SACD player - headphone amp

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Quote:

Originally Posted by labrat 

Depends very much on your CD/SACD player!

Most have all the decoded, analog, multi-channel outputs plus a set of analog R- or  L-channel outputs.

The multi-channel outputs are from the SACD-layer info on the CD, the analog R- and L-channel outputs are from the standard CD layer of a CD or a Hybrid SACD.

Some have a digital out, which is normally from the CD-layer.

The SACD High Definition info is never sent out undecoded digitally, unless maybe in some newer players with HDMI-output.

So playing the SACD info, High Definition info in a Stereo headphone amplifier is not yet possible.

You can take the two Left and Right front analog outputs from the multi channel outputs, but you still will not get all the High Definition info from the SACD recording.

Absolutely WRONG

This is complete misinformation

The analog outs from an SACD player will output SACD information as long as you select the correct layer on the SACD.

There are three variations to SACD's

First is Stereo SACD only, like some of the older release SACDs which have only one layer which is a stereo recording in SACD format. This will output SACD info to the two L and R analog outputs

Second there is dual layer SACD with Stereo layer and multichannel layer. This will play Mutlichannel SACD through the 6 analog outputs, or stereo SACD through the two L and R outputs depending on which layer you select on the SACD player. All SACD players have a way to switching layers and allows you to listen to either the stereo layer or the multichannel layer

Third there is the Hybrid SACD which is a Stere Layer SACD and Multichannel SACD and a regular stereo CD. This will output digital optical or Coax of the CD layer and L and R analog outputs of the CD layer, OR stereo SACD through L and R analog, OR 6 channel output through 6 analogs depending on which layer you select on the SACD player.

Your SACD connection to headphone amp is simply a matter of connecting the analog L and R of the SACD to your headphone amp like you would conenct any other DAC or CD player. But the only extra step is to make sure you select the stereo SACD layer on the SACD player, otherwise you will either lose information that is mixed out to the other analogues or get the cd layer. You can absolutely enjoy SACD to the fullest with any headphone amp if you just make sure you pick the right layer.

Your post however is right about one thing, modern sacd players do allow digital PCM through HDMI but this requires a receiver capable of doing multi channel PCM decoding. But this really is not for the OP since he just wants to use HP's.

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I dont think you even read my post, you just saw the first line and are making a fool of yourself now.

I am talking based on experience, based on reality, based on actually listening to and owning 3 SACD players. So please, dont link to a friggin wiki page. Go get your facts straight first.

From the link you posted

"

There are three types of SACDs:^[1]

• Hybrid: The most popular of the three types, hybrid discs include a Red Book layer compatible with most ordinary Compact Disc players, dubbed the "CD layer," and a 4.7 GB SACD layer, dubbed the "HD layer."^[2]
• Single-layer: Physically a DVD-5 DVD, a single-layer SACD includes a 4.7 GB HD layer with no CD layer.
• Dual-layer: Physically a DVD-9 DVD, a dual-layer SACD includes two HD layers totaling 8.5 GB, with no CD layer. It enables nearly twice as much data to be stored, but eliminates CD player compatibility. This type is rarely used."

which is pretty much what I said

and

"

For models that are capable of reading SACD, three output options exist:

• Using the AV output will give an analog stereo sound for SACD's that include a stereo track.
• Using HDMI will give access to multi-channel high-resolution PCM audio (converted from DSD

  Which is also what I said with regards to getting SACD output from the player

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Wow, thanks Uncle Erik.

labrat man, seriously you are getting all worked up over nothing

please read the link you posted "http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=46367"

Its quite clear  from the replies on that, if you still dont understand that you can listen to SACD on stereo and all sacds and sacd players have that provision, I dont know who can help.

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Ok I'm sorry I said absolutely wrong, shouldnt have done that and it turned the whole thread a bit argumentative.

But its just that you still dont seem to understand the concept and have now gone into so much detail and have referenced other forums and articles that clearly explain the concept and still make statements like what you just did.

Let me try again though and please this time with no hostility, I'm just trying to explain to you what you seem to be missing out on.

You make this statement.

I did point out though, that the SACD high resolution content is usually recorded and played in more than 2 channels, and listening to only the 2 front Left and Right channels you would loose some of the high resolution content.

Here is where I have the problem. You still dont quite get that there is a high resolution stereo SACD track available on the same disc.

SACD only SACD's can either have just a stereo SACD layer alone or both a stereo SACD layer and a multi channel layer. Please understand, and read this carefully, these are TWO SEPERATE MIXES and completely different layers. The stereo only SACD layer is still a high resolution SACD mix with full high resolution recording of the original material available in stereo mode without losing any content. The Multi channel layer is a different mix where the recording is split between the 6 channels available and depending on the source material can be anything from 3.0 to 4.0 to full 5.1

Again these are two seperate layers and both layers are SACD and high resolution and both are available for playback on an SACD player. The SACD player in question picks which layer to play depending on the users selection. This is usually simply a button on a remote to some complex systems where you need to dive into some menus to find the option to switch to this layer

Then there are hybrids.

Over and over you seem to be confusing the term hyrbid. A Hybrid SACD is not one that has a 2 channel low res CD and a multi channel SACD, a hybrid is a disc that has 3 and always has 3 layers, one being low res CD, one being  high resolution SACD in stereo and one being multichannel SACD in surround. If there is an odd case that the hybrid has only 2 layers (I for one dont recall seeing one yet) it will have a low res CD and a high res SACD in stereo, I can say quite confidently that there has never been a disc that has a low res CD and mutli channel SACD alone, there will ALWAYS be a 2 channel high resolution SACD layer as well.

I suggest you look at either you players documentation/manual or just go into the menu system and look for it, because you really are losing out on the full capability of your SACD collection if you dont understand this. For any sacd you should be able to switch between these layers and enjoy the full high resolution sound in either 2 channel or multi channel depending on which layer you select.

I agree with you on one thing though, this neednt have turned so ugly, and I'm sorry, but please try and understand what we are trying to say and dont explain something thats not quite right over and over again.

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Ok maybe the term layer is a bit confusing here and you are right about this "If a Super Audio Compact Disc contains High Definition multi channel as well as High Definition stereo channel content, this is as separate tracks on the same layer!". That is correct, but if you already knew this, why do you keep posting saying its not possible to listen to full HIREZ in 2 channel over analog? Or say stuff like you lose information or dont get all the hi rez information? Can you please acknowledge that those statements are false for it will definitely confuse anyone new to this.

There is no IF here, all or most SACD's will have a DSD stereo segment or layer or watever you want to call it, whether they be Hybrid SACD's or not. At the minimum the will have the stereo DSD alone, but there is scenario of not having a stereo DSD section (I havent seen or heard of a case in over 100 sacds that I have). When you simply want to listen to SACD in stereo, or over headphones, you will have to make your player select this section of the disc to enjoy full HI REZ sound in stereo. There is no question of "losing information" or "not getting the full hi resolution here".

EDIT: Just looked it up, I guess its called playback AREA for selecting between 2ch and Multi channel, you will need to select the 2 channel "area" to get full hirez in stereo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by labrat 

OK, I will not be so harsh again, and this discussion is really over.

But there is a big flaw in your arguments, and you seem unaware of this.

If you check around on the Internet or any other place, you will find a Super Audio Compact Disc have maximum 2 layers of content, not 3.

The only type of disc where 3 layers of content is mentioned as possible, in the future, is Blue Ray Compact Discs.

So a Super Audio Compact disc can have one layer of High Definition content, with a maximum of 4.7 GB storage capacity.

Or 2 layers of High Definition content, Super Audio material, totaling 8.5 GB storage capacity.

Or one layer of High Definition content and one layer of ordinary, low definition, Red Book content.

If a Super Audio Compact Disc contains High Definition multi channel as well as High Definition stereo channel content, this is as separate tracks on the same layer!

Or possibly one High Definition layer with multi channel recordings and one High Definition layer with stereo recordings.

I have not seen this, but it might exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik 

This is getting a lot more complicated than it needs to be.

Labrat, you're mostly wrong.

The only trouble with hi-rez output is if you're trying to output to a DAC. SACD will only output the Red Book layer, the rest is encrypted.

However, every SACD player has an internal DAC, so the analog output is dead nuts simple.

Every SACD has a stereo layer, so connect the left and right RCA jacks to the left and right RCA jacks on your headphone amp with a RCA cable. Takes 30 seconds.

If you have a SACD player with 5-channel output and a 5-channel receiver, then you use 5 RCA cables to connect them. Again, simple.

If you need to connect a 5-channel SACD player to a 2-channel amp, connect the front left and right channels on the SACD player to the left and right channels on your amp.

If you have a 5-channel SACD player connected to a 2-channel amp, make sure the SACD player is set to 2-channel output. It will be an option on every SACD player.

That's all there is to it.

Even though the OP by Proglover seems to have been fully addressed, I wish to request some clarification regarding information posted by the esteemed Uncle Erik, as regards outputting SACD digital information to a DAC and the use of digital vs. analog connections.  

I have done two configurations with my CD/DAC/tube amp.  One involves a digital out from the Cayin 50T SACD/CD player to a Lavry DA10 and then using XLR analog outs from the DAC to the headphone amp.  I notice that on hybrid SACD discs, the only layer being heard is the CD layer and it won't play the SACD layer.  But, if i remove the DAC from the equation and use a direct analog out to analog in between the CD and headphone amp, I can get the SACD layer outputted.  

Does this have something to do with the Lavry DAC being unable to pass along the SACD information (as it is "encrypted"?) and thus "reporting back" to the CD player that it cannot use the SACD layer?  Is this why I cannot listen to SACD source material with the DAC in the mix?

If you want to know why the DAC is in the mix in the first place since the CD player has a built-in DAC, I am using it for preamp gain of low level material...I seriously doubt it messes with the SQ at all in doing so since I hear more resolution and imaging with the DAC in there.  Perhaps I need ears rechecked if someone tells me otherwise...

I hope my line of questioning makes sense.  Thanks in advance for any enlightenment one may provide.