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Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide: (Update: 7/9/2014: Ultrasone HFI-15G Added) - Page 523

post #7831 of 26135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post

Make sure to read up on how to do the foam removal mod which is reversible if the cans ever mess up.

Does the mod make THAT much better? Remember not an audiophile so not the most experienced in this.

post #7832 of 26135

Because the Hifiman HE 400 got so many praise in this thread, so I put more effort on searching it. It seems that my friend's store can get it for 360 usd, same price with hd 650, worth it?

Sound wise, I believe it might please me in music and gaming. Comfort is I'm afraid of. At 440 grams, its heavy and the design seems close to the At M50, which I hate the clamping force. I can get the velour pad for 5 usd from Hifiman China site, if it helps the comfort.

Yes, I can get the he 400 for the web too, at 390usd. Still, I want to try it, more for its comfort than sound.

post #7833 of 26135

Re: HE-400

I was concerned about the weight too; it's not an issue. I'm a skinny guy who doesn't work out, and my frame of reference for a comfortable headphone is my DT 880 for nearly 4 years now. Versus the DT 880 (and therefore the 770 and 990, Premium editions), the HE-400 is:

- Heavier

- Less clampy

- MORE open (sound leaks in more)

 

The design is nothing like the M50. Which aspect looks similar to you?

 

If you buy the 400, you must buy the velour pads. There is no "maybe" about this. Where is it USD 5? I see 10:

http://head-direct.com/Products/?act=detail&id=117

post #7834 of 26135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric_C View Post

Re: HE-400

I was concerned about the weight too; it's not an issue. I'm a skinny guy who doesn't work out, and my frame of reference for a comfortable headphone is my DT 880 for nearly 4 years now. Versus the DT 880 (and therefore the 770 and 990, Premium editions), the HE-400 is:

- Heavier

- Less clampy

- MORE open (sound leaks in more)

 

The design is nothing like the M50. Which aspect looks similar to you?

 

If you buy the 400, you must buy the velour pads. There is no "maybe" about this. Where is it USD 5? I see 10:

http://head-direct.com/Products/?act=detail&id=117


Well, I will try it first when I have the time. Along with the beyer 990. But you said less clampy, are  you sure? The beyer is the the lightest clamp I ever tried, But even less clamp? The design from what I see, when you put the cans on the surface, both drivers touch each other, just like the M50. So I conclude the clamping issue. The beyer and senn, both drivers are separate when you put the cans on the surface.

Heavy is also my concern, but I will try it first. Open seal I don't really care, I use it indoor only.

You getting it from the USA store. I got it from Hifiman China region... I live in Hongkong and China, so its more reasonable to get it from the China web.

http://hifiman.cn/

It said 39 rmb (5-6 usd) for the velour... Is it hard to change the pads? no experience here on modding headphone.


Edited by widdyjudas - 9/28/12 at 8:44pm
post #7835 of 26135
Thread Starter 
Well, the HE-400 seems to have been revised again, so I'll have to clarify that my review is on the Rev. 2 version (earlier this year), and not the newest ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerg View Post

Hi!

Edit:


Older driver



New driver

The new ones SEEM to sound brighter than the ones I own. Who knows how that would affect my scoring, though I expect it to be a minor change, where maybe the competitive would go up half a point or something.
Edited by Mad Lust Envy - 9/28/12 at 8:52pm
post #7836 of 26135

Sorry for my mistake again. I forgot again to mention that the comfort issue on the M50 is not the clamp force, but rather its the pad size.

Clamp force is good for me, but the pad is smaller than my ear size. So its rather on my ear than over the ear. Add that with the clamping and there is my discomfort issue.

About the revision, is the bass region affected? I don't want bass-less cans like ad700 or akg, I still need it for my music.

post #7837 of 26135

Another quick question here.  Hope you don't mind. :)

 

I read practically everywhere here in the head-fi forum that using amp would impart some sort of sound signature (bass, soundstage, trebble, sibilance, etc) to the output of the headphone.  Even more so with people who's using tube amplifier (where it's said that you just need to find the right tube to get the sound you want).

 

Now, most of the low/mid class amp I read about are solid state type.  So the sound signature can not be changed like in the tube amps.

 

So I'm wondering here.  For the purpose of gaming / movie (3D sound), where we're probably gonna be picking up a solid state type, would it make sense to choose one amp over another for their 'sound signature'?

post #7838 of 26135
Thread Starter 
Amp differences are very often exaggerated here on Head-fi. I've found that as far as Solid State goes, they sound very much alike, assuming they are clean sounding, and provide the power a headphone needs to perform at it's optimum. The headphone will impart 98% of the sound, and the last two percent will come from the DAC and the AMP. What amps WILL do is change soundstage size, fullness of the sound, and smooth out the extremities to be more natural. Headphones like the K701 are deceptive, because they can get loud easily, but aren't exactly being fed the power it needs to perform optimally. That lack of power is what will give it a weaker, thinner sound vs an amp that has ample power.

Basically, I feel that as long as a headphone is being properly driven, you won't be able to tell one amp from another the majority of the time with blind testing. This is assuming the amps aren't imparting their own sound signature, like for example my NFB5, which adds a hint of warmth, and makes the treble ever so slightly smoother than what you'd call neutral. This works for the HE-400 (as the HE-400 has a pretty big peak in a very minor treble range). It's not a bad peak, but it is there, and the NFB5 fleshens it out.

In my opinion, buying the most powerful SS amp you can afford, that way you can future proof yourself amp-wise is what I'd go with. My dream amp is the Audio-GD SA-31. I'd get that and never think of amps ever again, though it would be imparting it's own signature.

For starters however, I'd suggest an SS amp that is neutral, like the O2 or even the E9, that way you know what to expect from SS amps. They will be fine for the vast majority of cans, and if you end up with some cans you might keep, then later on you can get an amp that specializes in adding/taking away from that specific headphone.
Edited by Mad Lust Envy - 9/29/12 at 2:44am
post #7839 of 26135

Review of Turtlebeach Ear force DSS + Audio Technica AD700 & Creative SB SB1300 (Recon 3D) and simulated surround in general.

 

Turtle beach DSS (Original) + Audio Technica AD700

Creative Soundblaster Recon 3D

 

I used both these devices with a PS3.

 

I had the Recon 3D for 3 weeks before It cooked itself and I had to return it. (So fortunately I got a no questions asked refund)

 

I have had the DSS for about 3 weeks as well.

 

My opinion of the surround in both is not very complementary.

 

I could not differentiate sounds coming from the front and rear.

 

To me it was just made the sound field/stage more ambient.

 

I conducted a blind test with the following software and DVDs

 

Killzone 3

COD Black Ops

Jean Michelle Jarre AERO 5.1 surround

Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon 5.1 Surround

 

With the games I had players perform certain moves around me while I was blind folded (monitor off). Left and right direction test was clear. I failed the front and back direction test with completely random results on each test.

 

In each test a custom game was created and only myself and the one other testing player was present to minimise any confusion.

Via chat I would indicate I was now blind folded (monitor turned off) and the testing player round ran to a random 360’ position around me.  He would them fire a weapon or jump on the spot or reload his weapon to make a noise.

 

I would then verbally indicate where I believe he was in relation to me. The testing player consistently confused my front and back direction by simply moving closer or further away from me. We then swapped roles. I tested and he guessed (guessing is to key word here).  And again he also failed the test.

 

The surround also failed to place effects and music in the correct staging positions. These was confirmed with two different testers.

 

For example in Pink Floyd's Money 5.1 surround edition the famous opening sequence of cash registers has a set order in the 5.1 surround.  I could positively hear the position when using both a 5.1 & 6.1 surround speaker setup.  However in the surround headphones the position is completely lost.

 

This is because each cash register sound not only changes position but also changes in timbre and tone. So sometimes a vibrant cash register sounds from the front but sometimes from the rear. This was plain to hear with a real 5.1 speaker setup.

 

Watching surround movies was certainly more enjoyable with the surround headphones than plain stereo and I think this is because the position cues are not as important as in gaming. Very big however it was not possible to listen to many Blu Ray titles that only supported DTS and with no Dolby sound option.

 

Overall.

 

Simulated surround though stereo headphones made surround music and DVD movies audibly more enjoyable but certainly not accurate surround sound staging.

 

FPS gaming seemed to be a big disappointment as there was front rear direction confusion.

 

From wiki pedia

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_recording

 

Limitations

Because each person's pinnae are unique, and because the filtering they impose on sound directionality is learned by each person from early childhood, the use of pinnae during recording that are not the same as the ultimate listener may lead to perceptual confusion

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization

 

Sound localization in the median plane (front, above, back, below)

The human outer ear, i.e. the structures of the pinna and the external ear canal, form direction-selective filters. Depending on the sound input direction in the median plane, different filter resonances become active. These resonances implant direction-specific patterns into the frequency responses of the ears, which can be evaluated by the auditory system(directional bands) for vertical sound localization. Together with other direction-selective reflections at the head, shoulders and torso, they form the outer ear transfer functions.

These patterns in the ear's frequency responses are highly individual, depending on the shape and size of the outer ear. If sound is presented through headphones, and has been recorded via another head with different-shaped outer ear surfaces, the directional patterns differ from the listener's own, and problems will appear when trying to evaluate directions in the median plane with these foreign ears. As a consequence, front–back permutations or inside-the-head-localization can appear when listening to dummy head recordings,or otherwise referred to as binaural recordings.

 

 

 

My text again …


These confusions were definitely apparent on all tested games and media and even on the 5.1 surround demo posted near the top of this thread.  Regarding this demo.  I first played the 5.1 demo blind folded and attempted to pick the sound directions through out.

 

The result was I was completely clueless to any sound direction.  I was completely astounded when playing the demo with my eyes open that the surround effect had been turned on and off for comparison during the demo because I was not even able to pick this had happened.

 

My conclusion is simulated surround through stereo head phones does not work for FPS gaming and is not worth getting for watching movies and music as there is no DTS support for Blu ray.

 

I found my own conclusion surprising considering I only purchased these devices due to online youtube reviews where the reviewer appears to experiencing accurate surround sound.

 

I will leave the ultimate test upon to you but I strongly suggest you try a blind test to convince yourself one way or the other.

(A blind test means no visual clues allowed).

post #7840 of 26135

Sending my Rev 3. HE-400 back. Can't stand the highs and as I told people - velour doesn't help. ;)

post #7841 of 26135
Quote:

 

Sound localization in the median plane (front, above, back, below)

The human outer ear, i.e. the structures of the pinna and the external ear canal, form direction-selective filters. Depending on the sound input direction in the median plane, different filter resonances become active. These resonances implant direction-specific patterns into the frequency responses of the ears, which can be evaluated by the auditory system(directional bands) for vertical sound localization. Together with other direction-selective reflections at the head, shoulders and torso, they form the outer ear transfer functions.

These patterns in the ear's frequency responses are highly individual, depending on the shape and size of the outer ear. If sound is presented through headphones, and has been recorded via another head with different-shaped outer ear surfaces, the directional patterns differ from the listener's own, and problems will appear when trying to evaluate directions in the median plane with these foreign ears. As a consequence, front–back permutations or inside-the-head-localization can appear when listening to dummy head recordings,or otherwise referred to as binaural recordings.

 

 

This is why we need devices such as Realizer A8 to accurately calibrate the frequency responses.  Basically it needs to take 2 measurements:

1st is measuring home theater room frequency responses,

2nd it needs to measure headphone frequency responses (they're using microphones that you insert to your ear).

 

Then the device knows EXACTLY how to modify the sound coming from x location (center/ FL / FR / RL / RR ) to convince you that you're in a real home theater.

 

I just don't get why there has only been 1 device that does this for years now.  And there has barely been any improvement on that product AND it still costs an arm and a leg.

Is it patented or something? ... considering this is a very simple method... I highly doubt it.... then again Apple patented rounded edge and black....

 

If I had to guess, the licensing for Dolby Digital and DTS tech is the main hurdle.  If I were the holder of the license, I would not permit such a device to exist cause it would hurt my customers (companies that produces home theater amps, Blu Ray, DVD. etc... a lot of 'paying' customers).

Thus... no Dolby Digital/DTS input so far for Realizer A8 (as far as I can tell the HDMI input is PCM only, thus you need a AV receiver, Dolby/DTS decoder device, or player that can decode and output surround sound as PCM)

 

So ... Realizer A8 - expensive cause it's holding some kind of patent and thus basically the ONLY device that does 'proper' surround headphone emulation.

 

Beyerdynamic Headzone - expensive cause even though it doesn't calibrate to your ear/head and only using generic frequency response template (Dolby Headphone), it is still expensive cause of licensing fees for DTS and Dolby that is jacked up to dissuade this kind of devices from existing.  This kind of generic template approach means that the effect works for some people, while others have varying degree of success due to stark difference of the frequency response curve. (I'm assuming that this is the case with wallyz).

Although I think if you just play with dolby headphone on all the time, your mind would eventually adjust and basically adapt to recognise directional cues based on the generic template.  The brain is strange that way....

 

If my assumptions on both product I mentioned above are incorrect,

someone with enough knowhow should get a kickstarter project on this.

Initial model should not even need the head tracking stuff.  Most of us would be perfectly content without it, especially if it would lower the cost.

 

I'm just rambling here... hope no one take offence.


Edited by washu9 - 9/29/12 at 11:10am
post #7842 of 26135
Quote:
Originally Posted by washu9 View Post

 

This is why we need devices such as Realizer A8 to accurately calibrate the frequency responses.  Basically it needs to take 2 measurements:

1st is measuring home theater room frequency responses,

2nd it needs to measure headphone frequency responses (they're using microphones that you insert to your ear).

 

Then the device knows EXACTLY how to modify the sound coming from x location (center/ FL / FR / RL / RR ) to convince you that you're in a real home theater.

 

I just don't get why there has only been 1 device that does this for years now.  And there has barely been any improvement on that product AND it still costs an arm and a leg.

Is it patented or something? ... considering this is a very simple method... I highly doubt it.... then again Apple patented rounded edge and black....

 

If I had to guess, the licensing for Dolby Digital and DTS tech is the main hurdle.  If I were the holder of the license, I would not permit such a device to exist cause it would hurt my customers (companies that produces home theater amps, Blu Ray, DVD. etc... a lot of 'paying' customers).

Thus... no Dolby Digital/DTS input so far for Realizer A8 (as far as I can tell the HDMI input is PCM only, thus you need a AV receiver, Dolby/DTS decoder device, or player that can decode and output surround sound as PCM)

 

So ... Realizer A8 - expensive cause it's holding some kind of patent and thus basically the ONLY device that does 'proper' surround headphone emulation.

 

Beyerdynamic Headzone - expensive cause even though it doesn't calibrate to your ear/head and only using generic frequency response template (Dolby Headphone), it is still expensive cause of licensing fees for DTS and Dolby that is jacked up to dissuade this kind of devices from existing.  This kind of generic template approach means that the effect works for some people, while others have varying degree of success due to stark difference of the frequency response curve. (I'm assuming that this is the case with wallyz).

Although I think if you just play with dolby headphone on all the time, your mind would eventually adjust and basically adapt to recognise directional cues based on the generic template.  The brain is strange that way....

 

If my assumptions on both product I mentioned above are incorrect,

someone with enough knowhow should get a kickstarter project on this.

Initial model should not even need the head tracking stuff.  Most of us would be perfectly content without it, especially if it would lower the cost.

 

I'm just rambling here... hope no one take offence.

rambling?? maybe just alil lol.  Jk.

 

A cheaper solution 

 

Here i said it before the DSS2 would be the best solution if it could be moded to do more just because of the chip thats inside under the hood..

 

Take a look. if i knew how to program n hack, it would have been done already lol.   http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/cs4970xx_family.html?prodKey=CS4970xx

 

CS497024

 

http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/manual/DSP_Composer_UM6.pdf

 

 

The manual skim through it check it out..Cirrus logi'c control panel for manufactures to model diff parameters inside of their software to control their dsp's and in real time.This is done via  a evaluation module/board hooked up to a pc or a standalone daughter card  that can be used i think on dsp's that are already in circuit.. Unfurtunately its  500.00.for the EVM

 

Interfacing something similar thru  usb would be cool " a hack".. If you know of  someone that could do it lets get it done i'm onboard


Edited by I95North - 9/29/12 at 12:36pm
post #7843 of 26135

I recall someone linking a project that basically constructed personalized HRTFs just with three images of the user's head: their face and sides. It seems to look at the overall head size and shape along with the ear size and shape, and calculate based on those.

 

While it would require some fiddling with a camera, it's still a long shot better than generic HRTFs used by most binaural mixing technologies. It also means you're not inherently limited to a set speaker system and room acoustics like the Smyth Realizer (which should be noted that they call their calibrated recordings PRIRs and not HRTFs precisely because of all the added variables in the speaker system and the room).

post #7844 of 26135
Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessPFG View Post

I recall someone linking a project that basically constructed personalized HRTFs just with three images of the user's head: their face and sides. It seems to look at the overall head size and shape along with the ear size and shape, and calculate based on those.

 

While it would require some fiddling with a camera, it's still a long shot better than generic HRTFs used by most binaural mixing technologies. It also means you're not inherently limited to a set speaker system and room acoustics like the Smyth Realizer (which should be noted that they call their calibrated recordings PRIRs and not HRTFs precisely because of all the added variables in the speaker system and the room).

how much where and does it work better than the products that are out now? find it i would like to try it out

post #7845 of 26135
Quote:
Originally Posted by I95North View Post

how much where and does it work better than the products that are out now? find it i would like to try it out

 

There are two problems with that...

 

-First of all, I don't even remember where it was posted! Could be this thread, could be my PC gaming audio guide thread.

 

-Second, and much more importantly, it was more of a proof-of-concept/research/theory presentation sort of thing, not an actual end-user product. It could form the basis of end-user binaural HRTF mixing products later, but as of now, I don't know of an end product that actually works that way.

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