear these days will be able to enjoy the current stuff after two more generations).


Edited by terry parr - 7/8/14 at 9:41pm
post #12877 of 13886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardyloo View Post
 

I started this on the Introductions Forum, but this thread might be a better place. I re-worded it a bit.

 

Hi I'm new here (third post). The kids are out of the house now, and I want to listen to my old vinyl records again. None of my equipment has been used for years and I'm looking for suggestions on whether to keep or replace. 

 

I have a Marantz 2220B Receiver and a pair of ElectroVoice Speakers bought new from Warehouse Sound Company in San Luis Obispo when I graduated from high school in 1975. The Garrard turntable is long gone. The set up had warm powerful sound which used to drive my parents nuts :).

 

The sound of the EV speakers was great, but they're too big for my house now unless they're really worth keeping. They have a 12” woofer, and made good plant stands back in the 1970’s (well protected from water of course) They’ve been stored in my garage. 

 

The Marantz has always been in the den (unused for at least 15 years).  I'm absolutely sure these items will need some sort of overhaul/tune-up due to age. I vaguely recall some sort of capacitor problem, but these haven't been used together in over 20 years, so I can't recall specifics.  I live in the San Francisco East Bay and have heard there’s a good place in Walnut Creek for repairs. Gotta find out where that is.

 

So are any of these worth overhauling and using again? I'm thinking yes on the Marantz.  Because of the size and age I'm thinking no on the speakers; can you folks make some recommendations for modern speakers that'd work well with the Marantz? And how about a replacement turntable? I just retired, so I'm trying to keep this project to about $1K.

 

One caveat: I have some hearing loss and have lost some of my high end hearing; don't need super performance gear because I won’t be able to hear it (and can't afford it anyway). 

 

Looking forward to your replies and opinions. I understand this is a headphone forum, but came here because several posters were talking enthusiastically about their old equipment. If one of your recommendations is for me to post elsewhere, that's perfectly ok, just tell me where. :)

 

Welcome to another Bay Area audio guy.  I'm in the South Bay.  

 

Unless your receiver has a serious problem, you may be able to fix it yourself.  As others have said, DeOxit will come in handy for dirty controls (volume, tone controls, push buttons).  Since you're retired, the question is whether you want to get into learning some of this stuff yourself.  Things like checking offset/bias and cleaning your controls all aren't very hard.

 

Post here once you hook it up and let us know if there are any problems with the unit.

 

Since your receiver is about 20W, your speakers will have to be reasonably efficient if you want to listen at higher volumes or you have a larger room.  I don't know about your speakers - if you post model, we can tell you more.  But since your receiver is lower wattage, keep in mind that it's value (were you to resell) would be lower than that of a higher powered Marantz unit of the same vintage.  My point being that you may not want to spend (say) $200+ to fix/restore it unless you're sure that it's a keeper.  A simple repair by a shop may run you $50-100, and then another bad component may rear it's head soon thereafter.  A full re-cap by a shop will make it more reliable for the longer term, but that may run you >$200.  So before you sink any serious $ into the receiver, consider your speakers first.

 

If your speakers are working, you should just try them out with the Marantz and see what you think.  They may be fine and sound good - if all drivers are working, you could probably improve sound a bit by putting new capacitors in your crossovers.  This doesn't always help, but often it will if your speakers are old and used electrolytic caps.  Even if a driver appears to be bad, it *could* be a bad cap as well.  Replacing capacitors is also usually pretty straightforward.

 

As far as TT's, I like the Technics SL series - they seem reliable and sound good.  I have a SL-1700 that I got for about $125 - so they're not very expensive either.  I also have a Dual 1229, but unless it's been serviced well, there are more things that can go wrong.  Save some of your budget for a good cart/stylus if you have a lot of records - you can do fine for <$100 for cart/stylus, but of course you could also spend a whole lot more.  If you have a whole lot of records, a RCM (record cleaning machine) may also make sense.  

 

If you start to really get into the vintage electronics thing, check out audiokarma as well.  There are a lot of members here that are also there.

 

If you need any help, feel free to send me a message.  I'd be happy to help if I can.


Edited by captouch - 7/8/14 at 11:47pm
post #12878 of 13886

Excellent and helpful comments Captouch. I'm in the Concord area.

 

The speakers are Electro Voice ETR-18's 12 inch 3-way speakers.The last time they were hooked up many years ago I recall some capacitance cut-out, but it's been a long time. Without a TT, and almost no radio signal here against Mt Diablo, I'm not sure I'll hear anything by hooking them together. I have an old TEAC cassette player, but no cassettes anymore.  Reading on Audiokarma, FWIW they seem to be sneering at the ETR-18 speakers there, which doesn't bother me since I was 18 years old buying the stereo of my dreams back then. 

 

These days, I want to listen to the LP's on something that sounds decent, not the Crosley reproduction Combo set handed off when my parents moved to a retirement place. My records and that unit have never touched each other. Whatever I decide on, the audio set up will go back in our bedroom sized den, along with LP's, CD's, cookbooks, wine, other assorted media and a comfy chair, so space is limited and my spouse is pushing to get smaller speakers.

 

Way back when, I used to understand impedance matching and all that stuff I've forgotten. So I ordered a book from the library to bring me up to speed: "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms". I couldn't find a book in Dummies series, so if this one is too technical, I can use it as a sleep aid. But I dunno if I feel like working on the equipment myself. I guess I'm a bit scared I'll screw it up. Funny, I'm not afraid of the bees I keep in the backyard :)

 

Checking around the Bay Area, there's a vintage equipment repair shop in the South Bay, SER Electronics; and a guy in SF, Tone of Music, although he might be out of my price range. I buy a lot on Amazon.com and used equipment is fine if it's decent stuff that will last

post #12879 of 13886

A good pair of speakers that don't cost much are found here: http://www.stereophile.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-loudspeaker

 

You may want to consider these (or what ever the latest revision is) as they are small and highly regarded.  I bet they would sound real nice with the 2220B.

 

Good luck in your search.

post #12880 of 13886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardyloo View Post
 

Excellent and helpful comments Captouch. I'm in the Concord area.

 

The speakers are Electro Voice ETR-18's 12 inch 3-way speakers.The last time they were hooked up many years ago I recall some capacitance cut-out, but it's been a long time. Without a TT, and almost no radio signal here against Mt Diablo, I'm not sure I'll hear anything by hooking them together. I have an old TEAC cassette player, but no cassettes anymore.  Reading on Audiokarma, FWIW they seem to be sneering at the ETR-18 speakers there, which doesn't bother me since I was 18 years old buying the stereo of my dreams back then. 

 

These days, I want to listen to the LP's on something that sounds decent, not the Crosley reproduction Combo set handed off when my parents moved to a retirement place. My records and that unit have never touched each other. Whatever I decide on, the audio set up will go back in our bedroom sized den, along with LP's, CD's, cookbooks, wine, other assorted media and a comfy chair, so space is limited and my spouse is pushing to get smaller speakers.

 

Way back when, I used to understand impedance matching and all that stuff I've forgotten. So I ordered a book from the library to bring me up to speed: "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms". I couldn't find a book in Dummies series, so if this one is too technical, I can use it as a sleep aid. But I dunno if I feel like working on the equipment myself. I guess I'm a bit scared I'll screw it up. Funny, I'm not afraid of the bees I keep in the backyard :)

 

Checking around the Bay Area, there's a vintage equipment repair shop in the South Bay, SER Electronics; and a guy in SF, Tone of Music, although he might be out of my price range. I buy a lot on Amazon.com and used equipment is fine if it's decent stuff that will last

 

I haven't heard them, but I agree with SpeakerBox that the Pioneers would be a good option to check out - good bang for buck I've heard.  If you want to stay vintage, Dynaco A25's are nice sounding classic large bookshelf-sized speakers that would probably run you $200 or so.

 

No CD player to try and hook up to the Marantz?  If your speakers can't conveniently be hooked up to the receiver, you can also use headphones to see whether you're getting sound out of both channels and roughly what the sound quality is (fine vs distorted, etc).  The headphone output is just a resistor drop from the regular speaker outputs, so if the headphone output is working well, you generally won't have problems with the speaker outputs.

 

I looked at the service manual for the 2220B - adjusting bias and offset isn't hard since you're just clipping on to pins and turning variable R's, but if you're not comfortable, I wouldn't try it.  People have been known to damage things and I'd hate to encourage you to do something that resulted in a working receiver conjuring smoke and sparks.  :)

 

I've heard good things about Sertech, but never used them.  If you're ever in the South Bay and want to tote the receiver, I could help you with these adjustments.

post #12881 of 13886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardyloo View Post
  Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Excellent and helpful comments Captouch. I'm in the Concord area.

 

The speakers are Electro Voice ETR-18's 12 inch 3-way speakers.The last time they were hooked up many years ago I recall some capacitance cut-out, but it's been a long time. Without a TT, and almost no radio signal here against Mt Diablo, I'm not sure I'll hear anything by hooking them together. I have an old TEAC cassette player, but no cassettes anymore.  Reading on Audiokarma, FWIW they seem to be sneering at the ETR-18 speakers there, which doesn't bother me since I was 18 years old buying the stereo of my dreams back then. 

 

These days, I want to listen to the LP's on something that sounds decent, not the Crosley reproduction Combo set handed off when my parents moved to a retirement place. My records and that unit have never touched each other. Whatever I decide on, the audio set up will go back in our bedroom sized den, along with LP's, CD's, cookbooks, wine, other assorted media and a comfy chair, so space is limited and my spouse is pushing to get smaller speakers.

 

Way back when, I used to understand impedance matching and all that stuff I've forgotten. So I ordered a book from the library to bring me up to speed: "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms". I couldn't find a book in Dummies series, so if this one is too technical, I can use it as a sleep aid. But I dunno if I feel like working on the equipment myself. I guess I'm a bit scared I'll screw it up. Funny, I'm not afraid of the bees I keep in the backyard :)

 

Checking around the Bay Area, there's a vintage equipment repair shop in the South Bay, SER Electronics; and a guy in SF, Tone of Music, although he might be out of my price range. I buy a lot on Amazon.com and used equipment is fine if it's decent stuff that will last

:wink_face: There's also Stereo Doctor in San Ramon. I'm a former and satisfied customer.

post #12882 of 13886

Thanks for the tips about the Pioneers, I'll have to check them out. I especially liked the review comparison to the Wharfedales, those were some I've also heard rave reviews about. I need to check their power requirements.

post #12883 of 13886

I've never done a real comparison of my receivers and integrateds, so with the prodding of a friend, I'm going to do some A/B comparisons of five 25-30W SS and tube receivers/integrateds, and throw in a couple of 50-55W receivers and maybe one 12W tube integrated (not sure about the last one - may not be a fair fight, but would even up the numbers).

 

The lightweight contenders will be:
Marantz 1060
Yamaha CA-600
Sony STR-6055
Fisher KX-100
Scott LK-72

 

The middleweights thrown into the mix will be:
Sansui Eight Deluxe
Mac 1900

 

The one flyweight that may be thrown in to even up the numbers:
Harman Kardon A300

 

I'm going to pair up two units as color coded in the spreadsheet, A/B compare them, and declare a "winner".  The winners will move on to complete with another winner, and so on, until there's only 1 left.

 

 

Disclaimer: Not all units are recapped, power tubes are not all the same brand/vintage in the tube units (though I think all 12AX7 preamp tubes are all Teles and most coupling caps are K40 PIO's), and outcome will be influenced by speakers used, my preferred sound, etc.  So this is just for fun, not to conclude that one unit is inherently better than the other.  And it's occurred to me that I may not be able to discern big differences and may end up saying "they all sound good", but hopefully not.  Testing won't be blind, but I don't have any biases I'm aware of (i.e. I don't really care which one comes out on top).

 

I'm leaning toward using Yamaha NS-690 II speakers as my test speakers, though IMF RSPM IV's will be connected to the amp/speaker switch as well, so I may listen to those as a secondary comparison.

 

Other speakers I could use instead of the Yamahas are IMF TLS 50 II's, Wharfedale W70E's, or ESS amt-1b's, but I'm thinking the Yamahas will be the most neutral/flat to compare characteristics of the receivers/integrateds as much as possible, instead of having the characteristics of the speakers dominate.

 

I'm open to suggestions on methodology or using other test speakers than the Yamahas.  I plan to do this tomorrow. . .

post #12884 of 13886
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeakerBox View Post
 

A good pair of speakers that don't cost much are found here: http://www.stereophile.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs22-lr-loudspeaker

 

You may want to consider these (or what ever the latest revision is) as they are small and highly regarded.  I bet they would sound real nice with the 2220B.

 

Good luck in your search.

They are highly regarded but I don't know why. I bought a pair at Best Buy last year and they were on sale for $99. The reviews I read were all positive (in hindsight, the reviews were all from professional reviewers/publications) and I know BB has a good return policy so I figured what the heck. I got home and excitedly set them up, turned on the receiver and was prepared to be wowed, except I wasn't. To my ears they lack treble by a noticeable margin. After a while, I even called my wife (who sometimes wonders what was wrong with the boom box we had many years ago as a "home stereo") into the room to listen, and with no input from me she said, "It seems like a lot of the high parts are missing". I took them back the next day. And please, don't talk to me about "burn in", it doesn't exist but one's ears and brain do become accustomed to to a particular sound.

 

All that to say, make sure what ever you buy comes from someplace with a good return policy or better yet, don't buy until you can hear them in a store or someone else's house.

post #12885 of 13886
Quote:
Originally Posted by captouch View Post
 

Great idea captouch! I shall be tuning into this :popcorn:

 

Yes neutral speakers will be best me thinks. Also, maybe 5 pieces of music across the board- rock/pop, orchestral, piano, electronic, Jazz/acoustic?

 

enjoy! 

 

For some reason I'm imagining an X Factor type panel with Skylab, Moody, PheonixG, SpeakerBox, analogsurviver.... And me and Silent One hosting the show hahah (yes I really should get out more :biggrin:)

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