Can someone enlighten me on cabling?

Just don't believe your ears, it can't be different.

UE's point is, with so many MEASURABLE difference, our ears cannot detect the difference. Why would cables, with NO MEASURABLE difference sound different?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik 

You might also want to think about what's inside the device. Consider the paper-thin copper traces on the PCB. Ordinary hookup wire. Then there's a thin copper wire covered in enamel inside your headphones' voice coils. Usually ordinary stuff.

Did you know that the components inside your gear probably have a tolerance of 10% to 15%? In other words the 100 Ohm resistors in the left and right channels most likely vary between 90 Ohms and 110 Ohms. You can measure the differences with any meter. I promise you the differences are in there and in every component. If you have 40 or 50 devices inside an amp or DAC, you're guaranteed to have slightly different output between the left and right channels. Can you hear the difference between left and right? There is a measurable one.

Though I'm glad to see you're asking questions. Keep asking more. Don't be afraid to test things, either.

Ok UE, That's why I really appreciate my builder (Chris Ivan) who measures and matches to the closest tolerances each resistor each cap,out put of the L/R channels etc,etc......I watch him, I see him shake his head and explain to me the Numbers coming up on his volt meters  and scopes......Oh so true on circuit boards with their "Trace Soldering!  But I hear a difference in different cables and as you've said before you even like the build Quality of some of the after market cables..But my builder (C.Ivan) and Myself are good Friends with Jr, a (Builder and has a doctorate degree in Electrical Eng.) says and believes many times you might hear a very minute difference....Right now Jr, (Joe) is working for a engineering firm who go around testing wires for the USA Government....He has had many believable and unbelievable stories about the Wires being made here......He doesn't put me down for believing I hear a difference, he just informs me that what is possible to hear and the measurable  difference can and does fall under the Placebo effect.....All three of us have DBT each other and have all been fooled or guessed wrong.....So on with the show!   He says Don't spend that F---k You money on many after market cables....But back to your pt. on Matching Parts .......Very important!!! I'm just grateful for having met and becoming great friends with these two Tube Guru's..That Build almost all of my equip.for the last 12 yrs.......
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by darknessproz 

UE's point is, with so many MEASURABLE difference, our ears cannot detect the difference. Why would cables, with NO MEASURABLE difference sound different?

Did you ever bother to actually check this?

Hifi choice used to measure cables long ago, resistance, capacitance and Inductance; cables varied wildly on those parameters.

Ok, and how do they affect sound? ie: frequency response etc?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by dura 

Quote:

Originally Posted by darknessproz 

UE's point is, with so many MEASURABLE difference, our ears cannot detect the difference. Why would cables, with NO MEASURABLE difference sound different?

Did you ever bother to actually check this?

Hifi choice used to measure cables long ago, resistance, capacitance and Inductance; cables varied wildly on those parameters.

Bass and treble controls in amps use capacitors.  Noise filtering is done by capacitors.  So at the very least, as cables have some degree of capacitance as a result of their dielectric, it's possible for a cable to affect tone.  The capacitance is arguably very low, however and, in my experience, the effects are subtle.  Cables can also receive electromagnetic interference to some or other degree, which may have some effect.  It's something I'd like to know more about for sure.

I haven't done any silver recables or any recables on high-end enough cans to really judge (but will be doing my HD600s soon). So with that I won't say if they change things or not, but in theory it makes sense that they would. Nothing is a perfect conductor - different materials, lengths, gauges will all cause changes in inductance, capacitance, and resistance. You know that a typical bass boost circuit is just a couple resistors and capacitors - you can hear bast boost. In your car where you have coaxial speakers with a mid and tweeter on the same platform - those coax's use just capacitors and resistors as a passive crossover - those components alone filter out entire ranges of the frequency spectrum.

So, I used to be a cable-hater, and I have not yet had a chance to really listen to differences (but again, I will soon), but in theory it makes sense that there will be SOME differences in SOME cases, just based on the fact that we KNOW capacitors and resistors can be used to manipulate frequencies and just based on the fact that we KNOW cable differences can affect capacitance, resistance, and inductance. How big will these differences BE? We don't know that most of the time - but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

So if RLC are the domains of influence, why can't repeatable tests be done to identify changes to the signal? Why can't you just make RLC customer adjustable to match the components? If I'm understanding this, ICs and cords are antenna. The better designs provide less obstruction for the signal/power and some can hear the results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper 

Why can't you just make RLC customer adjustable to match the components?

You can - it's called a tone control, and is currently out of fashion.  But the need for it seems to remain, because people seem to imagine they can buy subtle, pre-set tone controls in the form of aftermarket cables.  The language people use about cable effects is the same as they might use if they nudged the treble control down a tad, or the bass control up a little.

I am not trying to assert any absolute authority on the subject - just discussing. Off the top of my head, I would think the reason for lack of "customer adjustable" parts is that custom usually means $$$ and $$$ can change target markets. Again, just discussing - I don't claim to be an authority on anything. :)

Another thing I wonder is - do we KNOW that tests can't be done to identify changes? I don't hear of tests being done, but I don't know that it is out of the question. Again, money is likely an issue when it comes to testing/researching/developing with the goal being such a small change. Some people swap pricey cables and think they hear a difference. Maybe they do - but would costly R&D be justified if, even after potentially proving a change, the R&D pushed the product price even farther out of mainstream attainability? 

Example, I mayyyy be willing to pay 200 for a cable (unlikely, I'd diy first :) ). There may seem to be a little difference in sound and I may feel it justifies $200. But let's say that cable maker had spent tons of time and money to prove that small difference in scientific terms. Even if they were successful and now we KNOW that the cable matters, what if the R&D pushed the product to $600 per cable. Now who wants that cable - especially after the differences were proven, and proven to be small. Know what I mean? Seems to risky for an audiophile product vendor to pursue proving cable differences - it could just backfire on them and destroy their profit margin, even if they proved differences.

I think if we were to find differences in cables it would be data from a different industry where those RLC differences are more critical than just tweaking what someone is hearing. Then that data would still have to applied to audio on the basis of logic, not a direct test.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong 

Bass and treble controls in amps use capacitors.  Noise filtering is done by capacitors.  So at the very least, as cables have some degree of capacitance as a result of their dielectric, it's possible for a cable to affect tone.  The capacitance is arguably very low, however and, in my experience, the effects are subtle.  Cables can also receive electromagnetic interference to some or other degree, which may have some effect.  It's something I'd like to know more about for sure.

Are we discussing speaker cables or interconnects? Speaker cables have very little capacitance relative to the current, so it's a non-issue. They are not affected by RF interference unless they are several hundred feet long. They are sources of resistance (as speakers are very low resistance) and so one should effort to keep the speaker cable impedance <5% of the speaker impedance.

Interconnects are vunerable to RF interference (if I set my blackberry near my subwoofer, it occasionally creates a loud pulsing noise lasing 1-2 seconds. They are short and dealing with high (75ohm) resistance loads, so that should not be a problem. I'd have to go look on inductance: but ironically I would think that would be less of a problem with cheaper cables.
 

I was thinking of interconnects when I posted, but indeed about it being irrelevant with speaker cables.