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Cables and Snake Oil - Please read before you are fooled! - Page 10

post #136 of 170

^

I doubt it's gonna happen. I reckon this is going to be recommended for a sticky.
this thread should have been moved to the science forum many posts ago, but there seem to be rules for some, and rules for others. kboe gets banned again, but you've some science's religious members arrogantly disregarding the DBT-Free Forum (I swear I can still see it in the title... or is it placebo?), but the moderator doesn't seem to notice.
oh wait! the moderator is their spiritual leader... enough said.
 
I thought politics and religious discussions were forbidden here...?
post #137 of 170

You sound bitter.

post #138 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by limpidglitch View Post

You sound bitter.



a little, maybe, but not much.

 

just keep science's members where they belong: in the science forum.

post #139 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenni View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by limpidglitch View Post

You sound bitter.



a little, maybe, but not much.

 

just keep science's members where they belong: in the science forum.

Well to be fair, if this thread is to warn people... how do you warn people if you are not in the right sub-forum?

 

If you thought: "pretty damned hard" then you are correct and that is the issue. This place it so help head-fiers and that is what is trying to be done.

 

The talk of blind testing might be banned to keep the faint of heart from being offended but that does not mean the discussion of cables being essentially worthless is as well.

 

There are numerous ways in which we can discuss and warn people of the uselessness of boutique cables without pulling out the big, sobering (and forbidden) guns like DBT.

 

Simple logic with regards to diminishing returns (or no returns in this case), audibility, and effectiveness in a hi-fi system are all perfectly valid and not banned as far as I am aware...

 

Now the problem is that when people demand irrefutable evidence, because they don't want to be wrong, (which there is even if people like to use "the ostrich tactic" and hide from it to try and make it go away) and we deliver it in spades (whereas the cable side has no objective proof at all), we are breaking "the rules". The rule is a smart one because when people get emotional, they tend not to be very logical, and debates get heated quickly. So it is a good rule, but unfortunately that makes it all to easy for people to propagate complete BS, and all to hard for those trying to be the voice of reason amidst a see of ignorance.

 

Hell, the "science cult" is just trying to save some people a few bucks. You are free to believe what you want, and wast/use your money accordingly. But please don't ruin it for the many people that will actually be helped by threads such as these.

 

And just so we are clear: Science and the appreciation of music are not some sort of opposing forces that cannot coexist.. they actually are very tightly bound and that is why we have hi-fi. The two opposing here are ignorance and emotion vs reasoning and logic and that is why there never is an end.

 

We wouldn't have the T1, HD 800 or the LCD-2, STAX or anything were it not for science... so to treat people as "followers of science" and some sort of cult is pretty ridiculous and highly ironic... I would like to hear people say this to those scientists designing the drivers for such headphones: "you can't hear what I hear" "your source isn't good enough" etc when they have the most expensive testing equipment and highly trained professionals in the world. IE they have a lifetime of experience and technical information which is supposed to be laid to waste by someones firm belief? I am sure they would LOL pretty damned hard.

 

But then again you are right... there are rules and they should be followed by all even if it is to the great disadvantage of our community as a whole.

 

In short, the reality is there is no "debate" or "war: or whatever you want to call it anyways. There is the objective and essentially "without a shadow of a doubt" proved truth. And then there is how people feel about certain things and their beliefs. There is no debate because it has been solved by all conventional and proper ways... There is only one who is correct and so there is no feud to speak of. People and their feelings cause the feud - not the "problem".

 

And finally the thing most "science" cult members (lol) must realize is that most of the people suggesting and promoting cables are doing so with genuine thoughts and beliefs... most are not ogres out to get people. They just don't know any better and they can't be blamed entirely for this... especially with all the misinformation floating about. To blame them is not fair, but to be banned from promoting the truth is not fair either.

 

post #140 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenni View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by limpidglitch View Post

You sound bitter.



a little, maybe, but not much.

 

just keep science's members where they belong: in the science forum.


What is a member of science?

One who prefer aspirin to HeadOn?

post #141 of 170

I take DBT free to mean no debating the subject as opposed to no mention of it, period. If it turns out to be no mentioning of it, then I want science only in the science section and no claims without evidence. In any case threads have started here and been moved to the science forum. 

 

I am glad that this thread has resulted in the purchase of Grado SR325 headphones instead of a cable. I take it that we all agree the sonic benefits of the Grados far out weigh the benefits of any cable? If not, please give examples of cables that make more of a difference or are better than headphones. That would be interesting as a comparison and for a price point of whether expensive cables are worthwhile.


Edited by Prog Rock Man - 1/10/11 at 7:46am
post #142 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

I take DBT free to mean no debating the subject as opposed to no mention of it, period. If it turns out to be no mentioning of it, then I want science only in the science section and no claims without evidence. In any case threads have started here and been moved to the science forum. 

 

I am glad that this thread has resulted in the purchase of Grado SR325 headphones instead of a cable. I take it that we all agree the sonic benefits of the Grados far out weigh the benefits of any cable? If not, please give examples of cables that make more of a difference or are better than headphones. That would be interesting as a comparison and for a price point of whether expensive cables are worthwhile.


Uh oh folks! He is asking for REAL proof! HIT THE DECK *SLAMS FACE INTO DIRT TO MAKE THE CRAZY MAN GO AWAY*

post #143 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

I take DBT free to mean no debating the subject as opposed to no mention of it, period. If it turns out to be no mentioning of it, then I want science only in the science section and no claims without evidence. In any case threads have started here and been moved to the science forum. 

 

I am glad that this thread has resulted in the purchase of Grado SR325 headphones instead of a cable. I take it that we all agree the sonic benefits of the Grados far out weigh the benefits of any cable? If not, please give examples of cables that make more of a difference or are better than headphones. That would be interesting as a comparison and for a price point of whether expensive cables are worthwhile.

 

Thanks again to this thread for the saving me some money.  Off topic:  I havent purchased SR325s yet due to starting to drool over the LCD-2 and strongly considering it.  On topic:  Was shopping around for an LCD-2 and discovered that an particular vendor's mod cable for the LCD-2 cost $500.  I appreciate the aesthetics of a nicely hand made cable but I do not understand how a copper cable (materials) can cost so much even when considering labor.  For example I bought a headphone extension cable that is 18 awg and nicely made by DeMarzio.  I know now that I probaly spent too much (just over $100 versus maybe $35) but I appreciate the aesthetics of the well made cable and can live with it.  The point is in terms of raw materials and labor how can a cable cost $500 that has approximately the same mass in terms of materials, labor and even aesthetic as a $100 cable?  Hype.


Edited by mtntrance - 1/10/11 at 10:27am
post #144 of 170

You might want to head over the LCD forum for discussions on what the cable does for the overall sound quality. However, be aware that virtually everyone over there with the cable upgrade believe it is a significant benefit. So, if you've already made up your mind "that cables don't make a difference," then just go stock. 

 

EDIT: You could also head over to the DIY forum for some ideas on cost reduction using similar wire. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtntrance View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

I take DBT free to mean no debating the subject as opposed to no mention of it, period. If it turns out to be no mentioning of it, then I want science only in the science section and no claims without evidence. In any case threads have started here and been moved to the science forum. 

 

I am glad that this thread has resulted in the purchase of Grado SR325 headphones instead of a cable. I take it that we all agree the sonic benefits of the Grados far out weigh the benefits of any cable? If not, please give examples of cables that make more of a difference or are better than headphones. That would be interesting as a comparison and for a price point of whether expensive cables are worthwhile.

 

Thanks again to this thread for the saving me some money.  Off topic:  I havent purchased SR325s yet due to starting to drool over the LCD-2 and strongly considering it.  On topic:  Was shopping around for an LCD-2 and discovered that an particular vendor's mod cable for the LCD-2 cost $500.  I appreciate the aesthetics of a nicely hand made cable but I do not understand how a copper cable (materials) can cost so much even when considering labor.  For example I bought a headphone extension cable that is 18 awg and nicely made by DeMarzio.  I know now that I probaly spent too much (just over $100 versus maybe $35) but I appreciate the aesthetics of the well made cable and can live with it.  The point is in terms of raw materials and labor how can a cable cost $500 that has approximately the same mass in terms of materials, labor and even aesthetic as a $100 cable?  Hype.


Edited by Rdr. Seraphim - 1/10/11 at 11:59am
post #145 of 170

All I want to know is what it is in a cable that makes one sound different from another. Is it resistance, capacitance or inductance? Or is it some other electrical property? I ask out of curiosity and with an open mind which has previously changed its stance and is prepared to do so again.


Edited by Prog Rock Man - 1/10/11 at 11:15am
post #146 of 170

It's a rhetorical question. I believe you have already answered the question to your satisfaction. 

post #147 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rdr. Seraphim View Post

It's a rhetorical question. I believe you have already answered the question to your satisfaction. 


Not at all and a new thread started asking about how cables are made and how that affects the overall sound out of a hifi. Since sound quality differences are actually caused by a cable, then there are reasons for that and I would like to know what they are.

 

I have gone through various brands of cable such as QED, Russ Andrews, Kimber, SHB and then I made my own using Van Damme cable, standard lead based solder and Neutrick Rean phonos. Some how I have made cables that sound just as good as the ones made by actual audio companies at much greater expense. How did I do that?

post #148 of 170

Prog Rock Man. I have some similar experience, since I started out with the top line (and I mean multiple kilo-buck range IC's from different manufacturers), but eventually ending up with simpler, but I believe higher quality materials at MUCH lower cost. One of the keys for me when I was fiddling with audio in my early days as a DIY'er (a little later than my Dyanco and HK Citation kit days). All I did was clean the connectors on the back of my Quicksilver Preamp and the IC's (I tended to leave things inserted for months at a time). That really surprised the heck outta me! And actually, if you don't want to be so formal (anal-retentive), just remove and insert the RCA a few times, and viola! (For some it "amounts" to a new cable!)

 

This of course led me to believe connectors made a difference, possibly contact area, pressure, etc. Again, I always recommend to my buddies, just remove and insert a few times. (Hmm, that sounds familiar.) Also, if possible, I no longer use solder, accept where required. H. H. Scott used the wire twist connector for point to point wiring between circuit boards in it's early (60's) receivers which were solid, secure and solder free.

 

Is that what you mean? 

 

What's the URL of the "other thread." It sounds like it could be interesting.  

post #149 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtntrance View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

I take DBT free to mean no debating the subject as opposed to no mention of it, period. If it turns out to be no mentioning of it, then I want science only in the science section and no claims without evidence. In any case threads have started here and been moved to the science forum. 

 

I am glad that this thread has resulted in the purchase of Grado SR325 headphones instead of a cable. I take it that we all agree the sonic benefits of the Grados far out weigh the benefits of any cable? If not, please give examples of cables that make more of a difference or are better than headphones. That would be interesting as a comparison and for a price point of whether expensive cables are worthwhile.

 

Thanks again to this thread for the saving me some money.  Off topic:  I havent purchased SR325s yet due to starting to drool over the LCD-2 and strongly considering it.  On topic:  Was shopping around for an LCD-2 and discovered that an particular vendor's mod cable for the LCD-2 cost $500.  I appreciate the aesthetics of a nicely hand made cable but I do not understand how a copper cable (materials) can cost so much even when considering labor.  For example I bought a headphone extension cable that is 18 awg and nicely made by DeMarzio.  I know now that I probaly spent too much (just over $100 versus maybe $35) but I appreciate the aesthetics of the well made cable and can live with it.  The point is in terms of raw materials and labor how can a cable cost $500 that has approximately the same mass in terms of materials, labor and even aesthetic as a $100 cable?  Hype.


if you can afford it... the LCD-2 imo is the one headphone to rule them all... truly. Only the people how dropped 500$ on a cable think it sounds better... whether or not this is placebo is up to you to decide.

 

I sold all my cables and stuff after doing some sobering testes myself and had a bundle to spend... take a gander at the system I managed to piece together instead. You only stand to gain from not using cables. Everything in my system is stock, be it analogue or digital, and it is world class as far I am concerned. I spent the same money, just rearranged the funds, and now I am in TOTL heaven whereas before I was stuck in mid-fi making useless upgrades like all too many.

 

Think of it this way:

 

Two head-fiers have 1000$ to spend. Head-fier A believes in cables, Head-fier B does not. Let us assume they have equal DAC/CDP.

 

Head-fier A:

 

HD 650 used/ amazing deal - ~350

Some sort of otl tube amp, chinese or used ~300

RCA interconnects 200$

Headphone recable 150 (and they have to sit within one foot of their amp because 150 could only buy 2.3 feet)

 

***Starts saving money for power cables***

 

 

Head-fier B:

 

RCA cables - used the ones included with the amp - free

amp - used M3 ~ 500$

HiFiman HE5LE ~ 500$

 

***laughs at head-fier A because he has not yet learned how to spend money properly***

 

The limitations of this example are subjective taste. The M3 and HE5LE are of higher value and are technically more competent. Does not guarantee they will sound better to the user.

 

Without the frittering of money on cables, fuses, and god knows what, you can get much more REAL hi-fi for your money.

 

 

post #150 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

All I want to know is what it is in a cable that makes one sound different from another. Is it resistance, capacitance or inductance? Or is it some other electrical property? I ask out of curiosity and with an open mind which has previously changed its stance and is prepared to do so again.



Actually it's not a rhetorical question.

 

Here's a story I read from a sound engineer writing in Guitar Player magazine back in the early 90s. Apologies for any inaccuracies due to the passage of time.

Basically, BB King used to just turn up to gigs and plug his guitar (Lucille?) into his amp using an old 40 ft cord that enabled him to walk around the stage.

Sometime in the late 80s his show started using wireless so the 40 ft cable was shelved for two 2 ft cables and a wireless transmitter between them.

BB didn't like this as his guitar's sound had very subtly changed. Initially the sound engineer tried different types of transmitter. Unfortunately the difference was still there.

Then he stuck the 40 ft cable back between the receiver and the amp and the sound was back and BB King was happy.

 

The old 40ft cable was adding capacitance, resistance and inductance. Essentially it was acting as one rudimentary LPF (low pass filter).

 

So yes cables can change your sound, but with most systems using a lot less than 40ft to connect components you just aren't going to hear this LPF effect which is why people just can't pick it up in double blind testing. Also don't forget that there is a big difference between hi-fi components putting out line level signals or many watts of power vs the millivolts of a guitar signal (~250-300 millivolts for a PAF) that gets distorted by a guitar amplifier.


Edited by Slackboy72 - 1/10/11 at 3:21pm
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