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Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide: (3/18/2016: MrSpeakers Ether C 1.1 Added) - Page 406

post #6076 of 37369
Thread Starter 
Uhh, Pro Logic is also processed into Dolby Headphone. It has just as good surround cues as Dolby Digital being converted into DH, but it just sounds more processed. Pro Logic isn't a headphone tech. It's just the process of virtualizing surround through a 2 channel signal... mostly useful if your source has RCA output, and not digital.

I fail to see how a receiver that mentions Dolby Headphone, would be anything less than the actual Dolby Headphone. DH is just the process that takes a Dolby Digital/Pro Logic signal and converts it for headphones.

If the signal being being sent to the receiver is Dolby Digital, the receiver will convert it to Dolby headphone. It's the same exact processing that the Mixamp/DSS/AX720/etc do, just built into the receiver. In fact the receiver will probably have more than just one standardized setting found on these amps.

Obviously, a Dolby Digital signal can only be sent via optical, digital coaxial, or HDMI.

Or am I not understanding what you're trying to say?
Edited by Mad Lust Envy - 7/1/12 at 3:09pm
post #6077 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post

Uhh, Pro Logic is also processed into Dolby Headphone. It has just as good surround cues as Dolby Digital being converted into DH, but it just sounds more processed. Pro Logic isn't a headphone tech. It's just the process of virtualizing surround through a 2 channel signal... mostly useful if your source has RCA output, and not digital.
I fail to see how a receiver that mentions Dolby Headphone, would be anything less than the actual Dolby Headphone. DH is just the process that takes a Dolby Digital/Pro Logic signal and converts it for headphones.
If the signal being being sent to the receiver is Dolby Digital, the receiver will convert it to Dolby headphone. It's the same exact processing that the Mixamp/DSS/AX720/etc do, just built into the receiver. In fact the receiver will probably have more than just one standardized setting found on these amps.
Obviously, a Dolby Digital signal can only be sent via optical, digital coaxial, or HDMI.
Or am I not understanding what you're trying to say?

 

Dolby Pro logic can decode 5 signals from a 2-channel audio track. Which was great as VHS can only have 2 audio channel tracks (I guess?), so you get some surround sound.

DVD can have 6 separate audio channels (5.1) on one disk (lots of room), I'm sure each one channel holds more audio then then one channel on VHS.

I'm also guessing having 6 (5.1) separate channels (audio signals?) is cleaner then 2-channels holding 5 audio signals.

Dobly Digital 5.1 is what to audio is called on DVD movie disks.

Dolby Vitrual Headphone can take all 6 (or 8) channels and convert is to 2-channels that feed into headphone

Dolby Pro Logic for Headphones is only design to work with (access) a 2-channel feed, not design to work with separate 6 to 8 channel feed

Anyone that want to include some form of Dobly Headphone in their device, VHS tape, VHS players, DVDs, Blu-ray, receivers, etc. has to pay Dolby royalties.

Dolby says if you want to have a receiver with Dolby Pro Logic for headphones, pay Dolby $1 for each receiver

Dolby says if you want to have a receiver with Dolby Virtual Headphone pay $3 for each receiver.

Receiver manufacturers want to keep cost down, so they one pay the $1 per receiver, but they still get to label their receivers with the title "Dolby Headphone".

This is really dealing in theory with Dolby headphone only, not about how payments work for all the other Dolby tech.

 

Maybe a better way to explain it.

Those that manufacturer the chips and other stuff that go into everything audio.

I'm guessing they pay the royalties to Dolby

So a chip that includes Dolby Pro Logic (Headphone) pays an extra .50 cents per chip, and (Dolby Virtual Headphone) 5.1 pays an extra $1.50 per chip.

 

I'm guessing sound cards use Dolby processed in software, maybe the card makers pay a fixed fee once a year to include all the Dolby software.

As it's software, it's a very cheap royaltie to include Dobly Virtual Headphone.

 

I'm not sure how exact my figures are in what i've written, more of a theory about the royalties, just to get the idea acrossed.

 

I keep having to rewrites this because Firefox keeps crashing every five minutes, so I was a bit rushed in writing, may need to fix it in the future.


Edited by PurpleAngel - 7/1/12 at 9:53pm
post #6078 of 37369
Thread Starter 
What is confusing is me about what you're saying is that Pro Logic isn't a headphone tech. There is absolutely nothing Dolby pro Logic related when plugging in your headphones to a receiver with it, other than when Dolby headphone is enabled, if they do have it. The only way to get Dolby Pro Logic to your headphones is with Dolby Headphone/or some other form of headphone surround tech. There is no benefit to labeling a receiver Dolby Headphone, if it only has Dolby Pro Logic.
Quote:
Dolby says if you want to have a receiver with Dolby Pro Logic for headphones, pay Dolby $1 for each receiver

That makes no sense. There is no Dolby Pro Logic for headphones unless the Pro Logic is re-processed for two channel, meaning Dolby Headphone HAS to be used. That or some no-name surround virtualization for headphones.

Pro Logic is turning two channel audio to multiple channel (for multiple speakers). That does not work on headphones.

There is no reason to believe a Denon receiver labelled as having Dolby Headphone wouldn't have it. Again, Pro Logic is not a headphone tech, and wouldn't ever reach your headphones without something converting it back to 2 channel.

The only possibility of full mislabeling is if the receiver states as having Dolby Headphone, and there not being any form of surround emulation when wearing headphones. Again: Pro Logic is simply not a thing for headphones. Stuff like the Mixamp turns Pro Logic into Dolby Headphone, and that's the only possible way to get it to your ears without it being plain stereo with no surround emulation.

edit: Let me clarify... Pro Logic on headphones isn't possible on typical headphones. Unless you have a multiple driver headphone like the Logitech G35/Tritton AX pro which are basically a surround sound setup directly on your head...and not very good ones.

The end result of Pro Logic is multiple channel audio. It's the same result as Dolby Digital. Sure, Pro Logic originated from a 2 channel source, but it ends up as multi-channel.

You can't have Dolby Digital on your headphones without processing back down to two channel. Same goes for Pro Logic. Dolby Headphone is one such processing.

That is why I question what you're saying, as you can't have Pro Logic go to the headphones without DH, therefore making your whole argument about the Denon receivers illogical.
Edited by Mad Lust Envy - 7/1/12 at 5:48pm
post #6079 of 37369
Whew! Been catching up on this thread for days, though I still missed a lot of stuff. By catching up I mean last time I read this was before MLE added the Q701 section, I think.

I would love some advice, though I realize asking here is likely to give me a particular response, lol. I've tried making my own mind up, and I'm leaning one way, but I would greatly appreciate outside opinions.

First off, I currently own the AD700, Sennheiser PX100, Etymotic ER6i IEMs, and I just recently bought a pair of V-MODA Crossfade LP by accident. Now, I'm still quite into gaming, mostly CoD4 (yes people still play that, though every other host seems to be modded these days), Halo Reach, and my adventure games (Dead Space, Red Dead Redemption, Alan Wake, Batman:AA & City... Myst. Any new myst-esque games?).
I also love music, such as Arcade Fire (alt-rock with many layers), Philip Glass (instead of doing weed LOL, classical music with soundstage & layers), and occasionally trip-hop and dub (which I think are better suited to speakers and subwoofers).
I like to hear music as the artist and producer wanted them mixed, but at the same time I find myself getting bored or un-immersed when listening through my AD700 compared to the overly-bassy V-MODA LPs, which themselves lack the detail of the AD700.

The meat of my question: would I notice a fuller sound (and still the great gaming I enjoy using my AD700s) if I upgraded to the AKG Q701, or should I wait for the soon-to-be-released V-MODA M-100 closed headphones?
People rave about the V-MODA M-80 that the M-100's signature is based on, plus an amp is optional and wouldn't be too unusual to use on an airplane or other commuting, MEANWHILE the AKG sound is closer to the signature I enjoy in my AD700s, just hopefully increasing the presence, immersion, and detail-separation, while providing the non-overheating comfort and layered soundstage I love about my AD700s. If anyone reads my pretty in-depth AD700 review, I mention at the end what I think is lacking in my current set-up.

Please help an endless waffler make his mind up? I did enjoy my AD700s for many years, but I only tend to take them out of their box now when I have a new album as I am waiting till I move out of my mom's to set up my permenant reference set-up (for gaming and music, about 60:40%). Thank you much guys!
post #6080 of 37369
Thread Starter 
The Q701 is a gigantic leap over the AD700 in sound quality. Everything you have an issue with the AD700s is more or less addressed with the Q701. It's the most logical upgrade.

The V Modas are closed headphones, which can't compare in terms of the sound presentation in an open headphone.
Edited by Mad Lust Envy - 7/1/12 at 5:49pm
post #6081 of 37369

Well, this process is going to take a while, but these replies are educational. Thanks for that. By the way, what is thought of the K550s for gaming?

post #6082 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evshrug View Post

The meat of my question: would I notice a fuller sound (and still the great gaming I enjoy using my AD700s) if I upgraded to the AKG Q701, or should I wait for the soon-to-be-released V-MODA M-100 closed headphones?\

 

 

Yes.  The day I got my Q701s I put my AD700s up for sale.  I was holding on to the AD700s because they were special to me (my first audiophile headphones!), but after I heard the Q701 I knew I would never listen to the AD700 again.  The Q701s have less soundstage width, but they do everything else better and have infinitely more bass and fullness.

 

 

I'm not holding my breath for any V-moda headphones to perform great at gaming as they're a completely different beast (closed, supra-aural, etc.).

post #6083 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post

What is confusing is me about what you're saying is that Pro Logic isn't a headphone tech. There is absolutely nothing Dolby pro Logic related when plugging in your headphones to a receiver with it, other than when Dolby headphone is enabled, if they do have it. The only way to get Dolby Pro Logic to your headphones is with Dolby Headphone/or some other form of headphone surround tech. There is no benefit to labeling a receiver Dolby Headphone, if it only has Dolby Pro Logic.
Quote:
Dolby says if you want to have a receiver with Dolby Pro Logic for headphones, pay Dolby $1 for each receiver
That makes no sense. There is no Dolby Pro Logic for headphones unless the Pro Logic is re-processed for two channel, meaning Dolby Headphone HAS to be used. That or some no-name surround virtualization for headphones.
Pro Logic is turning two channel audio to multiple channel (for multiple speakers). That does not work on headphones.
There is no reason to believe a Denon receiver labelled as having Dolby Headphone wouldn't have it. Again, Pro Logic is not a headphone tech, and wouldn't ever reach your headphones without something converting it back to 2 channel.
The only possibility of full mislabeling is if the receiver states as having Dolby Headphone, and there not being any form of surround emulation when wearing headphones. Again: Pro Logic is simply not a thing for headphones. Stuff like the Mixamp turns Pro Logic into Dolby Headphone, and that's the only possible way to get it to your ears without it being plain stereo with no surround emulation.
edit: Let me clarify... Pro Logic on headphones isn't possible on typical headphones. Unless you have a multiple driver headphone like the Logitech G35/Tritton AX pro which are basically a surround sound setup directly on your head...and not very good ones.
The end result of Pro Logic is multiple channel audio. It's the same result as Dolby Digital. Sure, Pro Logic originated from a 2 channel source, but it ends up as multi-channel.
You can't have Dolby Digital on your headphones without processing back down to two channel. Same goes for Pro Logic. Dolby Headphone is one such processing.
That is why I question what you're saying, as you can't have Pro Logic go to the headphones without DH, therefore making your whole argument about the Denon receivers illogical.

I just recheck Dolby's website, "Dolby Headphone" is based on Dolby Pro logic, and it's based on a 2-channel feed (2 "special" Dolby audio tracks).

It's designed to read a Dolby 2-channel audio feed and can up process it to a "simulated" or "realistic" 7.1 headphone surround sound.

I'm sure the 2 front audio channels on a DVD (or Blu-ray?) movie contain extra info for Dolby Pro logic to "simulate" a 7.1 surround sound for headphones.

But "Dolby Headphone" is only dealing with whatever audio they can fit into the two (front?) audio tracks.

So when someone puts their movie disk (DVD/Blu-ray) in to their player and plugs their headphone into a "Dolby Headphone" receiver, there only getting whatever Dolby Audio is in the two "front" tracks.

Not the whole 6 to 8 channel/tracks (Dolby Digital 5.1 or Dolby TrueHD 7.1) audio they get when they play the same disk thru their 5.1 or 7.1 speakers.

 

Dolby Virtual Headphone is headphone surround sound audio from all 6 to 8 channels, so all 6 or 8 channels are then converted (special mixing) into 2-channel audio to create "Dolby Virtual Headphone".

 

I've checked Dolby's website, they are very careful about which word they use the describe "Dolby Headphone". Dolby only uses word to describe Dolby Headphone as using 2-channels, "simulated" and "realistic" is using word trickery.

 

The Astro Mix-amp. Pro is listed as Dolby Digital 7.1, so it does use more then 2 audio channels to process into a Headphone surround sound.

post #6084 of 37369
Thread Starter 
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The Mixamp 5.8, old Mixamp, AX720, DSS, all have Dolby Headphone, and all sound the exact same, even when they are marketed as only 5.1, or 7.1 now, etc.

You can't get ANY more than Dolby Digital 5.1 from an optical source, which is the only digital surround source that these devices can take.
Quote:
But "Dolby Headphone" is only dealing with whatever audio they can fit into the two (front?) audio tracks.

So when someone puts their movie disk (DVD/Blu-ray) in to their player and plugs their headphone into a "Dolby Headphone" receiver, there only getting whatever Dolby Audio is in the two "front" tracks.

Not the whole 6 to 8 channel/tracks (Dolby Digital 5.1 or Dolby TrueHD 7.1) audio they get when they play the same disk thru their 5.1 or 7.1 speakers.

This is absolutely not true. Please link to this statement.

The tech used converts all audio from the multiple speakers (5.1), and compresses them into two channels. ALL audio, not just the two front tracks. I dunno where the hell people are coming up with these things.
Edited by Mad Lust Envy - 7/1/12 at 8:49pm
post #6085 of 37369

Technically it might be using 8 channels, but the last two aren't actually transmitted over optical.  I think the receiver makes them by mixing other channels.  

post #6086 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The Mixamp 5.8, old Mixamp, AX720, DSS, all have Dolby Headphone, and all sound the exact same, even when they are marketed as only 5.1, or 7.1 now, etc.
You can't get ANY more than Dolby Digital 5.1 from a optical source, which is the only digital surround source that these devices can take. So Dolby is flat out lying when they state more than 5 channels or 7.1 from an optical/digital coaxial source. It's a marketing gimmick, that they can get away with because the processing doesn't sound like 5 individual speakers, but more of a full 360 degree sound field.
Quote:
But "Dolby Headphone" is only dealing with whatever audio they can fit into the two (front?) audio tracks.
So when someone puts their movie disk (DVD/Blu-ray) in to their player and plugs their headphone into a "Dolby Headphone" receiver, there only getting whatever Dolby Audio is in the two "front" tracks.
Not the whole 6 to 8 channel/tracks (Dolby Digital 5.1 or Dolby TrueHD 7.1) audio they get when they play the same disk thru their 5.1 or 7.1 speakers.
This is absolutely not true. Please link to this statement, because that is utter BS if I've ever heard any.
The tech used converts all audio from the multiple speakers (5.1), and compresses them into two channels. ALL audio, not just the two front tracks. I dunno where the hell people are coming up with these things.

Dolby Headphone Technical Features

 

Compatible with native 5.1-channel content

Transforms two-channel (stereo) content into surround sound when combined with Dolby Pro Logic® II

Delivers 7.1-channel surround experience from content preprocessed with Dolby Pro Logic IIz

 

 

In the above statement from Dolby, it never states it's using 6-channels (like Dolby Digital 5.1), it just say "compatible" with 5.1, then it goes on talking about transforming two-channel (stereo) using Pro logic, delivering 7.1 surround "experience" from pre-processed Pro logic, which was from a two-channel (stereo) source. So the first line sounds like some sort of "5.1 surround sound" , but the next two line explain it as Pro Logic transformed from a 2-channel (stereo).

 Read all the descriptions on Dolby Headphone using Dolby Pro Logic, all they talk about is the ways Dolby Pro logic enhances special 2-channel audio for Headphones, nothing out there says anything about Dolby Pro Logic truely processing from 6 or 8 channels into Headphone surround sound. Find the website that say I'm wrong and post the link, please.


Edited by PurpleAngel - 7/1/12 at 9:24pm
post #6087 of 37369

Here is the link to Dolby's website where they expain "Dolby Headphone".

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/home-theater/dolby-headphone.html

post #6088 of 37369

I thought the original pro logic had to do with speakers and not headphones....
 

From what I understand, DH is 5.1 mixed back down into stereo with HRTFs to simulate hearing a 5.1/7.1 system.  Pro Logic is either 2 channel signal processed to simulate dolby headphone (sound like it's a 5.1 system), or it actually upconverts the 2 channels into 5.1 channels to be used with a device that's looking for multi-channel audio to decode. 

post #6089 of 37369
Thread Starter 
edit: Sorry for the million edits. Trying to clean the post up to make more sense...




Sigh... I already mentioned that...
Quote:
Transforms two-channel (stereo) content into surround sound when combined with Dolby Pro Logic® II

This is OBVIOUS. Pro Logic is the process of converting a stereo signal with Pro Logic to a virtualized surround sound to all speakers. This is NOT a headphone tech.

This also has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Dolby Headphone, just as Dolby Digital doesn't have anything to do with it at it's core.

DD and DPII (no way related to headphone tech) is added to Dolby Headphone which takes these two signals and converts them for headphone use. That is ALL.

You're causing unnecessary confusion, Purpleangel. The Denon receiver works the same as these specialized amps.

Dolby Headphone (regardless of device used) is a processing that takes said two and virtualizes them for headphone use. Get it?

He's making it sound like Pro Logic is a substitute to Dolby Headphone which is just wrong in every way. Dolby Headphone either decodes Dolby Digital OR Pro Logic II for virtual surround. That is all. Without one of these two, Dolby Headphone won't work (which is why Blu-Rays encoded with DTS will never get proper surround with things like the Mixamp).

The only time anyone will use Pro Logic II for Dolby Headphone to decode, is when:

-when the source is outputting Dolby Digital but is hooked up to a Dolby Headphone device (i.e. Mixamp) via non-digital connections (like RCA) and not a digital one (like optical or digital coaxial) and whatever device in use is outputting Dolby Digital. That DD signal will downconvert automatically to a Pro Logic II before it arrives to the DH device.

-when you specifically tell your source to output Dolby Pro Logic II instead of Dolby Digital. This can be done on either the hardware level or software. Examples: Uncharted 2 on the PS3 has sound settings which let you choose Dolby Digital 5.1 or Pro Logic II. Example 2: DVD Player with sound settings that allow you to choose Pro Logic II.

Just as standard Dolby Digital is hidden inside a Dolby True HD track, so is Pro Logic II hidden inside a Dolby Digital track. They are there for when a device can't take the higher end option. For example: Watching a Blu-Ray with Dolby True HD (rare nowadays) through an optical connection will automatically fall back to Dolby Digital, since Dolby True HD doesn't work via optical. Dolby Digital won't work through RCA, so it falls back to Pro Logic II.

In any case, Pro Logic alone will NOT work through a headphone jack. Zilch, zip, nada.
Edited by Mad Lust Envy - 7/1/12 at 10:34pm
post #6090 of 37369
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post


....Pro Logic is either 2 channel signal processed to simulate dolby headphone (sound like it's a 5.1 system), or it actually upconverts the 2 channels into 5.1 channels to be used with a device that's looking for multi-channel audio to decode. 

 

So it sounds like it's the latter?  DH is looking for 5.1 channels, and if it can't get it from Dolby Digital 5.1 it will get it from Dolby Pro Logic II.  So all Dolby Headphone devices must have Pro Logic, but not vice a versa...?....

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