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Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide: (Update: 7/9/2014: Ultrasone HFI-15G Added) - Page 1331

post #19951 of 24858

Pro logic II turns 2 discreet channels into 5.1 channels.

Pro logic IIturns 2.0 and 5.1 discreet channels into 7.1 channels.

 

 

and then we have Pro Logic IIz

 

To Mad Lust Envy : 

 

If we set the input to 7.1, and turn DH on, we always get virtual 7.1, no matter  what game we play ? [Games could output 7.1 or 5.1 channels]

post #19952 of 24858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam21 View Post
 

Pro logic II turns 2 discreet channels into 5.1 channels.

Pro logic IIturns 2.0 and 5.1 discreet channels into 7.1 channels.

 

 

and then we have Pro Logic IIz

 

To Mad Lust Envy : 

 

If we set the input to 7.1, and turn DH on, we always get virtual 7.1, no matter  what game we play ? [Games could output 7.1 or 5.1 channels]

Remember there is no free lunch. Pro Logic doesnt give you something that wasnt there in the source. If you want the best perfromance with Dolby Headphone, you need to have Dolby Digital 5.1 as the source, NOT pre-processed 2ch Pro Logic.

post #19953 of 24858
Quote:
Originally Posted by rc10mike View Post
 

Remember there is no free lunch. Pro Logic doesnt give you something that wasnt there in the source. If you want the best perfromance with Dolby Headphone, you need to have Dolby Digital 5.1 as the source, NOT pre-processed 2ch Pro Logic.

 

You mean a source that outputs 5.1 discreet channels? 

post #19954 of 24858

No one should be using Pro Logic for any modern PC or console game.

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

What's the difference between Pro Logic II and Dolby Headphone?/What is Pro Logic II?

  •  

Pro logic is mainly good for older consoles and devices that are limited to 2 channel output (such as the Wii).  In those cases, where the device is limited to 2 channel output, Pro Logic II is the next best alternative to having true multi channel audio.   

 

Basically, there's two kinds of Pro Logic:  One is where you take a plain 2 channel signal and expand it to 5.1.  This is what will happen if you try and use Pro Logic with any modern console, as they only have plain stereo tracks and aren't encoded for Pro Logic II (because they don't need to be, as they have actual 5.1 tracks and output).

 

The other kind of Pro logic is where you actually encode your stereo track for Pro Logic II beforehand, then later decode it/expand it to multi-channel surround.  From Dolby: "Stereo soundtracks, while maintaining compatibility with standard stereo playback, can also be encoded to deliver specific surround and localization effects when played through a Dolby Pro Logic II decoder."  This is what devices like the Wii do.  When you encode a stereo track for Pro Logic, it adds certain spacial cues to the stereo signal that, when expanded later, do a more convincing job of emulating 5.1 surround than if you had just used a regular stereo signal as the source for that expansion.  

 

Basically consoles like the Wii are aware of their limitation of only being able to output 2 channels, so as a partial workaround they choose to encode their stereo tracks with the Pro Logic II spatial cues.  It's obviously not as good as having true 5.1 channels, but it at least lets them upscale their 2 channel content to a 5.1 channel ouput (via any Pro Logic II decoding device such as a Home Theater AVR - or a mixamp) in a more convincing matter than if they had just used a plain stereo signal. 

 So when you plug a 2 channel console like the Wii into a Mixamp, what happens is the Wii outputs its Pro Logic II encoded stereo signal to the mixamp, the Mixamp decodes that signal via its Pro Logic II decoder and simultaneously expands the signal to 5.1 (making use of those Pro Logic spatial cues in the process).  Finally the Mixamp takes that freshly upscaled 5.1 channel signal and encodes that into Dolby Headphone (a 2 channel stereo signal for use with your headphones).  On a modern console with Dolby Digital 5.1 output, none of those Pro Logic II steps are needed.  The console simply outputs DD 5.1 directly to the Mixamp, the Mixamp takes those 5 channels and converts them into Dolby Headphone, and you're good to go.

 

Here is a description from Dolby about Pro Logic II as it pertains to gaming.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/gaming/dolby-pro-logic-ii.html 

 

For modern gaming, Pro Logic II is not needed, as games and consoles are no longer limited to 2 channel output (like they were with the Wii, PS2, Gamecube, etc).  The game audio in modern PC and console games already support multi channel 5.1 surround, and the consoles are capable of multi-channel output already (Dolby Digital 5.1, etc).  So there is no need to use Pro Logic, either to embed spatial cues into stereo tracks or even expand those stereo tracks in the first place.  Using Pro Logic would be unnecessary and inferior to using the already-there 5.1 surround sound.  So really the only reason time you should be using Pro Logic II is if your gaming on a PS2, a GCN, or a Wii.  

 

If your using Pro logic with a modern console or PC game, your doing it wrong.

 

 

post #19955 of 24858

Speaking of PLII, I was playing Xenogears on the PS3 the other day. Now, some may remember that Xenogears has an option of widening its stereo output like the way PLII does, a faux 5.1.

 

For the heck of it, I did set the DSS into PLII mode and enabled the stereo wide option in the game and guess what... it sounded, surprisingly good. The midi soundtracks sounded more like an ochestra than midi, which is close in line to to the Xenogears Ochestra OST album. Obviously, it isn't suppose to sound like that and it isn't a correct way of listening to a game.

 

But hey, Xenogears... 1998, an RPG... who cares right? 

 

Those who have it on the PS3 (or even still a PS1), try it out. :)

post #19956 of 24858
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam21 View Post

Pro logic II turns 2 discreet channels into 5.1 channels.
Pro logic IIturns 2.0 and 5.1 discreet channels into 7.1 channels.


and then we have Pro Logic IIz

To Mad Lust Envy : 

If we set the input to 7.1, and turn DH on, we always get virtual 7.1, no matter  what game we play ? [Games could output 7.1 or 5.1 channels]

No. The game must have discrete channels built into its sound. For example, lots of indie games only do stereo.

But for most standard titles, yes, you'll get surround.

If listening to music, just uncheck the DH button in the U3 software settings.
post #19957 of 24858

Do I have to explain Dolby Pro Logic II again?

 

For our purposes, it's a DECODER. Enabling that decoder on a two-channel signal with no Pro Logic channel data matrixed into it (usually with out-of-phase trickery for the rear channels) is completely pointless, like trying to somehow enable a Dolby Digital or DTS decoder on a two-channel PCM stream.

 

It's just that the Dolby Digital and DTS decoders can be automatically enabled and disabled as needed, since it's easy for a device to tell what kind of signal it's getting over S/PDIF and HDMI. Analog inputs? Not so much, hence why Pro Logic needs to be manually switched.

 

There are Pro Logic II channel tests out there to tell you whether it's working right or not. SoulCalibur II had one built-in, for an example off the top of my head, and you could probably find some environmental sound in Metroid Prime to test with.

 

Yes, discrete surround is better than matrixed surround; there's inherently less crosstalk when you can keep the signals separate. But even matrixed surround, decoded properly by a device that supports it, is better than just plain stereo.

post #19958 of 24858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Change is Good View Post

@JamesFiiO
, can you please manufacture a device (with a Dolby Headphone processor and chat capability) that will blow the other competition away?!? I know you can do it! I mean, you are FiiO!!!

Everyone who agrees quote me with a +1

That should grab they're attention
Lots of plus-1s (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post

+2
Using a FiiO E17 with a surround DSP added would easily blow the competition away, but HDMI passthrough (instead of coaxial?) would make it future-proof.

(Is this posted on a FiiO page? And if so, which one?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post

+1

10/10 would do again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post

@JamesFiiO

Seriously, I have been a Fiio fan since picking up the E5 as my very first amp.

E5, E7, E9, E9K, E17, E12, D3, D03K

I have owned all of these, MULTIPLE times for some.

I would be first in line for an equivalent to the E17 with Dolby Headphone virtual surround capabilities. (DH2)

I have been waiting to recommend a Dolby headphone dac/amp that would also work for non-gaming applications when turning DH off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Change is Good View Post

+1 on the E17 similarity but without the rechargeable battery, please (strictly USB powered like the mixamp, Recon USB, DSS, etc). I think we all would prefer more internal room for better performance...

I don't know... I'm looking at these posts but I'm not familiar with this market. I know the principle--preset a device as a 7.1 sound card to the PC, funnel the 8 channels received into 2 channel headphone output via HRTF processing, add a mic input for those in-game group calls... so can somebody summarize the current offerings on the market? And what do you guys find lacking about them? Is it mainly a lack of amplifier fidelity? So you want us to do the same thing as they are doing, but with a better amp section, maybe a line out and digital out for connecting to even better DACs and amps? Or is there something you want us to do better about the digital processing section too?
Edited by Joe Bloggs - 1/12/14 at 10:47am
post #19959 of 24858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

I don't know... I'm looking at these posts but I'm not familiar with this market. I know the principle--preset a device as a 7.1 sound card to the PC, funnel the 8 channels received into 2 channel headphone output via HRTF processing, add a mic input for those in-game group calls... so can somebody summarize the current offerings on the market? And what do you guys find lacking about them? Is it mainly a lack of amplifier fidelity? So you want us to do the same thing as they are doing, but with a better amp section, maybe a line out and digital out for connecting to even better DACs and amps? Or is there something you want us to do better about the digital processing section too?

 

We want a better DAC, better amp, multiple inputs, and of course mic input for chat with console support. I'd love for it to have USB input as well for PC and console gaming. There's only one device that I know of that can natively handle console, PC and Mac gaming without additional hardware, and that's the Creative Recon3D USB. I'd love for a device from Fiio that directly competes with it and has multiple inputs with Fiio's better amps and DAC. Currently I have to amp off my Recon3D to get the best sound.

 

Console

Astro Mixamp

Creative Recon3D USB

Tritton 720+ 

Turtle Beach DSS

 

PC

Asus Xonar U1/2/3/7

Creative Recon3D USB

Creative Sound Blaster Omni

Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi

 

Mac

Creative Recon3D USB

Creative Sound Blaster Omni

 

There may be more than this out there but these are all the ones that are coming to mind. I can update the list if people have more that I'm overlooking or forgetting. This list is specifically devices that let you bring your own headphones. Devices that are exclusively paired with a single headset should not be considered.


Edited by AxelCloris - 1/12/14 at 11:00am
post #19960 of 24858

All current devices that do HRTF processing are generally bad with the exception of the Beyerdynamic Headzone which is very expensive or let's say too expensive for the gamer market (plus it doesn't have voice support) so excluding that device we are left with generally bad devices with high impedance outputs, low frequency cutoff (35Hz), hiss, high noisefloor, bad amping in general. We have no better choice, it's downright sad. 

 

The current best offer is the Astro Gaming Mixamp which uses Dolby Headphone like most of these devices actually (beyerdynamic is using their own formula). It suffers from hiss, high noise floor, doesn't extend below 35Hz and has an impedance out of ridiculous 32Ohms, yet it's better than all others. That's how bad the situation is.

 

The features you mentioned are what we actually want:

 

Console/PC with Dolby Digital and DTS (would be best if possible) output--> FiiO Device with Dolby Headphone (DH 2)/AstoundSound/DTS Headphone X, any current good HRTF DSP-> binaural stereo signal -> Headphone Out

 

Low impedance output, better amp section. The possibility to output the fully processed binaural stereo signal to digital out for other dac/amps would be superb actually.


Edited by Fegefeuer - 1/12/14 at 11:09am
post #19961 of 24858
Can you adjust Chat volume with the Creative Recon3D usb? And is it better than the astro mixamp?
post #19962 of 24858
Quote:
Originally Posted by AxelCloris View Post
 

 

We want a better DAC, better amp, multiple inputs, and of course mic input for chat with console support. I'd love for it to have USB input as well for PC and console gaming. There's only one device that I know of that can natively handle console, PC and Mac gaming without additional hardware, and that's the Creative Recon3D USB. I'd love for a device from Fiio that directly competes with it and has multiple inputs with Fiio's better amps and DAC. Currently I have to amp off my Recon3D to get the best sound.

 

Console

Astro Mixamp

Creative Recon3D USB

Tritton 720+ 

Turtle Beach DSS

 

PC

Asus Xonar U1/2/3/7

Creative Recon3D USB

Creative Sound Blaster Omni

Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi

 

Mac

Creative Recon3D USB

Creative Sound Blaster Omni

 

There may be more than this out there but these are all the ones that are coming to mind. I can update the list if people have more that I'm overlooking or forgetting. This list is specifically devices that let you bring your own headphones. Devices that are exclusively paired with a single headset should not be considered.

I guess a DAC/amp unit, like the E17, that supports DTS processing [Dolby Headphone mainly], has digital inputs [optical, usb, HDMI], possible some analogue inputs [RCA in, line in] a headphone out and possibly an HDMI output too. We need the outputs to output the DSP processed sound too.

It would be cool if it could stand as a DSP processor only [like the U3 can] so we can connect our own DAC/amps to it as well.

Works with both PC and consoles. I don't personally mind either if the unit runs off DC or usb power.

An all-in-one gaming unit basically.


Edited by conquerator2 - 1/12/14 at 11:11am
post #19963 of 24858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

I don't know... I'm looking at these posts but I'm not familiar with this market. I know the principle--preset a device as a 7.1 sound card to the PC, funnel the 8 channels received into 2 channel headphone output via HRTF processing, add a mic input for those in-game group calls... so can somebody summarize the current offerings on the market? And what do you guys find lacking about them? Is it mainly a lack of amplifier fidelity? So you want us to do the same thing as they are doing, but with a better amp section, maybe a line out and digital out for connecting to even better DACs and amps? Or is there something you want us to do better about the digital processing section too?

 

You're on the right track...

 

Also, we went ahead and made a dedicated thread for it here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/699717/petition-for-a-gaming-device-from-fiio

post #19964 of 24858
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1llest View Post

Can you adjust Chat volume with the Creative Recon3D usb? And is it better than the astro mixamp?

 

If you're asking can you increase the chat volume in my headset like the Mixamp, yes I can in the Recon's software settings. But it's not something you can do while on the console, you have to set it beforehand. If you're asking about boosting it for others to hear, no idea. I wouldn't say that it's necessarily better than the Mixamp. The Recon handles THX TrueSound and the Mixamp does Dolby Headphone. They're different and everyone has preferences. I personally like both. I chose the Recon as it has native Mac support and I game on Mac and PC.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by conquerator2 View Post
 

I guess a DAC/amp unit, like the E17, that supports DTS processing [Dolby Headphone mainly], has digital inputs [optical, usb, HDMI],a headphone out and possibly an HDMI output too.

It would be cool if it could stand as a DSP processor only [like the U3 can] so we can connect our own DAC/amps to it as well.

 

The digital output could be useful to console gamers, I'll agree. I feel that with PC gaming most will just run an integrated card out to my DAC/amp and go from there. So if they can integrate a digital out it might help console gamers. I'd still prefer to see better integrated components than those in the Mixamp and Recon3D so another DAC/amp won't be needed.

post #19965 of 24858
Does anyone know the difference between the creative recon3d and the soundblaster omni surround? Features seem the same.. but im not really sure..
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