Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik 
If the less-expensive cables don't transmit the entire signal, then why doesn't that show up in measurements?
Since high-end cables are all built with different materials and different design philosophies, then how come all of them "work"? Shouldn't it be that some designs work while others don't? Yet you get testimonial "evidence" that all of them, purportedly, "work." How can that be?
If every design "works," then the cheap cables ought to work the same as any design, since it appears that any design - even ones contradictory to other designs - "works." Which actually seems to bear out with testing. There is no difference, as far as anyone can tell.
If testing and measurements are, somehow, inadequate, then why do they bear out with cables for high power or high frequencies? Those cables behave according to known physics and prove to be measurable and predictable. Why do measurements and testing work for these applications, but not for audio frequencies?
Also interesting is that - supposedly - unmeasurable differences can be "heard" in cables. The odd part there is that the resistors and caps in your amps aren't perfectly matched. You might have a 100.79 Ohm resistor on the left channel and a 100.12 Ohm resistor on the right channel. These slight variations are in every amp and can be measured accurately with a $10 DMM. Not only that, but you'll be able to measure slight differences in output due to that, as well. By the way, that example is within a 1% tolerance, which is excellent. You'll commonly find tolerances in the 10%-15% range for lots of parts. You might very well have a 96 Ohm and a 103 Ohm resistor mirroring each other in an amp's channels. That's within the tolerances of lots of gear out there. You'd be surprised if you actually knew what was inside most amps.
If a believer's ears are so golden to notice unmeasurable differences in cables, then why are they unable to hear the measurable differences between the channels in their amp? Why aren't people hooting and hollering because of the measurable differences between channels? The differences are unquestionably there. I can prove it with any amp, and so can anyone else.
If you people are saying that you can hear unmeasurable differences in cables while not being able to hear a 5% variation between channels in your amp, you've got your heads screwed on funny. If you don't believe me, go get a $10 DMM and start measuring what's inside your amps. Measure your sources, too. You'll be lucky if you have 5% or less of variation between channels. You'll probably find a 10% variation or larger between parts in each channel.
Yet I've never seen a single cable believer who notices this measurable difference between left and right. Not once.
By the way, you can get tight tolerances between channels. Most of us DIY'ers have gear like that. For the crossovers in my ProAc Response 2.5 clones, I bought extra parts for careful hand-matching. It cost me about $100 more and took a few hours to sort through and label the measurements of everything. Since I had to unwind the inductors for certain unmanufactured values, I was able to measure them myself and got them very close in each channel. I spent a couple of hours doing this, as well.
If you think hours of very careful hand-matching and a bunch of wasted caps and resistors went into your $500 DAC or amp, I have news for you. Again, go measure for yourself. There's a lot of variation between components marked with the same value. I invite all of you to pick up a meter and start measuring your own gear.
When the reality of 10%-15% variation sinks in, ask yourself how it's possible to not hear that unquestionable variation while also "hearing" a variation with cables that have no measurable differences.
The differences you think you hear aren't really there.
If the less-expensive cables don't transmit the entire signal, then why doesn't that show up in measurements?
Since high-end cables are all built with different materials and different design philosophies, then how come all of them "work"? Shouldn't it be that some designs work while others don't? Yet you get testimonial "evidence" that all of them, purportedly, "work." How can that be?
If every design "works," then the cheap cables ought to work the same as any design, since it appears that any design - even ones contradictory to other designs - "works." Which actually seems to bear out with testing. There is no difference, as far as anyone can tell.
If testing and measurements are, somehow, inadequate, then why do they bear out with cables for high power or high frequencies? Those cables behave according to known physics and prove to be measurable and predictable. Why do measurements and testing work for these applications, but not for audio frequencies?
Also interesting is that - supposedly - unmeasurable differences can be "heard" in cables. The odd part there is that the resistors and caps in your amps aren't perfectly matched. You might have a 100.79 Ohm resistor on the left channel and a 100.12 Ohm resistor on the right channel. These slight variations are in every amp and can be measured accurately with a $10 DMM. Not only that, but you'll be able to measure slight differences in output due to that, as well. By the way, that example is within a 1% tolerance, which is excellent. You'll commonly find tolerances in the 10%-15% range for lots of parts. You might very well have a 96 Ohm and a 103 Ohm resistor mirroring each other in an amp's channels. That's within the tolerances of lots of gear out there. You'd be surprised if you actually knew what was inside most amps.
If a believer's ears are so golden to notice unmeasurable differences in cables, then why are they unable to hear the measurable differences between the channels in their amp? Why aren't people hooting and hollering because of the measurable differences between channels? The differences are unquestionably there. I can prove it with any amp, and so can anyone else.
If you people are saying that you can hear unmeasurable differences in cables while not being able to hear a 5% variation between channels in your amp, you've got your heads screwed on funny. If you don't believe me, go get a $10 DMM and start measuring what's inside your amps. Measure your sources, too. You'll be lucky if you have 5% or less of variation between channels. You'll probably find a 10% variation or larger between parts in each channel.
Yet I've never seen a single cable believer who notices this measurable difference between left and right. Not once.
By the way, you can get tight tolerances between channels. Most of us DIY'ers have gear like that. For the crossovers in my ProAc Response 2.5 clones, I bought extra parts for careful hand-matching. It cost me about $100 more and took a few hours to sort through and label the measurements of everything. Since I had to unwind the inductors for certain unmanufactured values, I was able to measure them myself and got them very close in each channel. I spent a couple of hours doing this, as well.
If you think hours of very careful hand-matching and a bunch of wasted caps and resistors went into your $500 DAC or amp, I have news for you. Again, go measure for yourself. There's a lot of variation between components marked with the same value. I invite all of you to pick up a meter and start measuring your own gear.
When the reality of 10%-15% variation sinks in, ask yourself how it's possible to not hear that unquestionable variation while also "hearing" a variation with cables that have no measurable differences.
The differences you think you hear aren't really there.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I knew of the relatively large tolerances in crossovers and amps (DC voltage bias, anyone?) but for some reason it never occurred to me to bring that up with the cable debate...
That reminds me - scroll down about half way here until you see the giant four-tower Infinity speakers:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/roadtour13/roadtour13.html
It's worth a read - he unglued and replaced 480 magnets for the EMIM midrange drivers (each has 20!), and measured the resistance of each of the 72 (!) EMIT tweeters and spent the time matching drivers between the sides. I can't even begin to imagine how long that took...
