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Diary of a Madman (My wild one day CES ride) - Page 3

post #31 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinocelt View Post

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post
The transparency of the ES5 is just unmatched from what I heard even with the hint of warmth. Better than the UERM IMO despite it being blacker, quieter and a bit clearer.
[...]
After much thought I was actually thinking I might have to get the UERM and ES5.  >.<  However, I think the ES5 is a lock for me and the question is which would be the better audio monitoring tool, UERM or JH3A?

 

I don't get it. If the ES5 is more transparent, more realistic (from your description of cymbals and horns), shouldn't it be the best audio monitoring tool, despite the IERM having been designed specifically with that purpose in mind?


Not necessarily.  Remember, when monitoring studio music you want to make out finer details.  Sometimes this means touching up the treble a bit, leaning out the low end, etc.  You want uber clarity yes, but transparency, as in getting 'lost' in your music, is not necessary or even desired for a professional mixing tool.  I'm notorious for bad car analogies so here is another one.  Imagine you want to buy the 'best' car.  Another person says, check out this new Ferrari.  It has the best 0-60, best skidpad performance and best braking.  So you go for a test drive and you realize you can't carry your luggage and golf clubs, it only seats two, gets terrible mileage and hurts your back getting in and out.  The Ferrari is the 'best' car as a 'tool' for a specific purpose.  To live with as a daily driver is another matter.  YMMV, no pun intended.  tongue.gif  Hope that makes some sense.

 

Btw, thanks for all the positive feedback guys.  Appreciate it.

beerchug.gif

post #32 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinocelt View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post
The transparency of the ES5 is just unmatched from what I heard even with the hint of warmth. Better than the UERM IMO despite it being blacker, quieter and a bit clearer.
[...]
After much thought I was actually thinking I might have to get the UERM and ES5.  >.<  However, I think the ES5 is a lock for me and the question is which would be the better audio monitoring tool, UERM or JH3A?

 

I don't get it. If the ES5 is more transparent, more realistic (from your description of cymbals and horns), shouldn't it be the best audio monitoring tool, despite the IERM having been designed specifically with that purpose in mind?


Not necessarily.  Remember, when monitoring studio music you want to make out finer details.  Sometimes this means touching up the treble a bit, leaning out the low end, etc.  You want uber clarity yes, but transparency, as in getting 'lost' in your music, is not necessary or even desired for a professional mixing tool.  I'm notorious for bad car analogies so here is another one.  Imagine you want to buy the 'best' car.  Another person says, check out this new Ferrari.  It has the best 0-60, best skidpad performance and best braking.  So you go for a test drive and you realize you can't carry your luggage and golf clubs, it only seats two, gets terrible mileage and hurts your back getting in and out.  The Ferrari is the 'best' car as a 'tool' for a specific purpose.  To live with as a daily driver is another matter.  YMMV, no pun intended.  tongue.gif  Hope that makes some sense.


Er, so so. Sorry to insist, but I'm currently looking to invest in a pair of custom earphones for audio tracking and mixing, and since I won't be able to test-drive them (alas), I've got to rely on other people's feedback -- so I like to make sure I understand what I read.
 

Of course, I do understand the "different tools for different purposes" philosophy. But when I track or mix, I want to hear something as close as possible to the live sound. It starts with a good recording chain, of course, but after that, good monitors are key.

 

What I don't understand is how monitors that are better at reproducing sound realistically (i.e. closest to what you heard when doing the recording) cannot be the best for monitoring. You make it sound like the clarity of the IERM makes cymbals sound less like cymbals, compared to the ES5. To me, that doesn't sound like the hallmark of a better monitoring tool, however precise it may be.

 

I'm just trying to understand before I shed the big bucks. triportsad.gif

 

 

post #33 of 106
Thread Starter 

No worries.  For mixing and tracking get the UEIERM IMO.  Let's look at the cymbal example.  First, unless you were at the actual recording event there is no way to know exactly how the actual source sounded.  I was going by samples I am familiar with but did not record myself.  There is also the debate about what is 'accurate' to the source versus what is 'accurate' to the recording.  I reference an article from Stereophile comparing the Koss ESP950 and Stax Lambdas on the matter here.  Scroll down half way to 'Is it real..."  To paraphrase:

 

"The question still remained, however: Which set of headphones was the more accurate? My final conclusion came down on the side of the Staxes, but it was not without some degree of uncertainty. The Kosses seemed to err slightly on the warm side of neutral at the low end, while the Staxes sounded a bit leaner than the live piano. The top end of the Kosses seemed closer to what I was hearing from the piano itself, with the Staxes slightly emphasizing air and ambience. But one additional variable—difficult to judge precisely—seemed to tilt the balance in favor of the Staxes: the sound of the Manley mike. Judging from how it compared with the sound of the B&K omnis, it would seem to have a trace of leanness in the bass. David Manley also indicated that, like many condenser mikes, it has a small rise on top—perhaps +2dB at 12kHz—resulting in slightly lean bass and a slight increase in top-end air.

This sounded very much like my impression of the Stax headphones compared with the live sound. The Staxes thus appeared to be telling me what the mikes were picking up. The Kosses, in contrast, were just a bit sweeter, warmer, and more forgiving..."

 

So IERM to my ears sounds more akin to what a mic would pick up.  They sound fantastic and wring ever bit of detail out they can but I as often feel like I am not actually there hearing the performance in a transcendent way.  The ES5 on the other hand does that.  They are less concerned w/ spatial cues to the n'th degree but more so w/ the overall atmosphere and sound as a cohesive, natural entity.  So back to the cymbals, the IERM might sound more accurate along the FR or add a bit more sparkle to enhance the detail for effect, but the ES5 gives it weight and body impressing upon you the feeling it is ringing right next to you in a room you are actually in.  From the impact of the strike to the richness of its reverberations.  It's really two different things.  Like being analytical versus Intuitive.  On one hand you listen and perceive everything you are able to take in that is presented.  On the other hand you don't so much as listen, the music just washes over you and it takes you there.  If you are looking for something to do both, I haven't heard it yet.  It seems to be a rather zero sum game from my listening experience where compromises have to be made.  So for what you are asking for, the IERM is the better choice IMHO.


Edited by Anaxilus - 1/10/11 at 12:42am
post #34 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post


No worries.  For mixing and tracking get the UEIERM IMO.  Let's look at the cymbal example.  First, unless you were at the actual recording event there is no way to know exactly how the actual source sounded.  I was going by samples I am familiar with but did not record myself.  There is also the debate about what is 'accurate' to the source versus what is 'accurate' to the recording.  I reference an article from Stereophile comparing the Koss ESP950 and Stax Lambdas on the matter here.  Scroll down half way to 'Is it real..."  To paraphrase:



 



"The question still remained, however: Which set of headphones was the more accurate? My final conclusion came down on the side of the Staxes, but it was not without some degree of uncertainty. The Kosses seemed to err slightly on the warm side of neutral at the low end, while the Staxes sounded a bit leaner than the live piano. The top end of the Kosses seemed closer to what I was hearing from the piano itself, with the Staxes slightly emphasizing air and ambience. But one additional variable—difficult to judge precisely—seemed to tilt the balance in favor of the Staxes: the sound of the Manley mike. Judging from how it compared with the sound of the B&K omnis, it would seem to have a trace of leanness in the bass. David Manley also indicated that, like many condenser mikes, it has a small rise on top—perhaps +2dB at 12kHz—resulting in slightly lean bass and a slight increase in top-end air.



This sounded very much like my impression of the Stax headphones compared with the live sound. The Staxes thus appeared to be telling me what the mikes were picking up. The Kosses, in contrast, were just a bit sweeter, warmer, and more forgiving..."



 



So IERM to my ears sounds more akin to what a mic would pick up.  They sound fantastic and wring ever bit of detail out they can but I as often feel like I am not actually there hearing the performance in a transcendent way.  The ES5 on the other hand does that.  They are less concerned w/ spatial cues to the n'th degree but more so w/ the overall atmosphere and sound as a cohesive, natural entity.  So back to the cymbals, the IERM might sound more accurate along the FR or add a bit more sparkle to enhance the detail for effect, but the ES5 gives it weight and body impressing upon you the feeling it is ringing right next to you in a room you are actually in.  From the impact of the strike to the richness of its reverberations.  It's really two different things.  Like being analytical versus Intuitive.  On one hand you listen and perceive everything you are able to take in that is presented.  On the other hand you don't so much as listen, the music just washes over you and it takes you there.  If you are looking for something to do both, I haven't heard it yet.  It seems to be a rather zero sum game from my listening experience where compromises have to be made.  So for what you are asking for, the IERM is the better choice IMHO.




 



What you're missing here is that the ES5 as a full dual-bore custom IEM is even better sounding and more detailed than the demo version. I think they are my best custom IEM, and could be used by audiophiles, musicians, and mixers. I do think your descriptions of the differences in universal demos is good, but I thought the UE RM demos were not as good as the ES5 demos or actual custom for my enjoyment.
post #35 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict View Post

 

What you're missing here is that the ES5 as a full dual-bore custom IEM is even better sounding and more detailed than the demo version. I think they are my best custom IEM, and could be used by audiophiles, musicians, and mixers. I do think your descriptions of the differences in universal demos is good, but I thought the UE RM demos were not as good as the ES5 demos or actual custom for my enjoyment.


Good point, I forgot to notice the bore on the ES5 demo.  I do think the UERM was dual bore on their demo if I recall.  The UEIERM IEMs seemed specifically geared as a tool as such.  I'm certainly with you when it comes to the enjoyment aspect as I tried to make clear in my impressions.  Like I said, if I could have only one, the ES5 would be it, single or dual bore.      

post #36 of 106

Thank you again, Anaxilus. Yes, I understand better now. By the way, just like you, I'm interested in UE's silicone option, but the latest email I got from them on that very subject doesn't bode well for a prompt release, in spite of what they'd told me in October.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict View Post
What you're missing here is that the ES5 as a full dual-bore custom IEM is even better sounding and more detailed than the demo version. I think they are my best custom IEM, and could be used by audiophiles, musicians, and mixers. I do think your descriptions of the differences in universal demos is good, but I thought the UE RM demos were not as good as the ES5 demos or actual custom for my enjoyment.

 

Actually, Anaxilus said the same, about the enjoyment part: that he preferred the ES5. But enjoyment may not be my priority. You do mention "mixers" in your post; so how would you compare the ES5 and the IERM from a mixer's point of view?

 

OK, maybe I should be more specific. Here's my situation: I work as an Assistant Professor of French, and moonlight as a translator. I also used to work as a voice actor for New York Audio Productions, before I left the States. Since then, I've only worked on audio projects for my university, but later this year, I'll have the opportunity to record audiobooks for my favorite author: Orson Scott Card. I've got thousands of dollars to invest to start with. By the end of January, I'll receive a pre-selection of different microphones, among which I'll get to pick a few (for three to four thousand dollars) before sending back the rest. That's the first task for which I'll need customs. The second task will be tracking (and since I'll be recording myself, enjoyment can actually matter, as I'm likely to perform better if I like what I hear) then "mixing" (if I don't let someone with more technical expertise take care of this stage of the project; I probably will).

post #37 of 106

SC, you've undoubtedly read (and read and read....) impressions posted throughout this website. methinks you'll just have to either pull the trigger at some point, or better yet go to a big show and listen for yourself prior to making a decision!  too bad you weren't at ces (or rocky mntn or canjam or .....).


Edited by daveDerek - 1/10/11 at 7:15am
post #38 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveDerek View Post

SC, you've undoubtedly read (and read and read....) impressions posted throughout this website. methinks you'll just have to either pull the trigger at some point, or better yet go to a big show and listen for yourself prior to making a decision!  too bad you weren't at ces (or rocky mntn or canjam or .....).


Too bad going to any of those shows would cost me as much as buying both the IERM and the ES5.


Edited by Sinocelt - 1/10/11 at 8:01am
post #39 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinocelt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveDerek View Post

SC, you've undoubtedly read (and read and read....) impressions posted throughout this website. methinks you'll just have to either pull the trigger at some point, or better yet go to a big show and listen for yourself prior to making a decision!  too bad you weren't at ces (or rocky mntn or canjam or .....).


Too bad going to any of those shows would cost me as much as buying both the IERM and the ES5.

 

yeah, but you'd have a good time answering your questions, and then you could start a thread about your awesome experience! wink.gif
maybe you should just buy the jh-3a and be done with it. the demo es5 i heard was excellent, and that was comparing it to my jh13s (and you have a pretty good idea just how good those are), but the jh-3a is a game changer. from what i've heard, the ue ierm is quite special too. maybe you should just get them all, and then get back to us. eek.gifbiggrin.gifetysmile.gifbeerchug.gifpopcorn.gif


Edited by daveDerek - 1/10/11 at 6:05pm
post #40 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveDerek View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinocelt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveDerek View Post

SC, you've undoubtedly read (and read and read....) impressions posted throughout this website. methinks you'll just have to either pull the trigger at some point, or better yet go to a big show and listen for yourself prior to making a decision!  too bad you weren't at ces (or rocky mntn or canjam or .....).


Too bad going to any of those shows would cost me as much as buying both the IERM and the ES5.

 

yeah, but you'd have a good time answering your questions, and then you could start a thread abut your awesome experience! wink.gif

 

Are you offering me a planet ticket? That's so nice of you! Because that's about the only way I'll fit such a trip in my budget.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveDerek View Post

 

maybe you should just buy the jh-3a and be done with it. the demo es5 i heard was excellent, and that was comparing it to my jh13s (and you have a pretty good idea just how good those are), but the jh-3a is a game changer. from what i've heard, the ue ierm is quite special too.

 

The JH-3A isn't portable enough.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveDerek View Post

maybe you should just get them all, and then get back to us. eek.gifbiggrin.gifetysmile.gifbeerchug.gifpopcorn.gif

 

Sure. No problem. As long as you pay for them, same as for the plane ticket. You do seem to have infinite pockets! I'm jealous, because I sure don't. frown.gif

post #41 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinocelt View Post

Thank you again, Anaxilus. Yes, I understand better now. By the way, just like you, I'm interested in UE's silicone option, but the latest email I got from them on that very subject doesn't bode well for a prompt release, in spite of what they'd told me in October.
 

 

Actually, Anaxilus said the same, about the enjoyment part: that he preferred the ES5. But enjoyment may not be my priority. You do mention "mixers" in your post; so how would you compare the ES5 and the IERM from a mixer's point of view?

 

OK, maybe I should be more specific. Here's my situation: I work as an Assistant Professor of French, and moonlight as a translator. I also used to work as a voice actor for New York Audio Productions, before I left the States. Since then, I've only worked on audio projects for my university, but later this year, I'll have the opportunity to record audiobooks for my favorite author: Orson Scott Card. I've got thousands of dollars to invest to start with. By the end of January, I'll receive a pre-selection of different microphones, among which I'll get to pick a few (for three to four thousand dollars) before sending back the rest. That's the first task for which I'll need customs. The second task will be tracking (and since I'll be recording myself, enjoyment can actually matter, as I'm likely to perform better if I like what I hear) then "mixing" (if I don't let someone with more technical expertise take care of this stage of the project; I probably will).



 



Well, I don't do mixing. But my logic is that I'd be afraid that with my JH13Pro or UE11Pro that they would have me add too much mids and too little bass to the mix, because of their sonic balance is geared towards having louder bass than mids. And mixing with the ES3X might result in mixing in too little mids into the recording because of their forward mids. The ES5 seem better balanced to me than the others, and sound very accurate to me along with great speed and micro detail, so I figured they'd work well in that regard. Truth be told, there may be a warm tint added with the ES5 and a slight boost in the treble sparkle, but that depends on my source and amp as well, and it's not very pronounced. I thought the UE RM demos sounded a little colder, but not thin or bright. As far as enjoyment goes, I preferred the UE18 demos over the RM (JH16 demos too).
Edited by HeadphoneAddict - 1/10/11 at 11:15pm
post #42 of 106

I would have a difficult time resigning myself to making a selection that was less versatile on the basis of what I imagine to be a very minor difference in FR linearity.  A pure monitor means "tuned for less bass" in audio-speak, at least in my experience.    Everything I've read about the ES5 suggests to me that they're not likely to present the kind of problems that HPA suggests the ES3X or UE11's would present, and would therefore meet the linearity criteria without sounding artificially cold.  I think it's tempting to get caught up in the idea of having a specific tool for a specific purpose, and getting sold on marketing that doesn't necessarily reflect real world differences.    

 

post #43 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict View Post

 

Well, I don't do mixing. But my logic is that I'd be afraid that with my JH13Pro or UE11Pro that they would have me add too much mids and too little bass to the mix, because of their sonic balance is geared towards having louder bass than mids. And mixing with the ES3X might result in mixing in too little mids into the recording because of their forward mids. The ES5 seem better balanced to me than the others, and sound very accurate to me along with great speed and micro detail, so I figured they'd work well in that regard. Truth be told, there may be a warm tint added with the ES5 and a slight boost in the treble sparkle, but that depends on my source and amp as well, and it's not very pronounced. I thought the UE RM demos sounded a little colder, but not thin or bright. As far as enjoyment goes, I preferred the UE18 demos over the RM (JH16 demos too).


Interesting. I personally don't find the ES5 treble to be especially bright. But it is quite lovely.

 

(I may be influenced by the fact that my main full-size cans are the DT880/600s which are famously on the slightly bright side - although not so much with USB Monica which synergises with them nicely.)
 

post #44 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooperpwc View Post


Interesting. I personally don't find the ES5 treble to be especially bright. But it is quite lovely.

 

(I may be influenced by the fact that my main full-size cans are the DT880/600s which are famously on the slightly bright side - although not so much with USB Monica which synergises with them nicely.)
 



 



I did clearly say it's not pronounced.
post #45 of 106

I didn't find the JH13 bassy (JH16 very much so) and have never heard the ES5 but I would recommend that Sinocelt not worry about getting anything overly analytical as these are all more informative that he needs for his purpose and get the one he thinks sound most real to him. Probably JH13 or ES5. I'm a fan of AKG large diaphram mics.

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