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Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide: (5/31/2015: Beyer COP+ and Shure 1540 added) - Page 1034

post #15496 of 31559
Thread Starter 
Thats because dts was converted to dolby before processing and then to DH. The Marantz receivers did the same. Dolby headphone is just that, a dolby encoder for headphones. This is why devices like the Mixamp and DSS will never do proper surround unless its a DD signal. In the case of the PS3 bitstream mix option, I assume the PS3 internally changes DTS to Dolby Digital, or there is a hidden Dolby container in the audio file that you cant access other than through special situations. That is why blu-rays encoded in DTS can go to Dolby Headphone... ONLY in Bitstream mix, and not Bitstream direct, while the rare Dolby enabked blu-ray can do DH regardless of bitstream setting (I.e. G.I. Joe Retaliation). In the case if the JVC Su-Dh1, they sound identical probably because DTS was converted to Dolby format. That is why there is no sq difference.

It makes sense for Dolby to have some form of method to convert DTS into DD, because if DTS directly into Dolby Headphone was possible, there wouldn't be any reason why things like the Mixamp couldn't do it.



Unless the encoder gets a DD signal, youre just gonna get upmixed stereo or nothing at all.

What needs to be done is that all devices should have whatever hardware is allowing it to convert DTS into a file that Dolby Headphone can read.
Edited by Mad Lust Envy - 7/31/13 at 7:15am
post #15497 of 31559
Thread Starter 
As for 5.1 pcm vs 5.1dd, I'm betting 100% its because that 5.1pcm signal is getting converted to Dolby for the device to read, and varies by device (receivers may, other devices like the Mixamp won't).

If you try that on external devices like the Mixamp, and Recond 3d usb, the pcm signal won't go into proper DH. Quote me on that. Somewhere in their manuals, it states it must be set to DOLBY DIGITAL 5.1 for them to get DH.
Edited by Mad Lust Envy - 7/31/13 at 7:21am
post #15498 of 31559

I was more just referring to your first post where it stated it had to come from a Dolby Digital signal. I understand that an optical cable (which the Mixamp and DSS use) can't support more than 2 channel PCM. Also, I found this link as well. Look at number 5, not saying it is true, but I would like to think they know what they are talking about with their marketing.

 

Perhaps we should just email Dolby to find out for sure.

 

-Erik

post #15499 of 31559
Thread Starter 
Umm, optical cables can take in 5 channels, IIRC.

And like I figured, DH can be done once a signal has gone back to PCM, but what's not said, is that a raw PCM file won't be proper DH. Unless the device supports it (converting PCM to DD, more than likely), PCM audio files are not gonna be real Dolby Headphone. You can try that with any source. Try that with the Mixamp, DSS, Recond 3D. PCM simply will not convert into DH. IT MUST BE DOLBY DIGITAL, unless the source converts internally.

What I believe is happening when PCM DOES work, is that the raw PCM file gets converted into Dolby Digital first, then into DH. But again, only some devices do that, like older Marantz receivers.

Like that link mentioned as well, some 2 channel audio will convert into a lower tier Dolby Headphone (Nintendo Wii plays in this ghetto DH because the Wii has a Pro Logic II option). Usually what happens when a Dolby Digital signal is sent through an RCA connection (thus making it send Pro Logic II instead, which is embedded in DD signals, FWIR). However, IT MUST be taken from DPLII. A basic stereo signal will not work, which is when you get the nonsense up sampled stereo.
Edited by Mad Lust Envy - 7/31/13 at 8:24am
post #15500 of 31559

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/07/31/xbox-one-headset-adapter-confirmed-by-microsoft

 

We should be happy that they will at least provide an adapter for us to use our current headphones, however I still think it should be included in the box!

 

 

BTW is there anybody else getting both consoles at launch? I currently have both on pre-order

post #15501 of 31559

I have a PC. I have no need for (additional) machinesbiggrin.gif


Edited by Tus-Chan - 7/31/13 at 8:43am
post #15502 of 31559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubtoad View Post

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/07/31/xbox-one-headset-adapter-confirmed-by-microsoft

 

We should be happy that they will at least provide an adapter for us to use our current headphones, however I still think it should be included in the box!

 

 

BTW is there anybody else getting both consoles at launch? I currently have both on pre-order

 

I was just about to post about this.

 

Great news. Which means now it will simply just be Xbox One Controller > Adapter > Old Mic port on the good ole' Astro Mixamp... no need for a whole new Mixamp.

 

As long as the adapter is reasonably priced, I don't mind it being sold separately.

post #15503 of 31559
Quote:
Originally Posted by firefly89 View Post

With the dss/mix amp, do you have to feed it a Dolby digital (true surround signal) for it to process to Dolby headphone, or can it do it from a stereo source
Because surely optical can only output coded Dolby digital or 2 channel lpcm, so although consoles code output to Dolby digital it wouldn't work on pc unless you're running with Dolby digital live?

Correct - you need dolby digital live output on PC for DH to work on the dss

post #15504 of 31559

good job I realised this before sending the  xonar back for the DSS

 

will keep xonar, and get DSS for ps3 use

post #15505 of 31559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tus-Chan View Post

I have a PC. I have no need for (additional) machinesbiggrin.gif

I have a decent PC too. I5-3570k with a GTX 670, 8GB ram etc etc.

 

But it doesn't play Sony/Nintendo exclusives, and doesn't play certain Microsoft/Console Exclusives.

 

 

and yeah I'm glad that Astro won't have to make a new mixamp specifically for the Xbox 1, but they probably will make one anyways hah

 

far as I can tell nothing should change between ps3/ps4. At least nothing that has been announced.

post #15506 of 31559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post



What I believe is happening when PCM DOES work, is that the raw PCM file gets converted into Dolby Digital first, then into DH. But again, only some devices do that, like older Marantz receivers.

so in theory, with an 'older' marantz amp- I could output HDMI 6 channel PCM, or 6 channel analogue, and get dolby headphone working, on a mac. In movies with DD already, and if the amp has built in DDL coding, then multi channel games and multi channel movie files will also be converted into true DD, and then into true DH

 

if so, that would be great

post #15507 of 31559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubtoad View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tus-Chan View Post

I have a PC. I have no need for (additional) machinesbiggrin.gif

I have a decent PC too. I5-3570k with a GTX 670, 8GB ram etc etc.

 

But it doesn't play Sony/Nintendo exclusives, and doesn't play certain Microsoft/Console Exclusives.

 

 

and yeah I'm glad that Astro won't have to make a new mixamp specifically for the Xbox 1, but they probably will make one anyways hah

 

far as I can tell nothing should change between ps3/ps4. At least nothing that has been announced.

Sure it can...via emulator! :)

post #15508 of 31559
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

Sure it can...via emulator! :)


Yeah, but there's at least a 10 year gap for every console Sony.

post #15509 of 31559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post
Umm, optical cables can take in 5 channels, IIRC.

And like I figured, DH can be done once a signal has gone back to PCM, but what's not said, is that a raw PCM file won't be proper DH. Unless the device supports it (converting PCM to DD, more than likely), PCM audio files are not gonna be real Dolby Headphone. You can try that with any source. Try that with the Mixamp, DSS, Recond 3D. PCM simply will not convert into DH. IT MUST BE DOLBY DIGITAL, unless the source converts internally.

What I believe is happening when PCM DOES work, is that the raw PCM file gets converted into Dolby Digital first, then into DH. But again, only some devices do that, like older Marantz receivers.

Like that link mentioned as well, some 2 channel audio will convert into a lower tier Dolby Headphone (Nintendo Wii plays in this ghetto DH because the Wii has a Pro Logic II option). Usually what happens when a Dolby Digital signal is sent through an RCA connection (thus making it send Pro Logic II instead, which is embedded in DD signals, FWIR). However, IT MUST be taken from DPLII. A basic stereo signal will not work, which is when you get the nonsense up sampled stereo.

 

The ONLY reason S/PDIF cables can handle more than two channels of audio is because the extra channels require lossy compression. That's how Dolby Digital/AC-3 and DTS work in the first place; they throw away data from the PCM channels in order to get them to fit into limited S/PDIF bandwidth. Then, once the signal hits the decoder, each channel is decoded back into PCM, albeit not identical PCM due to said data loss. It's at that point that Dolby Headphone is applied to the reconstructed PCM channels.

 

HDMI obviously does not have this limitation, so I see absolutely no need for a Dolby Digital source conversion. Dolby Headphone would just apply the processing straight to the unchanged PCM channels. Any additional steps would be needlessly complicated and degrading on sound quality. And of course, it's not a bandwidth limitation for USB, PCI, and PCI-Express when talking about PC sound cards.

 

It also wouldn't make much sense to decode a DTS signal into PCM, RE-encode it into AC-3/Dolby Digital, and then apply DH to that for the same reasons. Or, for that matter, neuter Dolby TrueHD and DTS-Master Audio tracks on Blu-ray movies into their cut-down versions before applying DH. It's just not logical, especially considering that if the C-Media chipset sound cards are any indication, DH does support full 7.1 if it can get a full 7.1 signal to work with.

 

The important part you want to drive home isn't whether the signal is encoded in PCM or DD, but whether or not the signal is stereo or surround. As you mentioned with Dolby Pro Logic II, that's a case of matrixed surround that can be carried over two analog channels and decoded with the right processor, but could easily be mistaken for stereo otherwise, especially since a receiver or headphone surround processor can't detect PL2 encoding like it can DD or DTS. And as for PCM, it's only cut down to stereo with S/PDIF.


Edited by NamelessPFG - 7/31/13 at 1:35pm
post #15510 of 31559
Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessPFG View Post

The ONLY reason S/PDIF cables can handle more than two channels of audio is because the extra channels require lossy compression. That's how Dolby Digital/AC-3 and DTS work in the first place; they throw away data from the PCM channels in order to get them to fit into limited S/PDIF bandwidth. Then, once the signal hits the decoder, each channel is decoded back into PCM, albeit not identical PCM due to said data loss. It's at that point that Dolby Headphone is applied to the reconstructed PCM channels.

HDMI obviously does not have this limitation, so I see absolutely no need for a Dolby Digital source conversion. Dolby Headphone would just apply the processing straight to the unchanged PCM channels. Any additional steps would be needlessly complicated and degrading on sound quality. And of course, it's not a bandwidth limitation for USB, PCI, and PCI-Express when talking about PC sound cards.

It also wouldn't make much sense to decode a DTS signal into PCM, RE-encode it into AC-3/Dolby Digital, and then apply DH to that for the same reasons. Or, for that matter, neuter Dolby TrueHD and DTS-Master Audio tracks on Blu-ray movies into their cut-down versions before applying DH. It's just not logical, especially considering that if the C-Media chipset sound cards are any indication, DH does support full 7.1 if it can get a full 7.1 signal to work with.

The important part you want to drive home isn't whether the signal is encoded in PCM or DD, but whether or not the signal is stereo or surround. As you mentioned with Dolby Pro Logic II, that's a case of matrixed surround that can be carried over two analog channels and decoded with the right processor, but could easily be mistaken for stereo otherwise, especially since a receiver or headphone surround processor can't detect PL2 encoding like it can DD or DTS. And as for PCM, it's only cut down to stereo with S/PDIF.

Thanks Nameless, that is how I was gathering it worked as well.

-Erik
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