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Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide: (3/18/2016: MrSpeakers Ether C 1.1 Added) - Page 229

post #3421 of 37354
Thread Starter 
The Creative Recon 3D which is using THX TruStudio Pro Surround. CMSS 3D is a PC only DSP.
Edited by Mad Lust Envy - 1/22/12 at 3:46am
post #3422 of 37354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post

The Creative Recon 3D which is using THX TruStudio Pro Surround. CMSS 3D is a PC only DSP.


CMSS3d is the equivalent of stabbing your eardrums with an ice pick.  It's beyond bad, and I found that no matter how many exotic settings changes I made using the creative forums I could never get anything even remotely like positional audio. 

post #3423 of 37354
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulgarDisplay View Post

I've been gaming in stereo ever since I ditched my razer barracuda for AD700's almost 3 years ago.  I have never experienced a hard pan in any game in 3 years time.  People are either using horrible headphones, or inferior DAC/soundcards.  

 

I play PC games and my HRT Music Streamer II+ > FiiO e9 > Q701's will destroy any dolby headphone setup in terms of audio quality and positioning.  I've use DH and CMSS3d and all they do is destroy the quality of your sound.  Sure it's great to get a sense of footsteps behind you, but that won't help you when you can't hear them because the sound is so bad.  

 

If you're serious about audio quality on PC games you have to get your DAC out of the PC case.  It's too noisy in there with all the electricity moving around.  

 

Going from the AD700 to the Q701's has been another revelation for me.  I'm hearing sounds in games I've played for years that I never heard until now, and on top of that I can actually hear up and down much better now.  


That's a bold statement. Us here are using DSP's like Dolby headphone first and foremost because it opens up the soundstage into a virtual landscape. Stereo does NOt do that whatsoever. You may get better awareness with a really large innate soundstage like the AD700 or K701's, but it still doesn't fully envelope the aural senses the way a DSP does.

There is absolutely NO comparison. Just because you're used to Stereo does not make it in any way superior to a DSP's method of recreating a full surround setup.

Destroy audio quality? It does no such thing. It does make it sound processed in comparison, but it's a tradeoff that most of us are more than happy with, considering the benefits.

We're not going for PURE SQ. We're going for a more immersive experience that as a bonus adds a lot towards positional cues. Being able to picture in your head exactly where they are coming from based off sound is an easier process for me than the ridiculously limited soundscape that stereo brings to gaming. Stereo gives an edge in left to right sounds, but not so much actual depth of sound. It sounds borderline FAKE in comparison, because everything sounds linear, whereas a DSP like DH will be like placing you in the middle of an actual stage.

But in the end, it's all based off preferences. Both pale in comparison to binaural, which is stereo with the sounds coming in based off how they were recorded around a specialized microphone.

Vulgar, this thread was made with DSPs in mind. You can go bash DSPs elsewhere.

I gamed in stereo for years. Once I heard DH... I could NEVER, EVER go back to stereo. It's the equivalent of me going completely deaf in one ear. Keep in mind, this is with console gaming. DH may very well be inferior on PC, due to incompatibility with certain games and improper settings. I don't have to deal with all that. Just plug and play.

Again DH is picky, and some games do use it well (actually lots of games don't), but certain games REALLY shine with DH. One I can think of is Lost Planet 2. Just try the demo.
Edited by Mad Lust Envy - 1/22/12 at 4:02am
post #3424 of 37354
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulgarDisplay View Post

I've been gaming in stereo ever since I ditched my razer barracuda for AD700's almost 3 years ago.  I have never experienced a hard pan in any game in 3 years time.  People are either using horrible headphones, or inferior DAC/soundcards.  

I play PC games and my HRT Music Streamer II+ > FiiO e9 > Q701's will destroy any dolby headphone setup in terms of audio quality and positioning.  I've use DH and CMSS3d and all they do is destroy the quality of your sound.  Sure it's great to get a sense of footsteps behind you, but that won't help you when you can't hear them because the sound is so bad.  

If you're serious about audio quality on PC games you have to get your DAC out of the PC case.  It's too noisy in there with all the electricity moving around.  

Going from the AD700 to the Q701's has been another revelation for me.  I'm hearing sounds in games I've played for years that I never heard until now, and on top of that I can actually hear up and down much better now.  

Nice massive bold statement of needless generalization. Each to their own, if you think sound cards cannot be good and DSP will ruin everything, that is just you.

I'll admit that I do not use any DSP or DH setups as much as they "expand" the soundstage, the rare accuracy that my AD1000PRM gives me out weights the immersion in games that matter. For immersion I just put on my STAX now. Do I now need to go out to bash others that uses DSPs and different headphones than myself? It's just a vulgar display of manners.
Edited by Ra97oR - 1/22/12 at 4:31am
post #3425 of 37354
Thread Starter 
OMG STAX. I can imagine playing in DH with the SR-007 MK 2 Omega II... even the name sounds godly. biggrin.gif

But I'd buy the Beyer Headzone Game or Smyth Realizer first. wink.gif
Edited by Mad Lust Envy - 1/22/12 at 4:38am
post #3426 of 37354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post

OMG STAX. I can imagine playing in DH with the SR-007 MK 2 Omega II... even the name sounds godly. biggrin.gif
But I'd buy the Beyer Headzone Game or Smyth Realizer first. wink.gif

I remember trying the Smyth Realizer last meet in London, it is... strange. It is not bad, but not feeling like listening to headphones while listening to headphones kinda defeats the point.
post #3427 of 37354
Thread Starter 
What do you mean? Headphones don't sound like headphones?

edit: wait, it utilizes head tracking like the Headzone Pro... nah, I don't want that. I just want something that recreated a full surround sound in your headphones for gaming. That head tracking is useless for that purpose, as your head should generally always be pointing towards the screen anyways... you ARE gaming. rolleyes.gif

edit 2: Damn, I really want the Headzone (non-tracking), It decodes DTS... something the Mixamp doesn't do... ARGH... XD

edit 3: In all honesty, I WOULD buy the Headzone... I would. I mean, look at this guy!

280

It's so awesome, he fell asleep to the sounds of explosions!

If by some miracle I clear my debt, I WILL buy the Headzone, mark my words.

It's going for $1100 for the base alone on Amazon. Damn I wish I had a G for this. I wish they had a loaner program or something. I would do almost ANYTHING to get my hands on one.

edit 4: OMG, does anyone speak German, to translate what he says about the Headzone vs Mixamp 5.8 about 4 minutes in?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DISJzrAreQE

edit 5: From some random forum:
Quote:
Well i recently got the beyerdynamic headzone so i will sell my a40 mixamp but to be honest the difference between the two is very slightly noticeable. Another thing is that the headzone adds a little more sound stage.

Hmm... only a slight difference... still, I WANT it!

edit 6:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/565068/ic-beyerdynamic-headzone-home-ht-5-1-surround-with-head-tracking
Quote:
Ah! This is the million dollar question and a very legitimate one if you consider buying an almost 2'000$ emulation system.



IF I had to make an analogy I would say comparing the headzone to Dolby headphones is like comparing Microsoft paint to Adobe photoshop, they are both software and they are both doing the same thing, image editing but the difference is in how the they do it and the quality they offer.



I'm mostly a gamer and a cinephile so my quest for the best multi-channel emulation over headphones has been a long one, I started with the obvious choice of using Dolby headphones but I never was very satisfied with them, so I moved on to headphones specifically made for multi-channel, there's a big market for gaming headphones and I can say I have owned most of them (Tritton, Turtle Beach, Astro), some are doing multi-channel emulation like the Astro with the mix amp and other are trying to implement multiple drivers in the headphones themselves, the problem was that the sound/build quality of the headphones was quite bad and even if some were offering an upgrade from Dolby headphones, I still wasn't very satisfied with the multi-channel effect.



This is when I decided to invest in the headzone and all I can say is I was blown away, it's a complete different experience and it's hard to put into words but I will try to describe as accurately as I can. The sound simply expends beyond the headphones, at some points and it still happens to me I have to remove the headphones to make sure my speakers are actually off, the multi-channel emulation is simply the best I ever heard (or was until I purchased the smyth realiser A8, but this is a different story), things that are vastly improved compared to Dolby headphones are the accuracy of surround effect, the speaker placement or one could say the positioning of speakers in the virtual room, sound dynamic and the effect of spazialisation.



On top the headzone let's you 'play' with the virtual room you're trying to recreate so you can increase/decrease the room size and you can also play on the room acoustics to make it sound bright or dark, the headtracker is a nice addition but only if you're sitting off center when watching a movie or playing game, I'm pretty much sitting dead center In front on my screen so the little head movement I make don't have much impact. Another nice addition is that you're able to use it with any headphones and while the DT-880 are very nice headphones (and by far the most comfortable I owned) I used it with LCD-2 and Denon D7000 and boy this is FUN, it's like sitting in the theater but with headphones on/



Last but not least, it's a pretty nice amp and the sound emulation can be bypassed all together so it can be used as a stereo amp too.



I'm happy to take any question or offers in PM, this has to go since I received my Realiser A8.



Cheers


I so need this... badly. So much, that it will be the very next major audio purchase I make. No more beating around the bush. I got my two main headphones, my amp/dac setups... now for what will really make games and movies stand out. smily_headphones1.gif
Edited by Mad Lust Envy - 1/22/12 at 5:37am
post #3428 of 37354


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post


That's a bold statement. Us here are using DSP's like Dolby headphone first and foremost because it opens up the soundstage into a virtual landscape. Stereo does NOt do that whatsoever. You may get better awareness with a really large innate soundstage like the AD700 or K701's, but it still doesn't fully envelope the aural senses the way a DSP does.
There is absolutely NO comparison. Just because you're used to Stereo does not make it in any way superior to a DSP's method of recreating a full surround setup.
Destroy audio quality? It does no such thing. It does make it sound processed in comparison, but it's a tradeoff that most of us are more than happy with, considering the benefits.
We're not going for PURE SQ. We're going for a more immersive experience that as a bonus adds a lot towards positional cues. Being able to picture in your head exactly where they are coming from based off sound is an easier process for me than the ridiculously limited soundscape that stereo brings to gaming. Stereo gives an edge in left to right sounds, but not so much actual depth of sound. It sounds borderline FAKE in comparison, because everything sounds linear, whereas a DSP like DH will be like placing you in the middle of an actual stage.
But in the end, it's all based off preferences. Both pale in comparison to binaural, which is stereo with the sounds coming in based off how they were recorded around a specialized microphone.
Vulgar, this thread was made with DSPs in mind. You can go bash DSPs elsewhere.
I gamed in stereo for years. Once I heard DH... I could NEVER, EVER go back to stereo. It's the equivalent of me going completely deaf in one ear. Keep in mind, this is with console gaming. DH may very well be inferior on PC, due to incompatibility with certain games and improper settings. I don't have to deal with all that. Just plug and play.
Again DH is picky, and some games do use it well (actually lots of games don't), but certain games REALLY shine with DH. One I can think of is Lost Planet 2. Just try the demo.


Yes, but that heavily compressed sound that cmss3d gives in my opinion sounds even more "fake". There are quite a few games that have their own headphone mode that works pretty well. Not every game has that hard clipping from right to left. Even in the games that do to me that muffled sound kills the immersion probably more so. I went and tried a few games last night and for me Stalker Clear Sky was the only one that seemed to benefit from cmss-3d. I think that after using normal stereo for so long that you get used to how a game should sound. When you enable cmss-3d and all of a sudden all of the music, voices, etc sound entirely different you really notice it. That muffled sound is something thats there in every bit of the game, that clipping in stereo isn't as consistent of an issue in single player games for me. Its a compromise. 

 

I really want to give Dolby HP a shot. I may sell my titanium hd and pick up an STX one of these days. 

 

There are a lot of people that call this the gaming thread. I just saw that in a headphone recommendation thread, anyways. Where better to have a discussion on the the pros and cons of these DSPs?

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by VulgarDisplay View Post

I've been gaming in stereo ever since I ditched my razer barracuda for AD700's almost 3 years ago.  I have never experienced a hard pan in any game in 3 years time.  People are either using horrible headphones, or inferior DAC/soundcards.  

 

 


I game in stereo too and have been doing so for quite a while now. I do have to say that I notice that hard pan in a few games. Skyrim is a good example. If you're looking at someone dead on in the conversation menu you hear sound in both ears. If you then turn your head to the right all of a sudden you'll hear sound out of just the left speaker with almost no transition. I'll also admit that there are times where I can hear an enemy buy can't tell where they are coming from in that game. I also noticed this sort of thing in stalker clear sky but unlike Skyrim I found cmss-3d to sound good. I think that there is a misconception here that all games are like that with the hard pans in stereo which just isn't the case. 


Edited by BababooeyHTJ - 1/22/12 at 6:51am
post #3429 of 37354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra97oR View Post


Nice massive bold statement of needless generalization. Each to their own, if you think sound cards cannot be good and DSP will ruin everything, that is just you.
I'll admit that I do not use any DSP or DH setups as much as they "expand" the soundstage, the rare accuracy that my AD1000PRM gives me out weights the immersion in games that matter. For immersion I just put on my STAX now. Do I now need to go out to bash others that uses DSPs and different headphones than myself? It's just a vulgar display of manners.


On a forum that is all opinions and no facts you need to get a little bit used to the fact that people aren't going to agree with you at all times.  

post #3430 of 37354
Thread Starter 
Ok guys I was wrong. The DT990/600 does NOT need an amp attached to get loud volumes when the Mixamp fully powers game audio. I was just playingg BLOPS on the PS3 and it was super loud.

That being said, the sound did crackle a few times, letting me know it would love an amp attached. Remember, loud =/= well driven.

But still to those who can't afford an amp immediately, you can definitely get by with just the Mixamp as long as no chat is mixed in.

I guess the demo I tested last time just had really low volume...
post #3431 of 37354

 "People are either using horrible headphones, or inferior DAC/soundcards."

 

 

 

Yes, anyone that doesn't like playing in stereo must have horrible gear. How much money does someone have to spend on equipment before their opinion is valid? 


Edited by Rebel975 - 1/22/12 at 12:22pm
post #3432 of 37354

Vulgar, your opinion is appreciated.

 

However, the discussion here isn't stereo vs virtual surround, and is distracting from people who are interested in virtual surround and looking for suggestions on gear.

 

That said, why oh why does the Headzone Game have to be so expensive? :(

post #3433 of 37354

Armored Core V is coming out soon, so I want some voice chat action + virtual surround on the PS3, so now I have a decision to make: Buy a cheap USB sound card as an input for chat for use with my DSS or I could get that Recon 3D thing that does both.  

 

Has anyone tried a Recon 3D?  

post #3434 of 37354

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulgarDisplay View Post

If you're serious about audio quality on PC games you have to get your DAC out of the PC case.  It's too noisy in there with all the electricity moving around.

 

Another one of those posts...I won't say you're wrong without having tried a good quality external DAC, but I will say that if I am to get a DAC, it better support S/PDIF input or I'm not buying. The X-Fi card stays in my PC as a DSP, and I'm not doing without the in-game EAX processing support as a minimum, because I still play my fair share of older titles with hardware-accelerated audio that will not sound as the developers intended in software audio mode.

 

Oh, and for me, stereo and CMSS-3D Headphone aren't even close. For instance, Unreal Tournament 1999 with the Old Unreal patch that adds OpenAL support. Stereo sounds clear, but the sounds are all jammed directly to the left and right of my ears, all congested and hard to pick out where they're coming from. CMSS-3D Headphone makes it all binaural, spaces them out, allows me to tell whether they're front or back and up or down in addition to left or right...there is a processed quality to the audio, obviously, but nothing that deeply offends my ears. Dolby Headphone is distinctively less binaural and more virtual 5.1, but still a hell of a lot better in un-congesting those sounds and giving them distinct directionality than plain stereo.

 

Fortunately, CMSS-3D Headphone can be carried over S/PDIF too, so I can still use an external DAC that way...but it's said that any DAC that is capable of surpassing even the highest-end internal sound cards runs $300 minimum, more often $500 or even $1,000. That's money I could easily put toward better Stax equipment, which I think would provide far more of an audible increase in sound quality than a DAC several times my X-Fi Titanium HD's price.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post
OMG STAX. I can imagine playing in DH with the SR-007 MK 2 Omega II... even the name sounds godly. biggrin.gif
But I'd buy the Beyer Headzone Game or Smyth Realizer first. wink.gif


If you lived just a bit closer to my part of northwest Georgia, I'd let you audition my Stax Lambda systems just to hear your thoughts. Flagship SR-007 or SR-009 they aren't, but they're also not nearly as wallet-wringing, either. I think they're pretty much AD700 on steroids already...and people describe the K701/K702/Q701 in much the same way, but I've never heard anyone compare a Lambda series headphone against one of those around here. I just wonder if they're good enough for you to deem the new competitive headphone champion or not.

 

You might prefer the darker SR-007 sound signature, though.


Edited by NamelessPFG - 1/22/12 at 7:17pm
post #3435 of 37354
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riku540 View Post

Vulgar, your opinion is appreciated.

 

However, the discussion here isn't stereo vs virtual surround, and is distracting from people who are interested in virtual surround and looking for suggestions on gear.

 

That said, why oh why does the Headzone Game have to be so expensive? :(


You don't need the Headzone Game, just the Headzone base. Game just adds the MMX300. Since most of us don't need the headset, we can save a few hundred by just getting the base. wink.gif

Of course, I don't think any of us are fanatic enough to buy a gaming amp for over $1000...though I will say I am.
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