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Cables and Snake Oil - Please read before you are fooled! - Page 11

post #151 of 170

wouldnt make sense to spend 200 dollars on an rca when your system is only 800 dollars...

 

 

now, when your system is 20,000..., would you still connect it with free rca's?

post #152 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by sokolov91 View Post




if you can afford it... the LCD-2 imo is the one headphone to rule them all... truly. Only the people how dropped 500$ on a cable think it sounds better... whether or not this is placebo is up to you to decide.

 

I sold all my cables and stuff after doing some sobering testes myself and had a bundle to spend... take a gander at the system I managed to piece together instead. You only stand to gain from not using cables. Everything in my system is stock, be it analogue or digital, and it is world class as far I am concerned. I spent the same money, just rearranged the funds, and now I am in TOTL heaven whereas before I was stuck in mid-fi making useless upgrades like all too many.

 

Think of it this way:

 

Two head-fiers have 1000$ to spend. Head-fier A believes in cables, Head-fier B does not. Let us assume they have equal DAC/CDP.

 

Head-fier A:

 

HD 650 used/ amazing deal - ~350

Some sort of otl tube amp, chinese or used ~300

RCA interconnects 200$

Headphone recable 150 (and they have to sit within one foot of their amp because 150 could only buy 2.3 feet)

 

***Starts saving money for power cables***

 

 

Head-fier B:

 

RCA cables - used the ones included with the amp - free

amp - used M3 ~ 500$

HiFiman HE5LE ~ 500$

 

***laughs at head-fier A because he has not yet learned how to spend money properly***

 

The limitations of this example are subjective taste. The M3 and HE5LE are of higher value and are technically more competent. Does not guarantee they will sound better to the user.

 

Without the frittering of money on cables, fuses, and god knows what, you can get much more REAL hi-fi for your money.

 

 



 



Hopefully i have been following the philosophy of spending the money on the gears versus cables. My fanciest cables are some Kimber pbj that I bought years ago. I actually have a bunch of higher end
monster stuff sitting in the garage that I threw out and replaced with Blue Jean from my home theater. If I thought I could sell the Monster for enough to make it worth the hassle I would.
I got lucky on components and bought audio gd so high value for low cost. Now I am thinking grados are too over priced to play with for their sound signature and I might as well go for the LCD. I would never think to replace it's cable as it appears nice and they come in a wood box so I am sure they didn't try to cut costs on a cable.
I have always thought you can find quality parts and construction for low cost with vendors like blue jean and others. So glad I did not fall for the the hd650s don't shine until the cable gets replaced. One thread I saw a poster actually say he preferred the stock cables sound to the upgrade mod but as we know anything could have influenced that perception.

 

post #153 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by sokolov91 View Post

blah blah blah... 'that's how it started doc...' mumble... blah blah blah..... 'thanks that was therapeutic doc.'


unfortunately I'm gonna put you on my ignore list, please do likewise with me.

post #154 of 170

IMHO, it's not up to us to rationalize "anyone's" decision on where to spend $, or not. Again, this whole social justice thingy about commandeering folks one way or another should be redirected to fundamental engineering practice, e.g. system components first, cables last, (and then, it's always optional). So, I believe we should be steering folks with education, not rhetoric and heated opinion (from either side please). We all agree that the most benefit is to be gained from different flavors of core system components*.

 

*NOTE: Remember, we're only dealing with cables here, but there some folks on Head-Fi that believe--with similar passion as this heated debate--that any level matched core component, be it preamp, amp, DAC, all sound identical (including some of the older stuff on AGON you can buy for a song). If we're interested in saving folks $, our message should be more encompassing of the whole kit. 

 

 

post #155 of 170


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rdr. Seraphim View Post

Prog Rock Man. I have some similar experience, since I started out with the top line (and I mean multiple kilo-buck range IC's from different manufacturers), but eventually ending up with simpler, but I believe higher quality materials at MUCH lower cost. One of the keys for me when I was fiddling with audio in my early days as a DIY'er (a little later than my Dyanco and HK Citation kit days). All I did was clean the connectors on the back of my Quicksilver Preamp and the IC's (I tended to leave things inserted for months at a time). That really surprised the heck outta me! And actually, if you don't want to be so formal (anal-retentive), just remove and insert the RCA a few times, and viola! (For some it "amounts" to a new cable!)

 

This of course led me to believe connectors made a difference, possibly contact area, pressure, etc. Again, I always recommend to my buddies, just remove and insert a few times. (Hmm, that sounds familiar.) Also, if possible, I no longer use solder, accept where required. H. H. Scott used the wire twist connector for point to point wiring between circuit boards in it's early (60's) receivers which were solid, secure and solder free.

 

Is that what you mean? 

 

What's the URL of the "other thread." It sounds like it could be interesting.  


The other thread asking about cable construction and how it relates to differences in sound is here

 

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/533166/questions-about-how-cables-are-made-and-how-do-different-cables-sound-different

 

though with 13 views and no replies, it has not exactly started well! I was kind of expecting that as AFAIK, there is no correlation between how a cable is made and how it would sound different to another one. I mean, for example, silver is brighter sounding than copper, litz has more bass than solid core, that kind of thing.

 

I agree with what you say about keeping connections clean. A friend works for an engineering company who make their own cables as and when required and they spend all their time deciding what is the best connection and making sure it is secure and protected from the elements. As for the actual cable, so long as it is well shielded, it does not matter. We tidied his hifi/AV system's cables, some of which had been in place for years and the sound got better.

 

 

post #156 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenni View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by sokolov91 View Post

blah blah blah... 'that's how it started doc...' mumble... blah blah blah..... 'thanks that was therapeutic doc.'


unfortunately I'm gonna put you on my ignore list, please do likewise with me.



lol why would I ignore you back? Its not like I care you have "ignored me".

 

just more evidence towards ignorance being quite blissful. Enjoy!

post #157 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rdr. Seraphim View Post

IMHO, it's not up to us to rationalize "anyone's" decision on where to spend $, or not. Again, this whole social justice thingy about commandeering folks one way or another should be redirected to fundamental engineering practice, e.g. system components first, cables last, (and then, it's always optional). So, I believe we should be steering folks with education, not rhetoric and heated opinion (from either side please). We all agree that the most benefit is to be gained from different flavors of core system components*.

 

*NOTE: Remember, we're only dealing with cables here, but there some folks on Head-Fi that believe--with similar passion as this heated debate--that any level matched core component, be it preamp, amp, DAC, all sound identical (including some of the older stuff on AGON you can buy for a song). If we're interested in saving folks $, our message should be more encompassing of the whole kit. 

 

 


It is harder to quantify the value of items, other than cables, in the audio chain for various reasons. But you certainly have a point.

 

If there is evidence to all level matched gear sounds the same (which I do not think is the case if we take so simple as an example as simple as SS vs tube amps) then that should ideally be taken care off too.

However, when tackling an issue, personally I like to get the biggest, baddest, ugliest, and worst problem out of the way first, so everything else is down hill.

 

At least fancy components look nice... Cables do too, but they tend to be hidden behind the gear...

post #158 of 170

Evidence that level matched amps, solid state and valve sound the same

 

http://www.bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

 

post #159 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by endless402 View Post

wouldnt make sense to spend 200 dollars on an rca when your system is only 800 dollars...

 

 

now, when your system is 20,000..., would you still connect it with free rca's?



the value of your rig does not change the effect cabling has on it... so why not use the freebies? There is no correlation between them so I don't understand what you are trying to get at with your example.

 

Or of course you could just DIY yourself some very nice cables at a fraction the cost of boutique cables "just in case" you know?

 

post #160 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

Evidence that level matched amps, solid state and valve sound the same

 

http://www.bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

 

Hrm, very interesting read. (not done yet :P)

 

I thought tube amps were supposedly easier to spot due to even order harmonic distortion in the low end making a "fatter" sound.

 

You have any data on headphones vs speakers for listening tests? Seems headphones might be better tools due to the proximity of the ear and low distortion.

 

Does make sense though, seeing as headphones reach any useable volume in mW
 

post #161 of 170

That is true for tube amplifiers when driven into clipping, and is also part of the reason tube amplifiers sometimes sound more "powerful" than their SS counterpart with the same rated output. Below clipping some folks say that SS and tube amps sound pretty much the same. 

 

EDIT: Generally, you are correct. The distortion products of tube amplifiers is of the type that is more pleasing to the ear, even below clipping. However, it is generally low enough in level and less impacting of sound quality versus clipping.  


Edited by Rdr. Seraphim - 1/11/11 at 10:54am
post #162 of 170

Within the Head-Fi community, I think this is an excellent link as it compares amplifiers and headphone synergies: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/521988/amp-a-b-comparisons. The OP specifically states it is NOT a scientific test, but his listening results with different amplifiers of various levels, cost and otherwise, points to a similar direction the article PROG ROCK MAN (PRM) posted (excellent article by the way!) I believe I recall seeing this one. PRM, do you have the source of this article, where and when it was posted? Thanks!.


Edited by Rdr. Seraphim - 1/11/11 at 12:13pm
post #163 of 170

The article was apparently originally published in Jan 1987 in Stereo Review.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=stereo+review+do+all+amplifiers+sound+alike&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

The A - B comparisons thread seems pretty scientific to me.


Edited by Prog Rock Man - 1/11/11 at 11:32am
post #164 of 170

Thanks PROG ROCK MAN, I was guessing High Fidelity or Stereo Review. The date sounds about right too, based on the pictures of the amps. (I used to sell some of that stuff!)
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

The article was apparently originally published in Jan 1987 in Stereo Review.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=stereo+review+do+all+amplifiers+sound+alike&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

The A - B comparisons thread seems pretty scientific to me.

post #165 of 170

In Denmark there is a fairly new cable company selling high end, super expensive cables, http://www.zensati.com.

Several of their cables costs something like 20'000 Euros.

In the last year they have been revealed to buy their cables cheap from a Taiwanese cable company, Jinwei.

 

Here's some (badly translated by Google Translate) forum discussions regarding the Zensati cables in Scandinavia:

 

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifisentralen.no%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D50468.0

 

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nerds.dk%2F%3Fpage%3Dviewtopic%26t%3D5476%26postdays%3D0%26postorder%3Dasc%26start%3D0

 

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifisentralen.no%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D48024.0

 

Edit: Corrected Zensati.com address.

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