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HiFi Shock - The truth on performance is inside the equipments Read more:...

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 

http://hifishock.altervista.org/

 

Hi!I'm italian(sorry for my english) and I'm here to introduce you my new completely free site,HiFi Shock,site that was inspired by the famous TheVintageKnob and by the italian hifi magazines.Here you can find also a huge amont of audio gear's internal views of many many brands,and I wish that everybody likes it!

Who want to contribute,can send me images to  the email (that you can also find in my site) hifi_shock@alice.it
thanks!


"I’ve decided to create this online archive,to give you the opportunity to view the internal circuits of the current or vintage hifi products,and I’ve done it for four reasons:

1)to satisfy a mine/yours pure curiosity
2)to know which are the planning choice of a certain company(or used in one only product),via the observation of the circuits,to value the quality of the electrical components,of the power supply board,etc…
3)to revalue the products of a certain brand,or to arise quality doubts on a single product or on a whole brand,with objectivity and apart from its price or blazon.
4)to find new scandals like the famous Lexicon and Goldmund cases


I’ve decided to call this Hifi Shock,because that images should wake up a little shock,a surprise,whether positive or negative:the best electronics  always have a serious project behind(or the opposite for the worst),with quality components,alla that you can easily know by viewing this images.

This,obviously, doesn’t means that you should choose your own equipment according to how much the photo is "schocking you" , but sure is that, observing the circuits through the photo,we can already understand if we are in front of an high level project or not,apart from its brand and cost.Perhaps,thanks to these photos, you will even be able to discover that a little famous brand,or a huge multinational corporation,produces or had produced some very interesting products, and so it can make you become so much curious on this,that you want to listen them.Who knows that,thanks to a "symple" photo, you’ll find the perfect component for your sound system,perhaps it may be that component that you had always ignored,because it’s not blazoned!
Because of this I think that Hifi Shock is a valid tool to be used for choosing our future apparatuses.

In this collection you will be able to find over 3500 images (January 2011) of also currently not distributed brands in Italy, but that in their origin country are appreciated a lot. There are also also many rare apparatuses, and also their own circuit’s diagrams!
Images are divided in categories and subcategories to facilitate you,and obviously, they are all enough large, and nearly are all from amateur origin.


Wishing this will be be useful for you,I  greet you.

 

Salvatore Scarfone"
 
beerchug.gif
post #2 of 18

very nice, sir!!

 

post #3 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by googleborg View Post

very nice, sir!!

 


Thanks a lot.I wish it become very popular,like the site vintageknob.org,but mine is a totally banner free site!wink_face.gif

 

now there are 3635 images,but on February I will add 2000 images further!!!So 5600 images!!! This site will become the largest archive in the world of this kind! eek.gif

 

 

P.S.If somebody wants to contribute to this site,please send me your photos to my email hifi_shock@alice.it

post #4 of 18
Thread Starter 

Hi to everyone!These are the latest news.Thanks


MARCH 2011
1738 images added, 5238 images in all, 40 new brands added.

http://hifishock.altervista.org/

post #5 of 18

WOW, what initiatiave!

post #6 of 18

Cool, although I can't say that I care what exactly inside of something (other than as an engineering curiosity) as long as it measures right and sounds good in a blind test.

 

No Carver stuff yet?!?  You should link to The Carver Site, at least: http://thecarversite.com/  Essentially every manual and service manual is available there.

 

Same goes for Infinity - Infinity Classics is an excellent site: http://www.infinity-classics.de/infinity/models/index-models.htm  There's not internal photos for everything, but there's lots of crossover diagrams and spec sheets/parts info.  The Yahoo group InfinityClassics (similar name, yes - but you have to join to access files) also has additional documents, including exploded assembly diagrams and service manuals.

 

You might also take care to have a less jarring site design - I know it's basic and I don't expect anything fancy, but you're hardly going to win over any viewers with that horrid tiled background, poor colors and fonts choices, and cheesy graphics.  Take, for example, Schiit Audio.  They have a really simple site, with simple graphics and simple layouts.  But it still looks up-to-date and is easy on the eyes.

 

You might also want to consider a better image hosting site.  Both Flickr and Smugmug are much better than Photobucket (although I do have a Photobucket account for random stuff I don't want in my main accounts), and there's other choices out there too.  On the other hand, you'd have to pay a small yearly fee $25 for Flickr or $40/$60 for Smugmug.  Actually, Smugmug could serve as your entire site, as there's lots of ways to customize the entire website layout.  My photography site (here) is with them and for the most part I'm really happy with it.


Edited by BlackbeardBen - 3/1/11 at 5:47pm
post #7 of 18

Your English is great, there is no need to apologize.  Your usage of the space-bar however may need further learning tongue.gif

 

Thank you for the interesting site.

post #8 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadCred View Post

WOW, what initiatiave!


Thanks!If you want to contribute by sending some photos,I'll add them to the collection!Which gears do you have?wink_face.gif

 

post #9 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackbeardBen View Post

Cool, although I can't say that I care what exactly inside of something (other than as an engineering curiosity) as long as it measures right and sounds good in a blind test.

 

No Carver stuff yet?!?  You should link to The Carver Site, at least: http://thecarversite.com/  Essentially every manual and service manual is available there.

 

Same goes for Infinity - Infinity Classics is an excellent site: http://www.infinity-classics.de/infinity/models/index-models.htm  There's not internal photos for everything, but there's lots of crossover diagrams and spec sheets/parts info.  The Yahoo group InfinityClassics (similar name, yes - but you have to join to access files) also has additional documents, including exploded assembly diagrams and service manuals.

 

You might also take care to have a less jarring site design - I know it's basic and I don't expect anything fancy, but you're hardly going to win over any viewers with that horrid tiled background, poor colors and fonts choices, and cheesy graphics.  Take, for example, Schiit Audio.  They have a really simple site, with simple graphics and simple layouts.  But it still looks up-to-date and is easy on the eyes.

 

You might also want to consider a better image hosting site.  Both Flickr and Smugmug are much better than Photobucket (although I do have a Photobucket account for random stuff I don't want in my main accounts), and there's other choices out there too.  On the other hand, you'd have to pay a small yearly fee $25 for Flickr or $40/$60 for Smugmug.  Actually, Smugmug could serve as your entire site, as there's lots of ways to customize the entire website layout.  My photography site (here) is with them and for the most part I'm really happy with it.


I know that viewing inside them can seems a bit useless,but this is a common error that many people do.You know that you can listen music through your system,because somebody had created some circuits.To achieve the maximum results the engeneer must create a good project,must use top quality components,must add huge power section.REAL hiend manufactures do their electronics in this way,because this is the only way to achieve the best.Try to view many images of many different brands,search their prices...compare every brand with the most serious brands like Mark Levinson,Sony,Accuphase,Pioneer,etc...rolleyes.gif ...and your face will have this kind of lookeek.gif.Why?Because there are many many many brands(many also with huge expensive prices)that cares so much the aesthetics,and that internally seems like a boombox or have the components of the same quality of a sat receiver!eek.gif Rightly you are thinking:but if it sounds good for me,why I should that care of the inside?Like I had just written,real hi-end sound can be achieved only through top quality.For 30.000dollars that it costs,XXX(the name of a brand),why they didn't used real quality components and a serious project?It could sounds much much better!I pay a huge amount of money for a beutiful box,and for 50$ shit-like electronics?So sell them for 300$,not 30.000$!!!rolleyes.gifAnd it isn't only a question of sound,because cheap components=poor reliability!mad.gifHave you ever heard of somebody with a broken expensive electronic?

And I don't want to remember that shame of Goldmund 6.000& dvd player with a 100$ pioneer inside,or the huge acclaimed top CEC transport with...(search the photos on my site)...

I'm not saying that you should buy you system judging every component on "how much its inside is shocking you",but you should know that you'll never get top quality form poor project,top dynamics from poor power section,top refinement from cheap chinese components.Before buying,search for the inside on my site.

 

I've uploaded 1738 images last month,and I have yet another 270 in my computer.Just wait and other many thousands will be uploaded soon.

My site is only for hifi and home cinema components,not speakers,because it's very difficult for me to find their inside.But I want to remember you that 80% of speakers mount the usually third part components like scan speak etc,so them maybe only make cabinets like carpenters...biggrin.gif

 

I've bought a pro account for a year on photobucket because I didn't found a way to dowloand alla the images mantaining theri names,that could be lost.And renaming 3-5000 images is a bit difficult!But maybe next year a will create a new site without photobucket support.

 

post #10 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiver View Post

Your English is great, there is no need to apologize.  Your usage of the space-bar however may need further learning tongue.gif

 

Thank you for the interesting site.

oh many thanks"beerchug.gif
 

 

post #11 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifi shock View Post




I know that viewing inside them can seems a bit useless,but this is a common error that many people do.You know that you can listen music through your system,because somebody had created some circuits.To achieve the maximum results the engeneer must create a good project,must use top quality components,must add huge power section.REAL hiend manufactures do their electronics in this way,because this is the only way to achieve the best.Try to view many images of many different brands,search their prices...compare every brand with the most serious brands like Mark Levinson,Sony,Accuphase,Pioneer,etc...rolleyes.gif ...and your face will have this kind of lookeek.gif.Why?Because there are many many many brands(many also with huge expensive prices)that cares so much the aesthetics,and that internally seems like a boombox or have the components of the same quality of a sat receiver!eek.gifRightly you are thinking:but if it sounds good for me,why I should that care of the inside?Like I had just written,real hi-end sound can be achieved only through top quality.For 30.000dollars that it costs,XXX(the name of a brand),why they didn't used real quality components and a serious project?It could sounds much much better!I pay a huge amount of money for a beutiful box,and for 50$ shit-like electronics?So sell them for 300$,not 30.000$!!!rolleyes.gifAnd it isn't only a question of sound,because cheap components=poor reliability!mad.gifHave you ever heard of somebody with a broken expensive electronic?

And I don't want to remember that shame of Goldmund 6.000& dvd player with a 100$ pioneer inside,or the huge acclaimed top CEC transport with...(search the photos on my site)...

I'm not saying that you should buy you system judging every component on "how much its inside is shocking you",but you should know that you'll never get top quality form poor project,top dynamics from poor power section,top refinement from cheap chinese components.Before buying,search for the inside on my site.

 

I've uploaded 1738 images last month,and I have yet another 270 in my computer.Just wait and other many thousands will be uploaded soon.

My site is only for hifi and home cinema components,not speakers,because it's very difficult for me to find their inside.But I want to remember you that 80% of speakers mount the usually third part components like scan speak etc,so them maybe only make cabinets like carpenters...biggrin.gif

 

I've bought a pro account for a year on photobucket because I didn't found a way to dowloand alla the images mantaining theri names,that could be lost.And renaming 3-5000 images is a bit difficult!But maybe next year a will create a new site without photobucket support.

 


Regardless of what is put inside them, if it measures that it can put out tons of current, extremely low in distortion, extremely flat in frequency response, high slew rate, is reliable (certainly somewhat part-dependent - but tell me, do you inspect the internals [resistors, caps, and so on] before buying a $1000 PC to make sure they're high quality and reliable?), and so on - and it sounds good in tests - it doesn't matter.  It doesn't matter if 1% or 5% resistors/caps are used, if there's no audible difference.  It doesn't matter if it has a huge power supply, if it has an alternative trick power supply that can put out the same level of power (and is reliable).  All that matters is performance.

 

I'm not trying to say that, for example, Carvers are the best amplifiers ever.  The definitely have their own problems.

 

You can't judge a design only by the quality of components in it - the engineering and design behind it is far and away the most important aspect.  Looking inside isn't going to tell you a whole lot about that (except basic design) unless you start looking at circuit diagrams.  You also have no idea for the reasoning behind the engineers' design decisions.  Plastic is cheap and inferior since it's not as strong as metal, right?  No, not at all.  There's plenty of applications where it will outperform metal parts in performance - often due to manufacturing limitations of metal (you can mold the plastic into shapes that you can't form the metal into), chemical properties (see Breaking Bad) or physical advantages like high elasticity and the ability to put fibers in the plastic to create directionally dependent properties.

 

For the same reason, you can't make assumptions about the designer's decision to put specific components in a player.  Sure, if they just take a cheap DVD player, put it in a fancy box, and charge ten times more for it, there's something wrong.  But there's a reason Sony/Phillips/Pioneer transports are used in nearly every single high-end player - they're reliable and do exactly what they need to do, regardless of their price.

 

But I agree that much of the "high end" industry is as much a fashion industry as anything else.  Time and time again, when blind tested people have been entirely unable to discern any difference between level-matched amplifiers, pre-amps, CD players, and cables when the components measure reasonably well (flat frequency response, appropriate input/output impedances, reasonably low THD and IMD, etc.) and used within specifications regarding power output.

 

 

 

Oh, and for the record, I have had "high end" components fail on me.  No matter how good the electrolytic capacitors are in your amp, they'll eventually go bad, even in a McIntosh - my father's MA 6100 had to be recapped a few years ago.  My half-year-old ThinkPad - the kind NASA trusts 100 of on the ISS - already has a USB port that's gone bad.  It actually corrupts memory cards I plug into it.  Sometimes.  Right now it happens to be working fine.  I paid $1600 for the computer - stupid things like that shouldn't happen to a high-end business notebook that definitely has higher quality parts and superior design to other computers.  But they do - and things like this will always happen to some degree.

 


Re: Uploading photos while maintaining file names - both Flickr and SmugMug give you the choice to do that.  And like I said, they're both far better photo hosting sites.  They have powerful uploading tools too, that give you tons of batch loading options.


Edited by BlackbeardBen - 3/2/11 at 5:25am
post #12 of 18
Thread Starter 

a computer is a completely different kind of electronics,and it can't be compared with audio-video gears.Why?Because audio quality is not only a question of measures,because them can only show you the limits of a project,not how much it can sounds good.Theoretically:two apparatuses of the same kind(a preamp for example),with absolutely the same measures,can sounds very different,because the secret of high end sound is choosing the sound of every components.A caps of the same capacity,can sounds very different from another of the same type,and one only components putted in a certain place can do the real difference in sound refinement.This is the secret of real highend sound.You'll never find top sound quality from a project with all the same components,because obviously there's been no effort in creating that electronics.Obviously a brand can choose a top quality caps to be used in every part of the circuit.It a choice.But if you see cheap components anywhere,they wants only to save costs...
You care only performance in a subwoofer amplifier,because here there is no refinement required.
The main reason of using philips transport,in only because when they buy transport,its included also the electronics...philips transports are ready to be assembled...others must be implemented.

 

This is an Audio Analogue Maestro Special Edition preamplifier(WITHOUT THE PHOTOS OF THE POWER SECTION)9000$

http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o406/hifi_shock/Audio%20Analogue/PRE/AUDIOANALOGUEMAESTROSESPECIALEDITION07.jpg

 

This is the top Mcintosh C1000P(also without power section)9000$

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq255/jdandy_photos/C1000Pnudie.jpg

 

 

 

have you found some interesting photos?wink.gif

 

 

 


Edited by hifi shock - 3/4/11 at 4:01am
post #13 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifi shock View Post

a computer is a completely different kind of electronics,and it can't be compared with audio-video gears.Why?Because audio quality is not only a question of measures,because them can only show you the limits of a project,not how much it can sounds good.Theoretically:two apparatuses of the same kind(a preamp for example),with absolutely the same measures,can sounds very different,because the secret of high end sound is choosing the sound of every components.A caps of the same capacity,can sounds very different from another of the same type,and one only components putted in a certain place can do the real difference in sound refinement.This is the secret of real highend sound.You'll never find top sound quality from a project with all the same components,because obviously there's been no effort in creating that electronics.Obviously a brand can choose a top quality caps to be used in every part of the circuit.It a choice.But if you see cheap components anywhere,they wants only to save costs...
You care only performance in a subwoofer amplifier,because here there is no refinement required.
The main reason of using philips transport,in only because when they buy transport,its included also the electronics...philips transports are ready to be assembled...others must be implemented.

 

This is an Audio Analogue Maestro Special Edition preamplifier(WITHOUT THE PHOTOS OF THE POWER SECTION)9000$

http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o406/hifi_shock/Audio%20Analogue/PRE/AUDIOANALOGUEMAESTROSESPECIALEDITION07.jpg

 

This is the top Mcintosh C1000P(also without power section)9000$

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq255/jdandy_photos/C1000Pnudie.jpg

 

 

 

have you found some interesting photos?wink.gif

 

 

 

 


Oh really?!?  Differences that can't be measured directly between parts (and I don't just mean specifications - I mean measurements, like discharge rates for capacitors and so on) - can be measured with the whole amplifier circuit around them?

 

I say measured in the amplifier, because if humans can hear it in a verified double blind listening test, it can be measured in the amplifier.  At least in every rigorous test date, that has been the case.

 

So that's the real secret of high end sound?  Something that can't be measured, nor heard in a double blind test?  It can only be determined by looking at the components inside and not considering their performance or the performance of the circuit in every measurable way?

Sounds like the same quack argument as differences in adequate cables, only extended inside your components rather than outside of them.  The only difference I see is that there are measurable, if irrelevant, differences in cable - but you're telling me that even if there aren't measurable differences, it will still make a difference in sound based on the ambiguous "quality" of the components.

 

 

 

Oh, for the record... I'm not arguing that there aren't measurable differences in parts or in amplifiers/pre-amps/CD players/DACs.  I do however, entirely question the audibility of those differences when the measured magnitude of them is as low as it really is.

post #14 of 18
Thread Starter 

I'm not talking about blind tests,but about this: take a 1.2UF 50° caps from a chinese brand,a Mundorf,an Elna,Nichicon,Sanyo,Epcos,Wima,etc.A cheap and an expensive caps.An electrolitic,a polypropilene,etc etc...Do you think that they will sound all in the same way because are all 1.2UF 50° caps?No they sound very different,and knowing exactly how they sound,and where you should put them to obtain what you want,can give you the opportunity to modify as you like the sound.This is why there are many brands that have really the best highend sound,but each are different from another.This is the secret of each brand.

 

 

PS.Remember that I'm italian and can occur some misunderstanding!wink_face.gif

 

post #15 of 18



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hifi shock View Post

I'm not talking about blind tests,but about this: take a 1.2UF 50° caps from a chinese brand,a Mundorf,an Elna,Nichicon,Sanyo,Epcos,Wima,etc.A cheap and an expensive caps.An electrolitic,a polypropilene,etc etc...Do you think that they will sound all in the same way because are all 1.2UF 50° caps?No

 

I would want to see better evidence that they sound different, not just opinion based on price, appearance, manufacturer name or reputation, or sighted evaluations, the best evidence pragmatically would be double blind tests in the same circuit.

 

they sound very different,and knowing exactly how they sound,and where you should put them to obtain what you want,can give you the opportunity to modify as you like the sound.This is why there are many brands that have really the best highend sound,but each are different from another.This is the secret of each brand.

 

 

PS.Remember that I'm italian and can occur some misunderstanding!wink_face.gif

 



 

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  • HiFi Shock - The truth on performance is inside the equipments Read more: http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=38383&forum=47#ixzz1Brye0hWj
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Sound Science › HiFi Shock - The truth on performance is inside the equipments Read more: http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=38383&forum=47#ixzz1Brye0hWj