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Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide: (Update: 7/9/2014: Ultrasone HFI-15G Added) - Page 1581

post #23701 of 24820
Quote:
Originally Posted by FruityGayGuy View Post


Do you prefer the 612 Pro or the HP 200?

For gaming? Music?

I'll have to wait until my K612 gets back from tour to answer that question. The HP200 sounds like it may be a bit similar to the stock K612, but its hard to tell without it here (plus my brain mainly remembers how the K612 sounds with the K702 pads).

I can say, however, that the HP200 falls in the neutral/detailed group with the likes of the SRH1840, HD600, Q701/K702, and K612/K601.
Edited by Change is Good - 5/11/14 at 2:54pm
post #23702 of 24820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Change is Good View Post


I'll have to wait until my K612 gets back from tour to answer that question. The HP200 sounds like it may be a bit similar to the stock K612, but its hard to tell without it here (plus my brain mainly remembers how the K612 sounds with the K702 pads).

I can say, however, that the HP200 falls in the neutral/detailed group with the likes of the SRH1840, HD600, Q701/K702, and K612/K601.


Thanks for your input.

post #23703 of 24820
Quote:
Originally Posted by FruityGayGuy View Post
 


Thanks for your input.

 

To give a better idea of what I'm talking about... 

 

I can say the HP200 measures somewhat in line with these others....


Edited by Change is Good - 5/11/14 at 3:05pm
post #23704 of 24820
Hello everyone. I'm new to the forums and thought this might be the best place to post my concerns/questions. I was using the turtle beach px21's that came with the earforce dss amp with my ps3. Lo and behold, a side of my headset snaps off one night when I go to use them. So I then had to proceed to get me a replacement. Enter Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide. After researching I decided on the Creative Aurvana Live headphones he recommended. I'm using them with the dss on my ps4 now and have been enjoying them. I was watching Akira 25th Anniversary Blu Ray a couple nights ago and had selected the Japanese 5.1 Dolby TrueHD track. I noticed that the light on the dss was reading for PLXII and not DD (Dolby Digital). I am now concerned if I am not doing something right or haven't applied the right settings. Is it perfectly fine for it not to run in DD? Is it better that way? Is the dss crap? Advice/tips are much appreciated!
post #23705 of 24820

I am about to buy the K702, It is said that it has the best detail,soundstage and imaging for under 600 bucks ... is that true ?

post #23706 of 24820

Regarding your list for the BoomMic Pro compatible headphones, which do you think would be comparable to the Ultrasone 780s?

post #23707 of 24820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam21 View Post
 

I am about to buy the K702, It is said that it has the best detail,soundstage and imaging for under 600 bucks ... is that true ?

 

Do you know about its headband? The new china headbands are even/flat in structure, the older ones have knobs than can be painful after a few hours and leave marks for a few hours after. 

 

How about the K712 or K702 Anniversaries? There should be a few deals out there by now. I can only speak more about the latter ones, I found them to be a superb allrounder for the money. There's not much else up to 600 bucks. If you mean Euros then there is the Beyerdynamic T1 for 699 Euros which I find superior to any AKG offering except the 812. In comparison to the K7xx series you'll get to know what a real phantom center is, leading to an even and cohorent soundstage. K7xx series are weak in that regard where the phantom center is diffuse and hollow. 

post #23708 of 24820

the ones with flat headband are fake ? I have heard there are fake ones out there...

post #23709 of 24820
Thread Starter 
No. The ones with the flat headband are real. They are the updated versions made in China. That's all.
post #23710 of 24820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post


I only saw the one episode about soundcards... It was a bit like watching Bill O'Reilly, except there was nobody to provide a counterpoint (and talk over).
For consoles, the surround processors are also DACs (digital to analogue). Amps only provide the power for analogue signals. The Magni and Vali are amps... that's why they don't have digital inputs.

Soundcards are a step up in DAC quality and amping power compared to motherboards (the best motherboard integrated sound components are still noisier and less powerful than an entry-level card like an Asus Xonar DGS or Creative Soundblaster Z/Omni), and they also offer headphone surround processing. Motherboards are getting more capable and often are good enough to get by (used to be you had to add a soundcard to get audio AT ALL), and a dedicated headphone gear will still be another step up from soundcards, but soundcards still have their place and are convenient all-in-one solutions.

I think it's a bit much to compare anyone not on Fox to Bill O'Reilly... he did invite intelligent constructive criticism/comments/debate. So the moral is: motherboards<sound cards<DAC/Amp?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillhart View Post


You're missing out on a MAJOR factor: surround processing. It's why we use things like the mixamp and the omni.

If you want surround from your console, get a mixanp or recon and work from there.

If you ONLY want to listen to music from your PC, get a USB DAC and an amp (or a combo) and skip the sound card.

If you game on your PC, you need a sound card for surround processing. All sound cards are amp and DAC too, you can start with that and then expand over time. Add an amp and then a DAC if you feel the need to upgrade.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillhart View Post
 


That's what Grumpy is doing too, and I think it's your best "bang for the buck" config.  My $100 Schiit Modi DAC is nice, but it's not $100 better than my Omni. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy1471 View Post


That's why I love the Omni so far. Digital out and no audible hiss. The Mixamp 2013's hiss is very noticeable but not bad when I'm only gaming with it. I definitely prefer the Omni for everything else though.

 

Let me get this straight in my slow mind, digesting the content of the four above quotes. So when a machine is functioning as an amp, it necessarily takes analog input via RCA cables, amplifies it, and outputs analog via 3.5mm cable that can be heard by the human ear. When a machine functions as a DAC, it necessarily takes digital input via USB or optical and outputs analog. When a machine functions as a surround sound DSP, it takes digital input and can either output analog or digital (eg DSS for analog output or omni for digital output).

 

So what Grumpy means about the Omni (has digital out) and Stillhart means about not needing a $100 DAC is that the Omni can perform several functions? That it has digital out if you want something else to do the amping/dacing (so it can just do the surround processing), but it can also do the dacing itself so no need for the extra dedicated dac? So if you use an omni with digital out, you are bypassing the amp/dac functions of the soundcard?

And this is why a Magni/Vali has only RCA inputs.

 

But let's say I don't care about surround processing since I love stereo sound and don't care about competitiveness. I'd want stuff to game on PS3/PS4 and listen to music through PC. Some questions about sound superiority (if any):

1. Will a DAC+Amp for music on PC give superior sound to an all-in-one sound card?

2. The PS3 can output audio through optical or RCA. Will optical->opti-Modi->Magni/Vali->headphones be superior to RCA->Magni->headphones?

3. The PS4 can output audio through optical, RCA or USB. Which is superior, USB or optical input?

 

EDIT removed a dumb question 4 which didn't know that stereo headphones don't benefit from actual 5.1 surround sound.

 

PS: ATHM50 are $75 refurbished on Buydig. I thought they were very beloved, why don't I hear more about them on this thread?


Edited by mmencius - 5/13/14 at 11:48am
post #23711 of 24820
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmencius View Post
 

 

Let me get this straight in my slow mind, digesting the content of the four above quotes. So when a machine is functioning as an amp, it necessarily takes analog input via RCA cables, amplifies it, and outputs analog via 3.5mm cable that can be heard by the human ear. When a machine functions as a DAC, it necessarily takes digital input via USB or optical and outputs analog. When a machine functions as a surround sound DSP, it takes digital input and can either output analog or digital (eg DSS for analog output or omni for digital output).

 

So what Grumpy means about the Omni (has digital out) and Stillhart means about not needing a $100 DAC is that the Omni can perform several functions? That it has digital out if you want something else to do the amping/dacing (so it can just do the surround processing), but it can also do the dacing itself so no need for the extra dedicated dac? So if you use an omni with digital out, you are bypassing the amp/dac functions of the soundcard?

And this is why a Magni/Vali has only RCA inputs.

 

But let's say I don't care about surround processing since I love stereo sound and don't care about competitiveness. I'd want stuff to game on PS3/PS4 and listen to music through PC. Some questions about sound superiority (if any):

1. Will a DAC+Amp for music on PC give superior sound to an all-in-one sound card?

2. The PS3 can output audio through optical or RCA. Will optical->opti-Modi->Magni/Vali->headphones be superior to RCA->Magni->headphones?

3. The PS4 can output audio through optical, RCA or USB. Which is superior, USB or optical input?

 

EDIT removed a dumb question 4 which didn't know that stereo headphones don't benefit from actual 5.1 surround sound.

 

PS: ATHM50 are $75 refurbished on Buydig. I thought they were very beloved, why don't I hear more about them on this thread?

 

DSP takes a Digital Signal and Processes it into a different digital signal.  It passes the ditial signal to a DAC which Converts the Digital signal to Analog.  The analog signal gets passed to an Amp which Amplifies the signal so it can effectively drive the headphones being used.

 

A sound card in your computer does all three functions, though DSP is generally done in the software, not the hardware.  The issue is that the DAC and Amp being used in a sound card are generally not as good as dedicated DAC's or Amps.  This is because people don't tend to use the best headphones with them and can't hear the difference.

 

So to answer your direct questions:

 

1 - Absolutely.

2 - For gaming sound, I wouldn't bother with a dedicated DAC.  Run it through your AVR or, if you don't have one nearby, a dedicated amp like the Magni.  But if you're doing that, you should probably just get a Mixamp and enjoy some surround sound instead of the Magni for stereo sound.

3 - For the PS4, if you don't care about surround, just plug it into your controller and forget about it.

 

5 - This thread is about good headphones for 3D sound-whoring.  Those aren't thems.

 

EDIT - To be clear, DSP is a pretty general term that encompasses things like virtual surround processing, crossfading tracks, software EQ, etc.


Edited by Stillhart - 5/13/14 at 12:45pm
post #23712 of 24820
You got the moral of the story, yes. But as you learn more about audio and this hobby, you'd realize that some of their tips are good (basic stuff like higher bitrate encoding or lossless music files), but there is a liberal amount of content to make you squirm throughout the video. I could go over it and minute-by-minute respond to what they were saying in that video where they bury a $200 soundcard in the snow, but I'd get tired and nobody has time for that. Wasn't their guest speaker a maker of competitive products, and a sponsor of the show?

1. Yes, most of the time.
2. Depends, if you use the Ps3's RCA outputs then you'd be using the PS3's DAC, and I have no idea how good or bad that DAC is.
3. PS4 only has digital outputs, unless you count the output in the controller, and NO RCA. Assuming you're using the same DAC, there shouldn't be any practical SQ difference between optical and USB.
post #23713 of 24820

So my original Q4 was going to be something stupid, but I'll amend it a little: is there any way to connect console to dac/amp via HDMI? Isn't this the only way to carry lossless audio formats Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master?

Then I thought the question was stupid and removed it because a stereo headphone can't play actual surround sound (which those formats are). But then again: when my DSS is receiving a Dolby 5.1 actual surround sound signal, it does make use of that for processing Dolby Headphone, right? So why doesn't a high end dac like some of Schiit's stuff take HDMI input?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stillhart View Post

DSP takes a Digital Signal and Processes it into a different digital signal.  It passes the ditial signal to a DAC which Converts the Digital signal to Analog.  The analog signal gets passed to an Amp which Amplifies the signal so it can effectively drive the headphones being used.

A sound card in your computer does all three functions, though DSP is generally done in the software, not the hardware.  The issue is that the DAC and Amp being used in a sound card are generally not as good as dedicated DAC's or Amps.  This is because people don't tend to use the best headphones with them and can't hear the difference.

 

1 - Absolutely.

2 - For gaming sound, I wouldn't bother with a dedicated DAC.  Run it through your AVR or, if you don't have one nearby, a dedicated amp like the Magni.  But if you're doing that, you should probably just get a Mixamp and enjoy some surround sound instead of the Magni for stereo sound.

3 - For the PS4, if you don't care about surround, just plug it into your controller and forget about it.

 

5 - This thread is about good headphones for 3D sound-whoring.  Those aren't thems.

 

EDIT - To be clear, DSP is a pretty general term that encompasses things like virtual surround processing, crossfading tracks, software EQ, etc.

 

The PS4 controller must have a tiny amp, right? What else could they fit in that? So how would you get decent sound out of a good musical headphone like the Q701?

I thought most of this thread was for console gaming and it has been confirmed a zillion times that everything will do better with an amp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post

You got the moral of the story, yes. But as you learn more about audio and this hobby, you'd realize that some of their tips are good (basic stuff like higher bitrate encoding or lossless music files), but there is a liberal amount of content to make you squirm throughout the video. I could go over it and minute-by-minute respond to what they were saying in that video where they bury a $200 soundcard in the snow, but I'd get tired and nobody has time for that. Wasn't their guest speaker a maker of competitive products, and a sponsor of the show?

1. Yes, most of the time.
2. Depends, if you use the Ps3's RCA outputs then you'd be using the PS3's DAC, and I have no idea how good or bad that DAC is.
3. PS4 only has digital outputs, unless you count the output in the controller, and NO RCA. Assuming you're using the same DAC, there shouldn't be any practical SQ difference between optical and USB.

I see. Cheers, and no need to go through everything. So you agree that FLAC vs MP3 is largely placebo? Possibly stupid question: is this the case for lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and its DTS equivalent vs lossy formats Dolby/DTS?

post #23714 of 24820
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmencius View Post
 

 

The PS4 controller must have a tiny amp, right? What else could they fit in that? So how would you get decent sound out of a good musical headphone like the Q701?

I thought most of this thread was for console gaming and it has been confirmed a zillion times that everything will do better with an amp.

 

I see. Cheers, and no need to go through everything. So you agree that FLAC vs MP3 is largely placebo? Possibly stupid question: is this the case for lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and its DTS equivalent vs lossy formats Dolby/DTS?

I assumed you were using your console for gaming, not music, based on your line of questioning.  If that's the case, then you only need to worry about amping for volume levels, not for sound quality.  If the Q701 gets loud enough out of the controller, you don't need to amp it.  Of course if you get an efficient can like the X1, it's a non-issue.

 

And while everything soudns better with an amp, it's only going to sound as good as your source.  Game audio isn't going to be vastly improved from putting high quality audio gear in there.  Music (in a quality format) will.  FLAC's 100% sound better than 192k or V0 MP3's; it's definitely not placebo.  320k MP3's are much harder to distinguish.

post #23715 of 24820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillhart View Post
 

I assumed you were using your console for gaming, not music, based on your line of questioning.  If that's the case, then you only need to worry about amping for volume levels, not for sound quality.  If the Q701 gets loud enough out of the controller, you don't need to amp it.  Of course if you get an efficient can like the X1, it's a non-issue.

 

And while everything soudns better with an amp, it's only going to sound as good as your source.  Game audio isn't going to be vastly improved from putting high quality audio gear in there.  Music (in a quality format) will.  FLAC's 100% sound better than 192k or V0 MP3's; it's definitely not placebo.  320k MP3's are much harder to distinguish.

I don't understand: many games' soundtracks are recorded with a live orchestra, and consoles can output lossless audio format: why is game audio of low quality? I remember when I first asked on this thread, you recommended the Q701 to me. If game audio isn't going to be improved much from audio gear, what about the choice of headphone itself? So are you saying that good headphones for gaming are mainly for the surround effect and not for the SQ of in game audio?

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