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Cables and Snake Oil - Please read before you are fooled! - Page 4

post #46 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by kboe View Post
With cables, at least for me, its the same deal.  I've "dated" many offerings, found one I liked, "married" it, and am living happily ever after. So when someone comes up to me and says, "cables make no difference", or in my other analogy "your wife "gets around", to late buddy, I already now my wife, and her name is Cardas!


I have nothing much to say except I randomly did a google image search for cardas girl and got a rather unexpected result.

post #47 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by kboe View Post

 

I actually like what you bring up here Jerry.  This hobby is all about discovery, it's why some of us change our gear so often.  It's also why we listen to great varieties of music, and prefer all manner of things over many other things.  

 

But at some point, when you've heard enough cables, and if you can consistently hear the differences and influences among them, when someone tells you your full of crap, or you can't really hear a difference, you can only think a difference, you've already discovered that part of the journey and need to "go" no further. 


There are a lot of threads on cables here I simply don't touch. I'm not now and never have been out to find believers of difference and convert them to believers of non-difference (nor vice versa). There are, however, other threads that ask the question, or make objective claims and, being on a discussion board, I come to discuss.

 

If start a thread if Cardas cables will make a difference, there's a good chance I'll post in it.

If you start a thread saying you love Carda cables, you'll likely not see me there.

 

On this thread we have someone saying more than "X" cables are better. He's saying he has a lot of experience on the design side and designed better cables. That's always going to make me hunt for more information. I'm not out to prove him wrong (though I freely admit I believe he is), and so am not trying to "win"... but I am going to ask probing questions to try to understand the basis of his position.

 

Sometimes it turns out I was wrong all along. Sometimes it turns out there's just a difference in precepts. Sometimes it turns out the other poster was wrong. It's all good.

 

And whether I'm disposed to believe or nor believe: I guarentee you I'd be picking the brain of most highly skilled designers talking about something I don't fully understand.

post #48 of 170

Quote:

Originally Posted by Br777 View Post

ive never compared cables in my life, and have no strong opinion on the matter.  I do find it interesting though that so many people argue science as the end all be all, and im not just referring to audio cables.

 

in the grand scheme of explaining the endless marvels and wonder in this world.. science has barely scratched the surface, and has a very limited scope.  For any subject you pick its almost certain that science may have missed, or doesnt even know about any number of variables.

For me it's very interesting how often people start using a word like "science" inappropriately,

 

Quote:
my goodness how many times, even within the most prominent scientific fileds, has a rock solid "proven" theory been turned on its head and found to be much bigger and more complex than anyone could have ever imagined.

Never that we are aware of. There are no theories in science which are beyond human imagination. That would require some non-human to invent them.

 

Quote:
i also always get a little skeptical when people argue hardcore science over good ol fashioned experience.  Nearly every person on this planet has easily had at least 1 experience that science cant explain.  Thats not to say that experience isnt just as easily skewed..  but anyway....

But science *is* experience, and experience *is* science. Your understanding of the word is odd.

 

Look at your "science can't explain" statement: as though that's what science does. A scientific theory is a model which makes falsifiable predictions about reality which are accurate.

 

There seems to be a disturbing trend to use "science", "logic", and "reason" as nigh-derogatory.

post #49 of 170

 

Look at your "science can't explain" statement: as though that's what science does. A scientific theory is a model which makes falsifiable predictions about reality which are accurate.

 

There seems to be a disturbing trend to use "science", "logic", and "reason" as nigh-derogatory.



Science works for what it does - but it doesn't access everything.  Science doesn't tell us anything without some pretty un-scientific processes to decode the data.  All value statements are un-scientific, for instance.  That's sorta huge - because values are what drive scientific experimentation.  They don't effect the data, but they DO provide the motivation for what we look at and how we look at it - as well as how we interpret it.

 

This is irrelevant as applies to Headphonia, though.

post #50 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Root2 View Post

 


Now I designed the cable with a very sceptical mind

 

You designed a cable? That must have taken quite a bit of research? Is your degree in engineering or science? Did this in any way stem from work you did on thesis (such as Dr.Bose's thesis on non-linear systems)? What drew you to take a look at audio reproduction? Do you have any background in sound research, physiology, or psychology?

 

I'm working from the assumption that you didn't put all the time and effort of developing a new wire on the assumption that you could do better without some basic understanding of what was going wrong in the first place?

 

What factors did you find were most important in getting a useful signal to the transducer at the other end? Most engineers and physicists in the industry have pointed squarely at impedance in high power lines (such as speaker line); specifically the relationship of the resistance of the entire cable as a percentage of the resistance of the circuit (why speaker gauge needs to go up with lower ohm-ratings and longer lengths).

 

We have about 150 year of some of the greatest minds in the world working on electrical cabling (throughout the communications and power distribution world). What did you discover that they had thusfar missed and how did you discover it?


 

For fun I would like to play devils advocate from an interview I had with George Cardas to answer your questions in a manner that I find appropriate as I would like to see what comes next as these are rational questions.

 

So allow me to answer for Mr. Cardas:

His degree is in chemistry, he has worked in the cable industry for 28 years and before that worked in various positions both in the design and production (engineering) aspects of transmission lines for telephone companies. He took a look into audio reproduction as he is an audiophile. He has a background in research from his chemistry degree and his posts at the phone company. I  can not comment on his thesis or how much of his design was trial and error or research based.

 

He found issues in the dielectric storing energy as current passed and releasing it out of phase with the current. He also wanted to eliminate the vibration of the conductors as current passed. I would say that he had a goal going into the cable design. 

 

As above his major factors were matching the dielectric to the velocity of propagation of the conduction to eliminate the storing and releasing of energy out of phase. He also found a geometry for the conductors that eliminated the resonance as the current passed. Another breakthrough was to eliminate soldering of the connectors, instead he found a way to crimp forge them, about 10,000 psi of pressure. He also found that the copper purity played a role due to what he termed eddy currents. Though this is my own input, it makes sense that impurities would change the signal as the valence and conduction bands of the molecular orbitals of the crystal would be disrupted. He did not mention much about impedance during our interview.

 

He discovered that drawing and annealing copper in a hydrogen filled environment (termed oxygen reducing) provided eddy-free copper. He discovered and patented the geometry that eliminated resonance of the conductors as well as the process of matching the dielectric to the velocity of propagation of the wire. Though I did not ask directly, I would assume he would say that perhaps not all of those minds were looking at audio fidelity applications.

 

I answered to the best of my ability from my interview with him, but I feel I answered your questions appropriately. 

 

edit, here are some of the images he sent to show the differences in eddy containing and eddy-free copper:

Quickly drawn with visible eddies

eddy\

 

Some slowly drawn or extruded coppers. I believe the one on the right is the own from his foundry in the oxygen reducing atmosphere. 

eddy free

 

Dave


Edited by myinitialsaredac - 1/2/11 at 11:33pm
post #51 of 170
Quote:

Originally Posted by myinitialsaredac View Post

 

He found issues in the dielectric storing energy as current passed and releasing it out of phase with the current. He also wanted to eliminate the vibration of the conductors as current passed. I would say that he had a goal going into the cable design. 

 

As above his major factors were matching the dielectric to the velocity of propagation of the conduction to eliminate the storing and releasing of energy out of phase

 

I apologize in advance for the hatchet job on the quote, but there are a lot of individual points.
 

"Out of phase" with what?

 

Quote:
He also found a geometry for the conductors that eliminated the resonance as the current passed.

 

Given that circuit resonance's effects depends on whether the inductor and capacitor are in parallel or serial, I'm not sure how to apply this to a wire alone. Is he discussing a resonance that drops impedance or one which drops current? Do you have some measurements of this occuring within ranges appropriate to audio?

 

Quote:
Another breakthrough was to eliminate soldering of the connectors, instead he found a way to crimp forge them, about 10,000 psi of pressure. He also found that the copper purity played a role due to what he termed eddy currents. Though this is my own input, it makes sense that impurities would change the signal as the valence and conduction bands of the molecular orbitals of the crystal would be disrupted. He did not mention much about impedance during our interview.

 

Solder forms a chemical bond and seems to work very well. I'm not sure what an eddy current is, but since it's not something that appears as a problem in even the most sensitive of connectors (say, the multi-lane signals in a parallel-bus high-bandwidth interface like a PCI connecter), I'm having trouble imagining what the effect on an audio waveform might be.

 

What affect did these "eddy currents" have on electrical waves used in audio?

 

Quote:

He discovered that drawing and annealing copper in a hydrogen filled environment (termed oxygen reducing) provided eddy-free copper. He discovered and patented the geometry that eliminated resonance of the conductors as well as the process of matching the dielectric to the velocity of propagation of the wire. Though I did not ask directly, I would assume he would say that perhaps not all of those minds were looking at audio fidelity applications.

 

Wait. So we are discussing surface deformaties? What was the measured effect of these deformations on the electrical waveform?

 

 

 

post #52 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by kboe View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Doug View Post

sure, a 100 foot run of single-ended 18 gauge wire will prove fatal vs. a 5 foot run of 12 gauge balanced wire

 

when it comes to what you previously alluded to, that there is a difference between silver, spc, copper, and the like.... prove it, and I'll buy you a new car
 


Come over to Georgia and take a listen to my rig, then we can go get me a car.  And I prefer used and cheap to new and expensive so I'd be your best bet.

 


non-existent cars are even cheaper so he could go with anyone if he were to do a proper test. ;)

 

But I'm quite confident this is what he was alluding to in the first place :P

post #53 of 170

It would take all of 20 minutes for anyone with a decent soundcard to record various cable types and systematically/mathematically compare them to prove that they are all capable of getting the same signal to the destination. If I had the cables I would even do each one 5 times to ensure that any differences aren't being caused by other anomalies... although 1 minute or so of white noise should be enough, yeah?


Edited by Vkamicht - 1/3/11 at 3:05am
post #54 of 170

There have been some very interesting points from Colin Wonfor and about Cardas about cable making. However, a point that Uncle Erik has repeatedly made is how come different ways of making cables, some of which are contradictory (silver vs copper for example) always end up with a better cable? If the actual cable made a difference, then surely over the years with thousands of audiophiles listening intently to these cables, a consistency would have appeared such as braided copper cable sounds the best.

post #55 of 170

I think the real question is "Can we really hear the difference?" 

Between the best cable, solder, etc... against the worst, we probably can.

But against good & very good? I cannot, but that does not mean no one else can.

smily_headphones1.gif

post #56 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachgeek View Post

I think the real question is "Can we really hear the difference?" 

Between the best cable, solder, etc... against the worst, we probably can.

But against good & very good? I cannot, but that does not mean no one else can.

smily_headphones1.gif


"Can we really hear a difference" is indeed the issue. All we have at the moment are cable makers who make different cables and claim that they sound different, but no link between the two. What we have is equivalent to 'I worship the sun, the sun rises in the morning, so therefore my worshiping of the sun makes it rise in the morning'. I say it is wrong to suggest that "we probably can" hear the difference between the best and worst cables and that just because "I cannot... that does not mean no one else can" as that lets the sun worshipers into the argument.

post #57 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

There have been some very interesting points from Colin Wonfor and about Cardas about cable making. However, a point that Uncle Erik has repeatedly made is how come different ways of making cables, some of which are contradictory (silver vs copper for example) always end up with a better cable? If the actual cable made a difference, then surely over the years with thousands of audiophiles listening intently to these cables, a consistency would have appeared such as braided copper cable sounds the best.



But then we would all buy a common system like Naim, or Krell it the effect the cable has on the overall system, and personal taste., and pocket money, surely.

post #58 of 170

I am all for cable purchases made on image, appearance and cost, indeed it is for those reasons that cables 'sound' different.

 

What I have been looking for is evidence that there is an inherent, consistent audible difference between different cables that backs up the claims that cables sound different, let alone better. But I cannot find any any.

 

That leaves cable makers and the pro-cable side spouting bad science and we have far too much bad science as it is.

post #59 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

I am all for cable purchases made on image, appearance and cost, indeed it is for those reasons that cables 'sound' different.

 

What I have been looking for is evidence that there is an inherent, consistent audible difference between different cables that backs up the claims that cables sound different, let alone better. But I cannot find any any.

 

That leaves cable makers and the pro-cable side spouting bad science and we have far too much bad science as it is.


Agreed, but what ever you show people still think it a con, there problem. Have you checked out Max Townsend on Youtube it has some nice vids oh and just for the record I have suffered with dylexier (word blindness since childhood) so please forgive errors this site will not allow auto corrections. And it is a pain but sometimes very funny. Yes try Youtube lots of different pionts of views.

Colin

post #60 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post



Quote:

Originally Posted by myinitialsaredac View Post

 

He found issues in the dielectric storing energy as current passed and releasing it out of phase with the current. He also wanted to eliminate the vibration of the conductors as current passed. I would say that he had a goal going into the cable design. 

 

As above his major factors were matching the dielectric to the velocity of propagation of the conduction to eliminate the storing and releasing of energy out of phase

 

I apologize in advance for the hatchet job on the quote, but there are a lot of individual points.
 

"Out of phase" with what?

 

Out of phase with the original input. To explain further, the dielectric stores energy as a current passes, the problem is that if the dielectric does not re-release the energy at the same point in the waveform that it absorbed it, the energy will be released from the dielectric at a point that isn't where it was in the original current. 

 

 

Quote:
He also found a geometry for the conductors that eliminated the resonance as the current passed.

 

Given that circuit resonance's effects depends on whether the inductor and capacitor are in parallel or serial, I'm not sure how to apply this to a wire alone. Is he discussing a resonance that drops impedance or one which drops current? Do you have some measurements of this occuring within ranges appropriate to audio?

 

He literally is discussing the wire (conductor) vibrating when current moves through it. He put up this nifty little video to help illustrate:

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=49&pagestring=Current+Through+A+Cable+(video)

 

 

Quote:
Another breakthrough was to eliminate soldering of the connectors, instead he found a way to crimp forge them, about 10,000 psi of pressure. He also found that the copper purity played a role due to what he termed eddy currents. Though this is my own input, it makes sense that impurities would change the signal as the valence and conduction bands of the molecular orbitals of the crystal would be disrupted. He did not mention much about impedance during our interview.

 

Solder forms a chemical bond and seems to work very well. I'm not sure what an eddy current is, but since it's not something that appears as a problem in even the most sensitive of connectors (say, the multi-lane signals in a parallel-bus high-bandwidth interface like a PCI connecter), I'm having trouble imagining what the effect on an audio waveform might be.

 

Is solder forming a chemical bond, i.e. is it forming molecular orbitals with whatever it is applied to? I don't actually know the answer to that question but I would say that I think it is more like forging alloys in a sense where there are discreet sections of different materials that form a circuit due to contact rather than forming a new compound. 

 

Eddies are impurities or imperfections in the crystal structure. Per the eddy currents, you can take a look here and let me know what you think:

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=42&pagestring=Low+Eddy+Copper

 

It makes sense that impurities would change the MOs as I discussed previously. The effect thereby would have to be discussed in terms of how electricity actually passes. Essentially the energy in the current is absorbed by the electrons in the conductance band, the electron rises to the valence band, and then rereleases the energy as it falls into the conductance band. Yes there are multiple bands of different energy levels but that is too much for now. The energy that is rereleased is absorbed by the copper atoms/molecular structure conductance band MO that then repeats the process and the signal passes. Impurities in this crystal structure would alter the MOs thereby altering the way the current is transferred. 

 

I may be wrong but wouldn't PCI connectors be digital logic (i.e. 1s and 0s) that are error correcting? I think they also go into a buffer and are clocked out but truth be told I am not a computer expert. 

 

What affect did these "eddy currents" have on electrical waves used in audio?

 

I do not have anything but speculation as an answer to this question. It is apparent that eddies are there, it is apparent that they would have some effect in some way due to MOs. However I do not have measurements nor the education in physical chemistry to answer how it affects audio waveforms in the environment of a cable. 

 

Quote:

He discovered that drawing and annealing copper in a hydrogen filled environment (termed oxygen reducing) provided eddy-free copper. He discovered and patented the geometry that eliminated resonance of the conductors as well as the process of matching the dielectric to the velocity of propagation of the wire. Though I did not ask directly, I would assume he would say that perhaps not all of those minds were looking at audio fidelity applications.

 

Wait. So we are discussing surface deformaties? What was the measured effect of these deformations on the electrical waveform?

 

Answered above to the first question. To the second question I actually have not been provided measurements and am working just off of a chemical explanation of the impact of impurities on the MOs. Though I personally think the superconductor applications are nifty cool.gif

 


I replied in bold for ease of reading.

 

Dave

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