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Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide: (3/18/2016: MrSpeakers Ether C 1.1 Added) - Page 1330

post #19936 of 37450
Quote:
Originally Posted by conquerator2 View Post


Does the number of channels matter when you select DH?
I was under the impression it didn't (on PC, in the U3 software)

Not all games output 7.1, DH can turn 7.1 and 5.1 into virtual 7.1 and 5.1 respectively , My guess is that if you want to get virtual 7.1 regardless of what the game outputs, then you have to have the option to turn Pro Logic IIx on, which turns 5.1 into 7.1 and then feeds it into DH.'

 

I have had a corsair vengeance 1500, and the driver software on it was as i described above, On U3 only when you set the input to 2.0 does the pro logic IIx appear as an option.

 

 

I want someone who has proper knowledge of this to explain it to us...


Edited by Sam21 - 1/11/14 at 3:27pm
post #19937 of 37450

Pro Logic IIx sole purpose in life is to take a 2ch source and turn it into virtual surround.

 

Dolby Headphone on the other hand needs a minimum 5.1 Dolby Digital source to create surround.

 

If you have a 2ch source, the best you can have for surround is PL IIx.

 

Dolby Headphone > Pro Logic IIx

post #19938 of 37450
Quote:
Originally Posted by rc10mike View Post
 

Pro Logic IIx sole purpose in life is to take a 2ch source and turn it into virtual surround.

 

Dolby Headphone on the other hand needs a minimum 5.1 Dolby Digital source to create surround.

 

If you have a 2ch source, the best you can have for surround is PL IIx.

 

Dolby Headphone > Pro Logic IIx

 

Actually, that's not quite correct.

 

Pro logic's sole purpose is to expand a 2 channel signal into a multi-channel signal.  Pro Logic by itself has nothing to do with virtual surround sound (since virtual surround is 2 channels).

 

It's only when you combine Pro Logic's expanded multi-channel signal WITH Dolby Heapdhone that you get virtual surround.  Dolby Headphone needs a multi-channel source, so Pro Logic expands a 2 channel source into multi-channel so Dolby Headphone has something to work with.


Edited by chicolom - 1/11/14 at 9:04pm
post #19939 of 37450
Thread Starter 
You're not supposed to even bother with the 7.1 virtual speaker shift crap.

If you have the U3:

Configure speakers to 7.1 in the sound device option (speaker icon on taskbar), in the u3 software, make sure you check dolby headphone and make sure its dh2. Thats all you need to do for DH. Setting to outout DH to another device however means messing with the digital output box.
post #19940 of 37450
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post
 

 

Don't worry about the frequency response specs.

 

The "aux input" on the DSS is not for mics, it's for analog input signals (like an mp3 player).  AFAIK the only way to use a mic with the DSS is through the USB input, but I don't know how that works exactly as your headset has to be a USB headset similar to the Turtle Beach ones.

 

The reason I specifically recommended the DSS version 1, is because the DSS 1 uses Dolby Headphone which is a proven surround sound DSP.  The DSS 2 dropped Dolby Headphone support and went with a less popular DSP called "Cirrus Logic" surround.  I haven't heard it, but from I reports I've read on it Dolby Headphone from the version1 is the better DSP.

 

 

It's a PC350, which is a closed PC360, which is like a Sennheiser HD5x5.  The closed sennheisers (like PC350) have a smaller muddier soundstage than they're open counterparts. 

 

I think by design most boom mics should pick up less up noise desktop mics.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/534479/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-updated-1-9-2014-shure-srh1840-added/19080#post_10075559


Thanks,

 

just for my layman knowledge, what would the difference in terms of surround, soundstage and pinpointing be between these 2 configs:

 

1.- Just the Senn HD 598 from a powered source (for example, I guess a PC would do)

 

2.- The Senn HD 598 + DSS1 from the PS4, assuming the DSS1 performs as an amplifier and as a DH 7.1 surround (did I well understand?)

 

I mean, would the Senn by itself have a decent "surround"? If so, what does the 7.1 DSS1 add? Does it turn 2 channels into 7 virtual ones (+subwoofer), then improving surround in what what terms? Or what is the "gain" I will have thanks to the DSS1?

 

And another doubt: do you think moving from a Senn RS 160 to a Senn HD 598(+DSS1) is quality worth it?

 

Thks

post #19941 of 37450
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post
 

 

Actually, that's not quite correct.

 

Pro logic's sole purpose is to expand a 2 channel signal into a multi-channel signal.  Pro Logic by itself has nothing to do with virtual surround sound (since virtual surround is 2 channels).

 

It's only when you combine Pro Logic's expanded multi-channel signal WITH Dolby Heapdhone that you get virtual surround.  Dolby Headphone needs a multi-channel source, so Pro Logic expands a 2 channel source into multi-channel so Dolby Headphone has something to work with.


It is actually correct. Pro Logic takes two channels and makes surround. Since true surround is made from discrete channels, Pro Logic is essentially making virtual surround, or should I say "simulated surround".


Edited by rc10mike - 1/11/14 at 10:03pm
post #19942 of 37450
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecjcc View Post
 


Thanks,

 

just for my layman knowledge, what would the difference in terms of surround, soundstage and pinpointing be between these 2 configs:

 

1.- Just the Senn HD 598 from a powered source (for example, I guess a PC would do)

 

2.- The Senn HD 598 + DSS1 from the PS4, assuming the DSS1 performs as an amplifier and as a DH 7.1 surround (did I well understand?)

 

I mean, would the Senn by itself have a decent "surround"? If so, what does the 7.1 DSS1 add? Does it turn 2 channels into 7 virtual ones (+subwoofer), then improving surround in what what terms? Or what is the "gain" I will have thanks to the DSS1?

 

And another doubt: do you think moving from a Senn RS 160 to a Senn HD 598(+DSS1) is quality worth it?

 

Thks


With the DDS1, you will have have simulated 5.1 surround (not 7.1) sound with your 598s. Without the DSS1, you will only have stereo sound. You will not have 7.1 because an optical connection is only capable of 5.1.


Edited by rc10mike - 1/11/14 at 10:09pm
post #19943 of 37450
Quote:
Originally Posted by rc10mike View Post
 


It is actually correct. Pro Logic takes two channels and makes surround. Since true surround is made from discrete channels, Pro Logic is essentially making virtual surround.

 

But Pro Logic DOES produce discrete channels.  So it is real multi-channel surround sound.  It might not be accurate positional-wise, but it is multi-channel (discrete) surround.  There's nothing virtual about that.

 

Actual virtual surround sound would be 2 channels + HTRFs (meaning it's simulating multi-channel surround from multiple speakers).


Edited by chicolom - 1/11/14 at 10:11pm
post #19944 of 37450
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecjcc View Post
 


Thanks,

 

just for my layman knowledge, what would the difference in terms of surround, soundstage and pinpointing be between these 2 configs:

 

1.- Just the Senn HD 598 from a powered source (for example, I guess a PC would do)

 

2.- The Senn HD 598 + DSS1 from the PS4, assuming the DSS1 performs as an amplifier and as a DH 7.1 surround (did I well understand?)

 

I mean, would the Senn by itself have a decent "surround"? If so, what does the 7.1 DSS1 add? Does it turn 2 channels into 7 virtual ones (+subwoofer), then improving surround in what what terms? Or what is the "gain" I will have thanks to the DSS1?

 

And another doubt: do you think moving from a Senn RS 160 to a Senn HD 598(+DSS1) is quality worth it?

 

Thks

 

 

The HD598 doesn't have any "surround" by itself, it just has a good soundstage - which will let it take advantage of virtual surround sound.

 

It sounds like you're a little confused about what virtual surround sound is and how it works, so I'd recommend reading this:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/646786/evshrugs-if-i-knew-then-what-i-know-now-discussion-journal#post_9067400

 

I don't know much about the RS 160 unfortunately.


Edited by chicolom - 1/11/14 at 11:02pm
post #19945 of 37450
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post
 

 

But Pro Logic DOES produce discrete channels.  So it is real multi-channel surround sound.  It might not be accurate positional-wise, but it is multi-channel (discrete) surround.  There's nothing virtual about that.

 

Actual virtual surround sound would be 2 channels + HTRFs (meaning it's simulating multi-channel surround from multiple speakers).


My point is Pro Logic processed surround made from a 2ch source will not be as good as a true 5.1 source being processed into Dolby Headphone. Think of it like trying to turn a 96kb MP3 into a 320kb MP3. You can do it, but the end result is still a 96kb MP3.

post #19946 of 37450

Pro logic II turns 2 discreet channels into 5.1 channels.

Pro logic IIturns 2.0 and 5.1 discreet channels into 7.1 channels.

 

 

and then we have Pro Logic IIz

 

To Mad Lust Envy : 

 

If we set the input to 7.1, and turn DH on, we always get virtual 7.1, no matter  what game we play ? [Games could output 7.1 or 5.1 channels]

post #19947 of 37450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam21 View Post
 

Pro logic II turns 2 discreet channels into 5.1 channels.

Pro logic IIturns 2.0 and 5.1 discreet channels into 7.1 channels.

 

 

and then we have Pro Logic IIz

 

To Mad Lust Envy : 

 

If we set the input to 7.1, and turn DH on, we always get virtual 7.1, no matter  what game we play ? [Games could output 7.1 or 5.1 channels]

Remember there is no free lunch. Pro Logic doesnt give you something that wasnt there in the source. If you want the best perfromance with Dolby Headphone, you need to have Dolby Digital 5.1 as the source, NOT pre-processed 2ch Pro Logic.

post #19948 of 37450
Quote:
Originally Posted by rc10mike View Post
 

Remember there is no free lunch. Pro Logic doesnt give you something that wasnt there in the source. If you want the best perfromance with Dolby Headphone, you need to have Dolby Digital 5.1 as the source, NOT pre-processed 2ch Pro Logic.

 

You mean a source that outputs 5.1 discreet channels? 

post #19949 of 37450

No one should be using Pro Logic for any modern PC or console game.

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

What's the difference between Pro Logic II and Dolby Headphone?/What is Pro Logic II?

  •  

Pro logic is mainly good for older consoles and devices that are limited to 2 channel output (such as the Wii).  In those cases, where the device is limited to 2 channel output, Pro Logic II is the next best alternative to having true multi channel audio.   

 

Basically, there's two kinds of Pro Logic:  One is where you take a plain 2 channel signal and expand it to 5.1.  This is what will happen if you try and use Pro Logic with any modern console, as they only have plain stereo tracks and aren't encoded for Pro Logic II (because they don't need to be, as they have actual 5.1 tracks and output).

 

The other kind of Pro logic is where you actually encode your stereo track for Pro Logic II beforehand, then later decode it/expand it to multi-channel surround.  From Dolby: "Stereo soundtracks, while maintaining compatibility with standard stereo playback, can also be encoded to deliver specific surround and localization effects when played through a Dolby Pro Logic II decoder."  This is what devices like the Wii do.  When you encode a stereo track for Pro Logic, it adds certain spacial cues to the stereo signal that, when expanded later, do a more convincing job of emulating 5.1 surround than if you had just used a regular stereo signal as the source for that expansion.  

 

Basically consoles like the Wii are aware of their limitation of only being able to output 2 channels, so as a partial workaround they choose to encode their stereo tracks with the Pro Logic II spatial cues.  It's obviously not as good as having true 5.1 channels, but it at least lets them upscale their 2 channel content to a 5.1 channel ouput (via any Pro Logic II decoding device such as a Home Theater AVR - or a mixamp) in a more convincing matter than if they had just used a plain stereo signal. 

 So when you plug a 2 channel console like the Wii into a Mixamp, what happens is the Wii outputs its Pro Logic II encoded stereo signal to the mixamp, the Mixamp decodes that signal via its Pro Logic II decoder and simultaneously expands the signal to 5.1 (making use of those Pro Logic spatial cues in the process).  Finally the Mixamp takes that freshly upscaled 5.1 channel signal and encodes that into Dolby Headphone (a 2 channel stereo signal for use with your headphones).  On a modern console with Dolby Digital 5.1 output, none of those Pro Logic II steps are needed.  The console simply outputs DD 5.1 directly to the Mixamp, the Mixamp takes those 5 channels and converts them into Dolby Headphone, and you're good to go.

 

Here is a description from Dolby about Pro Logic II as it pertains to gaming.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/gaming/dolby-pro-logic-ii.html 

 

For modern gaming, Pro Logic II is not needed, as games and consoles are no longer limited to 2 channel output (like they were with the Wii, PS2, Gamecube, etc).  The game audio in modern PC and console games already support multi channel 5.1 surround, and the consoles are capable of multi-channel output already (Dolby Digital 5.1, etc).  So there is no need to use Pro Logic, either to embed spatial cues into stereo tracks or even expand those stereo tracks in the first place.  Using Pro Logic would be unnecessary and inferior to using the already-there 5.1 surround sound.  So really the only reason time you should be using Pro Logic II is if your gaming on a PS2, a GCN, or a Wii.  

 

If your using Pro logic with a modern console or PC game, your doing it wrong.

 

 

post #19950 of 37450

Speaking of PLII, I was playing Xenogears on the PS3 the other day. Now, some may remember that Xenogears has an option of widening its stereo output like the way PLII does, a faux 5.1.

 

For the heck of it, I did set the DSS into PLII mode and enabled the stereo wide option in the game and guess what... it sounded, surprisingly good. The midi soundtracks sounded more like an ochestra than midi, which is close in line to to the Xenogears Ochestra OST album. Obviously, it isn't suppose to sound like that and it isn't a correct way of listening to a game.

 

But hey, Xenogears... 1998, an RPG... who cares right? 

 

Those who have it on the PS3 (or even still a PS1), try it out. :)

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