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Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide: (3/18/2016: MrSpeakers Ether C 1.1 Added) - Page 1260

post #18886 of 37362
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

I know nothing about Dolby stuff, like at all really.

When a game is labeled to have "Dolby Pro Logic II," what does that mean?

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-pro-logic-ii-details.html
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/home-theater/dolby-pro-logic-II.html

Does that mean a DSP technology is involved?

Dolby pro logic is jsut upmixing of 2 channels to 7.1 channels. Not good for anything

post #18887 of 37362
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsh View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

I know nothing about Dolby stuff, like at all really.


When a game is labeled to have "Dolby Pro Logic II," what does that mean?

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-pro-logic-ii-details.html
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/home-theater/dolby-pro-logic-II.html


Does that mean a DSP technology is involved?
Dolby pro logic is jsut upmixing of 2 channels to 7.1 channels. Not good for anything
Huh, okay. Interesting to note. The specs say 5.1, but it's still up-mixing. Maybe I'll see what it sounds like with headphones. I've been using my TV's on-board speakers pretty much my whole console gaming career. XD
post #18888 of 37362
- deleted -
Edited by miceblue - 12/11/13 at 2:44pm
post #18889 of 37362
- deleted -
Edited by miceblue - 12/11/13 at 2:44pm
post #18890 of 37362
- deleted -
Edited by miceblue - 12/11/13 at 2:45pm
post #18891 of 37362

Lulz, quadriple post

post #18892 of 37362

Who wants a copy of Serious Sam 3: BFE on Steam?

post #18893 of 37362
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsh View Post

Lulz, quadriple post
Holy, wtf just happened? I might need to file a bug report. Firefox keeps deleting my text whenever I hit the reply button and asks me if I'm sure I want to leave the page.
Like so:
post #18894 of 37362
^ that is odd. Not sure why you get that. Have you cleared your cookies and cache?

At the least, you could delete the contents of your extra 3 posts, so it's easier to read the thread.
post #18895 of 37362
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post
I know nothing about Dolby stuff, like at all really.

When a game is labeled to have "Dolby Pro Logic II," what does that mean?

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-pro-logic-ii-details.html
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/home-theater/dolby-pro-logic-II.html

Does that mean a DSP technology is involved?

 

Dolby Pro Logic (II) is a means of encoding/matrixing extra surround channels into a two-channel signal, generally used for devices that can't bitstream Dolby Digital over S/PDIF and only have the two analog channels, mainly 5th-gen consoles, the GCN, the Wii, and even the PS2 (which, unlike the Xbox, only outputs Dolby Digital in pre-rendered cutscenes and doesn't seem to have the performance to encode Dolby Digital in real-time). They use some phase-shifting and other trickery to accomplish this; Wikipedia has the details, if you trust it.

 

The main difference between Dolby Surround/Pro Logic and Dolby Pro Logic II seems to be how the rear channels are handled. Old Pro Logic only has one combined rear channel, but Pro Logic II has separate rear channels and the center channel (derived from information present in both front left and front right channels).

 

Because they're not discrete channels like Dolby Digital or DTS, they are prone to crosstalk, degrading the quality a little, and a Dolby Pro Logic (II) decoder cannot detect such a signal automatically; it has to be manually set, which also means that you have to know whether or not the source is set for Pro Logic (II) output. (Simply put, if a game offers you "Mono", "Stereo" and "Surround" options, the "Surround" option is most likely a Pro Logic-encoded signal.)

 

In other words, yes, there is a DSP involved to some extent due to the way the surround channels are encoded and decoded. You still won't get any extra positional cues without Dolby Headphone mixing the surround channels extracted from the Dolby Pro Logic II signal accordingly, though.

 

My usual Pro Logic test thus far is Metroid Prime. It doesn't take long to get to an area where you can test out the positional cues, and they're surprisingly good.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsh View Post

Dolby pro logic is jsut upmixing of 2 channels to 7.1 channels. Not good for anything

 

It's not a simple "speaker fill" for stereo signals like you're claiming it to be, particularly given my explanation above.


Edited by NamelessPFG - 12/11/13 at 3:08pm
post #18896 of 37362
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsh View Post
 

Dolby pro logic is jsut upmixing of 2 channels to 7.1 channels.

Not good for anything

 

I wouldn't say that. 

 

It is good for older consoles and devices that are limited to 2 channel output (such as the Wii).  In those cases, where the device is limited to 2 channel output, Pro Logic II is the next best alternative to having true multi channel audio.  

 

Basically, there's two kinds of Pro Logic:  One is where you take a plain 2 channel signal and expand it to 5.1.  This is what will happen if you try and use Pro Logic with any modern console, as they only have plain stereo tracks and aren't encoded for Pro Logic II (because they don't need to be, as they have actual 5.1 tracks and output).

 

The other kind of Pro logic is where you actually encode your stereo track for Pro Logic II beforehand, then later decode it/expand it to multi-channel surround.  From Dolby: "Stereo soundtracks, while maintaining compatibility with standard stereo playback, can also be encoded to deliver specific surround and localization effects when played through a Dolby Pro Logic II decoder."  This is what devices like the Wii do.  When you encode a stereo track for Pro Logic, it adds certain spacial cues to the stereo signal that, when expanded later, do a more convincing job of emulating 5.1 surround than if you had just used a regular stereo signal as the source for that expansion.  

 

Basically consoles like the Wii are aware of their limitation of only being able to output 2 channels, so as a partial workaround they choose to encode their stereo tracks with the Pro Logic II spatial cues.  It's obviously not as good as having true 5.1 channels, but it at least lets them upscale their 2 channel content to a 5.1 channel ouput (via any Pro Logic II decoding device such as a Home Theater AVR - or a mixamp) in a more convincing matter than if they had just used a plain stereo signal. 

 

So when you plug a 2 channel console like the Wii into a Mixamp, what happens is the Wii outputs its Pro Logic II encoded stereo signal to the mixamp, the Mixamp decodes that signal via its Pro Logic II decoder and simultaneously expands the signal to 5.1 (making use of those Pro Logic spatial cues in the process).  Finally the Mixamp takes that freshly upscaled 5.1 channel signal and encodes that into Dolby Headphone (a 2 channel stereo signal for use with your headphones).  On a modern console with Dolby Digital 5.1 output, none of those Pro Logic II steps are needed.  The console simply outputs DD 5.1 directly to the Mixamp, the Mixamp takes those 5 channels and converts them into Dolby Headphone, and you're good to go.

 

 

Here is a description from Dolby about Pro Logic II as it pertains to gaming.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/gaming/dolby-pro-logic-ii.html

 

 

 

For modern gaming, Pro Logic II is not needed, as games and consoles are no longer limited to 2 channel output (like they were with the Wii, PS2, Gamecube, etc).  The game audio in modern consoles already support multi channel 5.1 surround, and the consoles are capable of multi-channel output already (Dolby Digital 5.1, etc).  So there is no need to use Pro Logic, either to embed spatial cues into stereo tracks or even expand those stereo trackis in the first place.  Using Pro Logic would be unnecessary and inferior to using the already-there 5.1 surround sound.

 

So if your using Pro logic with a modern console, your doing it wrong.


Edited by chicolom - 12/11/13 at 3:42pm
post #18897 of 37362

Sometime next year I'm going to be buying an additional pair of "all rounder" headphones to be used for gaming, music as well as movies.  I've only owned the Ultrasone 900s as well as the Beyerdynamic 880DT Premium (600hz) in terms of audiophile level headphones are concerned.  Out of every set I've ever been able to listen to, so far I've found the 880DTs to be some of the most balanced, while I absolutely cannot stand the Ultrasones for anything.  The treble is just too much on those.  I think the 880DTs are also some of the most comfortable (modded them with the lambskin pads too) and do an admiral job for most situations, although sometimes when using Dolby Headphone, the positional cues just seem "off".  Although that might just be the sound source, because most everything with a DTS track played through my Xonar just sounds great, especially when using the modified 7.1 virtualization drivers.

Anyway, could the K702 65th Anniversary Edition be considered an evolutionary step up from the Beyers, or would the jump to them sound somewhat alien?  From the review in this thread, they kind of seem to have everything that I like about the Beyers...just more of it, with everything just done better overall.  I prefer the soundstage to be as close to neutral as possible without an overemphasis on either bass or treble, but not terribly lacking in either as well.  It's also kind of hard for me to really tell the difference between a "Fun" sounding headphone and a "Competitive" one, because to me it's the same thing.  I want them to sound great while also having really good accuracy, not one at the sake of the other.

 

Quote:
So I gotta say, the Pro 900 is lethal with Dolby Headphone. They are stupid awesome for gaming.

 

This is probably one of the opinions that I couldn't possibly agree less with.  Not only are they not good sounding with Dolby Headphone (used them with various DH setups/amps) to me, but the almost recessed to the point of not existing mids are just awful on these thanks to the bass and glass shattering highs drowning them out.  They are simply painful for me to listen to after about thirty minutes, especially if it's any kind of audio with gunfire.  I know everyone hears things slightly different, but these headphones have been nothing but an awful experience for me and probably the biggest waste of money I've ever spent on a luxury item.  I bought them due to all of the mega praise they received in their dedicated thread and all of the claims that "after 60000 hours of burn in they sound fantastic" and with X mod and recabling etc/whatever that the mids are no longer recessed.  I guess if you never listen to vocals and only dubstep or dance, you wouldn't really notice.

To me, the best thing about them are explosions.  When it comes to that, these are just great.  But then you have to deal with the obnoxious to the point of being painful high end, so they aren't worth it.


Edited by Sanctuary - 12/11/13 at 3:46pm
post #18898 of 37362

I'm not sure any AKG can be considered an evolutionary step up from a Beyer.  They're sort of have two different house sounds.

 

I haven't heard the DT880s in forever, but I imagine the Anniversary will be warmer sounding, with darker treble and thicker mids.

 

 

Ultrasones tend to be very polarizing (not too suprising given their radical driver design/placement).

post #18899 of 37362

Since I got my black Friday he400s, I have been using the akg702 Annie's on my console setup. And it is Amazing for FPS's. I was using a pair of senn hd598s, and they are no slouches, but the Annie's just pinpoint everything with ease. They also have enough bass to be fun, when immersion is the goal. 

post #18900 of 37362
Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessPFG View Post

Good explanation of Dolby technology (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

I know nothing about Dolby stuff, like at all really.


When a game is labeled to have "Dolby Pro Logic II," what does that mean?

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-pro-logic-ii-details.html
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/home-theater/dolby-pro-logic-II.html


Does that mean a DSP technology is involved?

Dolby Pro Logic (II) is a means of encoding/matrixing extra surround channels into a two-channel signal, generally used for devices that can't bitstream Dolby Digital over S/PDIF and only have the two analog channels, mainly 5th-gen consoles, the GCN, the Wii, and even the PS2 (which, unlike the Xbox, only outputs Dolby Digital in pre-rendered cutscenes and doesn't seem to have the performance to encode Dolby Digital in real-time). They use some phase-shifting and other trickery to accomplish this; Wikipedia has the details, if you trust it.

The main difference between Dolby Surround/Pro Logic and Dolby Pro Logic II seems to be how the rear channels are handled. Old Pro Logic only has one combined rear channel, but Pro Logic II has separate rear channels and the center channel (derived from information present in both front left and front right channels).

Because they're not discrete channels like Dolby Digital or DTS, they are prone to crosstalk, degrading the quality a little, and a Dolby Pro Logic (II) decoder cannot detect such a signal automatically; it has to be manually set, which also means that you have to know whether or not the source is set for Pro Logic (II) output. (Simply put, if a game offers you "Mono", "Stereo" and "Surround" options, the "Surround" option is most likely a Pro Logic-encoded signal.)

In other words, yes, there is a DSP involved to some extent due to the way the surround channels are encoded and decoded. You still won't get any extra positional cues without Dolby Headphone mixing the surround channels extracted from the Dolby Pro Logic II signal accordingly, though.

My usual Pro Logic test thus far is Metroid Prime. It doesn't take long to get to an area where you can test out the positional cues, and they're surprisingly good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsh View Post

Dolby pro logic is jsut upmixing of 2 channels to 7.1 channels. Not good for anything

It's not a simple "speaker fill" for stereo signals like you're claiming it to be, particularly given my explanation above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicolom View Post

Good explanation of Dolby technology (Click to show)
]
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsh View Post

 
Dolby pro logic is jsut upmixing of 2 channels to 7.1 channels.

Not good for anything

I wouldn't say that. 

It is good for older consoles and devices that are limited to 2 channel output (such as the Wii).  In those cases, where the device is limited to 2 channel output, Pro Logic II is the next best alternative to having true multi channel audio.  

Basically, there's two kinds of Pro Logic:  One is where you take a plain 2 channel signal and expand it to 5.1.  This is what will happen if you try and use Pro Logic with any modern console, as they only have plain stereo tracks and aren't encoded for Pro Logic II (because they don't need to be, as they have actual 5.1 tracks and output).

The other kind of Pro logic is where you actually encode your stereo track for Pro Logic II beforehand, then later decode it/expand it to multi-channel surround.  From Dolby: "Stereo soundtracks, while maintaining compatibility with standard stereo playback, can also be encoded to deliver specific surround and localization effects when played through a Dolby Pro Logic II decoder."  This is what devices like the Wii do.  When you encode a stereo track for Pro Logic, it adds certain spacial cues to the stereo signal that, when expanded later, do a more convincing job of emulating 5.1 surround than if you had just used a regular stereo signal as the source for that expansion.  

Basically consoles like the Wii are aware of their limitation of only being able to output 2 channels, so as a partial workaround they choose to encode their stereo tracks with the Pro Logic II spatial cues.  It's obviously not as good as having true 5.1 channels, but it at least lets them upscale their 2 channel content to a 5.1 channel ouput (via any Pro Logic II decoding device such as a Home Theater AVR - or a mixamp) in a more convincing matter than if they had just used a plain stereo signal. 

So when you plug a 2 channel console like the Wii into a Mixamp, what happens is the Wii outputs its Pro Logic II encoded stereo signal to the mixamp, the Mixamp decodes that signal via its Pro Logic II decoder and simultaneously expands the signal to 5.1 (making use of those Pro Logic spatial cues in the process).  Finally the Mixamp takes that freshly upscaled 5.1 channel signal and encodes that into Dolby Headphone (a 2 channel stereo signal for use with your headphones).  On a modern console with Dolby Digital 5.1 output, none of those Pro Logic II steps are needed.  The console simply outputs DD 5.1 directly to the Mixamp, the Mixamp takes those 5 channels and converts them into Dolby Headphone, and you're good to go.


Here is a description from Dolby about Pro Logic II as it pertains to gaming.
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/gaming/dolby-pro-logic-ii.html



For modern gaming, Pro Logic II is not needed, as games and consoles are no longer limited to 2 channel output (like they were with the Wii, PS2, Gamecube, etc).  The game audio in modern consoles already support multi channel 5.1 surround, and the consoles are capable of multi-channel output already (Dolby Digital 5.1, etc).  So there is no need to use Pro Logic, either to embed spatial cues into stereo tracks or even expand those stereo trackis in the first place.  Using Pro Logic would be unnecessary and inferior to using the already-there 5.1 surround sound.

So if your using Pro logic with a modern console, your doing it wrong.

Wow, thanks for the great explanation guys! That was really helpful.
I'm looking at the Wii games I have and a lot of them have the Pro Logic II technology, even Wii Sports. I've really been missing out on this stuff haven't I? :-o
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