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Grado Fan Club! - Page 509

post #7621 of 18535

i have heard disagreements about things like cables and power supplies, whether thay make a difference or not.

 

that said, the highlighted sentence and the one that follows immediately above seem to have almost opposing connotations.

 

expectation bias implies doesn't exist and is in people's heads...

 

to each their own implies honoring the fact that other people may have different experiences than us.

 

i don't know if i will be trying fancy/expensive cables or power supplies. if i did, and couldn't hear a massive difference, i wouldn't assume that if other people claim to hear things i can't, they are probably "wrong".

 

i can see the flip side of this, and if cables/power supplies DON'T make a difference, somebody declaring the emperor has no clothes, albeit probably unpopular (you mean that stuff i spent a lot of money on is superfluous?!?!), could actually provide a community service and help save money.

 

i remember peer pressure pschology experiments which i found to be shocking (no pun intended in case of milgram - but more to the point, i'm thinking of the ones in which a group of planted ringers could seemingly get an unsuspecting subject to ignore what he initially saw correctly and conform to a wrong "consensus" about the length relationship between two lines, same, different, whatever - i forget though if subsequent interviews revealed they actually doubted their senses or were just going along... but i think the former?)... 

 

generally though, i'm uncomfortable with the idea that if i can't hear something, it probably doesn't exist... to use another example, it seems commonplace that some might have more acute hearing and could hear a different part or more extended frequency range in either or both directions.

 

as noted, though, there would seem to be a scientific way to test whether claims to hear difference in 320 or higher "lossless" sources are real or so called expectation bias. i haven't tried to explore this kind of sonic experimentation, if it has been done, but would be interested if anybody has any cites or references (of course, if some clearly can hear a difference, they may not have been motivated to research something that is to them self-evident, like it may not occur to a fish whether water was real or not)... in a blindfold test, either some people can tell the difference on a consistent basis or not... if so, what is the percentage of the population?

 

but in the absence of being made aware of this kind of research, if it exists, i wouldn't assume others can't hear something just because i can't (see above, but due to my profound appreciation and respect for in some cases massive differences in perceptual acuity in the population, and what defines the range of possible human experience... which may, and probably does, exceed my own, in some cases, perceptually, ie - sonically/acoustically speaking).      


Edited by woophoria - 6/15/13 at 9:36am
post #7622 of 18535
Here we go again? Have I done something wrong?

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post #7623 of 18535
Quote:
Originally Posted by woophoria View Post

i have heard disagreements about things like cables and power supplies, whether thay make a difference or not.

 

that said, the highlighted sentence and the one that follows immediately above seem to have almost opposing connotations.

 

expectation bias implies doesn't exist and is in people's heads...

 

to each their own implies honoring the fact that other people may have different experiences than us.

 

i don't know if i will be trying fancy/expensive cables or power supplies. if i did, and couldn't hear a massive difference, i wouldn't assume that if other people claim to hear things i can't, they are probably "wrong".

 

i can see the flip side of this, and if cables/power supplies DON'T make a difference, somebody declaring the emperor has no clothes, albeit probably unpopular (you mean that stuff i spent a lot of money on is superfluous?!?!), could actually provide a community service and help save money.

 

i remember peer pressure pschology experiments which i found to be shocking (no pun intended in case of milgram - but more to the point, i'm thinking of the ones in which a group of planted ringers could seemingly get an unsuspecting subject to ignore what he initially saw correctly and conform to a wrong "consensus" about the length relationship between two lines, same, different, whatever - i forget though if subsequent interviews revealed they actually doubted their senses or were just going along... but i think the former?)... 

 

generally though, i'm uncomfortable with the idea that if i can't hear something, it probably doesn't exist... to use another example, it seems commonplace that some might have more acute hearing and could hear a different part or more extended frequency range in either or both directions.

 

as noted, though, there would seem to be a scientific way to test whether claims to hear difference in 320 or higher "lossless" sources are real or so called expectation bias. i haven't tried to explore this kind of sonic experimentation, if it has been done, but would be interested if anybody has any cites or references (of course, if some clearly can hear a difference, they may not have been motivated to research something that is to them self-evident, like it may not occur to a fish whether water was real or not)... in a blindfold test, either some people can tell the difference on a consistent basis or not... if so, what is the percentage of the population?

 

but in the absence of being made aware of this kind of research, if it exists, i wouldn't assume others can't hear something just because i can't (see above, but due to my profound appreciation and respect for in some cases massive differences in perceptual acuity in the population, and what defines the range of possible human experience... which may, and probably does, exceed my own, in some cases, perceptually, ie - sonically/acoustically speaking).      


There were some tests a few years back on head-fi where someone used a spectrogram to analyze lossless and v0. The compression artifacts were far above the range of human hearing, supporting that lossless and raw formats are empirically indistinguishable from a good v0 encoding. It got derailed quickly, and faded in to obscurity.

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post #7624 of 18535
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalT View Post
There were some tests a few years back on head-fi where someone used a spectrogram to analyze lossless and v0. The compression artifacts were far above the range of human hearing, supporting that lossless and raw formats are empirically indistinguishable from a good v0 encoding. It got derailed quickly, and faded in to obscurity.

Ah dude, you can argue your case all you want, but the majority of people here can hear a difference. As I said in my post I could tell that there was compression on the album even though I thought I ripped it in lossless. Even if something is outside of measured human hearing, it still affects us, even if it's subconsciously. I don't think we'll ever be able to accurately study human hearing, because it's so subjective and variable. It's amazing though.

 

EDIT: Sorry for responding to troll posts. Back on topic! So, how 'bout them Grados? rolleyes.gif

post #7625 of 18535
Just bought my first set of grado sr60i. Planning on picking up some l cush from amazon and saw ear zonk brand cushions as an alternative. Anyone using these?

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post #7626 of 18535
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalT View Post


There were some tests a few years back on head-fi where someone used a spectrogram to analyze lossless and v0. The compression artifacts were far above the range of human hearing, supporting that lossless and raw formats are empirically indistinguishable from a good v0 encoding. It got derailed quickly, and faded in to obscurity.

Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

http://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/13/03/22/178213/can-you-really-hear-the-difference-between-lossless-lossy-audio

 

above link to slashdot first hit after simply googling can you hear difference between lossless and lossy mp3, an interesting discussion with a range of opinions... it in turn linked to below authoritative sounding article (i'm not an audio/recording engineer or codec designer), questioning 24/192...   

 

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html


Edited by woophoria - 6/15/13 at 11:54am
post #7627 of 18535
Quote:
Originally Posted by alrgeez View Post

Just bought my first set of grado sr60i. Planning on picking up some l cush from amazon and saw ear zonk brand cushions as an alternative. Anyone using these?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

All my Grados have their stock pads, but congrats on grabbing one of the greatest headphones of all time :)

post #7628 of 18535
Quote:
Originally Posted by woophoria View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalT View Post


There were some tests a few years back on head-fi where someone used a spectrogram to analyze lossless and v0. The compression artifacts were far above the range of human hearing, supporting that lossless and raw formats are empirically indistinguishable from a good v0 encoding. It got derailed quickly, and faded in to obscurity.

Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

http://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/13/03/22/178213/can-you-really-hear-the-difference-between-lossless-lossy-audio

 

above link to slashdot first hit after simply googling can you hear difference between lossless and lossy mp3, an interesting discussion with a range of opinions... it in turn linked to below authoritative sounding article (i'm not an audio/recording engineer or codec designer), questioning 24/192...   

 

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html


Yeah I remember reading these. It was interesting reading skeptics even calling 24/192 in to question.

I love head-fi and it's community, I just wish people would be willing to be a little more skeptical about things.

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post #7629 of 18535
Quote:
Originally Posted by wes008 View Post

Ah dude, you can argue your case all you want, but the majority of people here can hear a difference. As I said in my post I could tell that there was compression on the album even though I thought I ripped it in lossless. Even if something is outside of measured human hearing, it still affects us, even if it's subconsciously. I don't think we'll ever be able to accurately study human hearing, because it's so subjective and variable. It's amazing though.

 

EDIT: Sorry for responding to troll posts. Back on topic! So, how 'bout them Grados? rolleyes.gif

 

Wasn't going to post in this little discussion until I read this.  Actually empirical evidence suggests that most people (with most music) can't hear a difference between properly encoded aac256 / mp3 320 and lossless - if volume matched, from same source and encoded properly.  There are a few who can - but the seem to be in the minority rather than the majority.  Also - even those in the minority really struggle with most music (there are some killer tracks that are easier).

 

I'd really suggest you read this link (http://www.head-fi.org/t/655879/setting-up-an-abx-test-simple-guide-to-ripping-tagging-transcoding- it's a how-to set-up an abx) and test for yourself - if you are really interested.  It could change your mind and at least broaden your understanding of how minute the differences are.

 

There is really no right or wrong with this - you either can notice a difference or you can't.  I can't - and I have no issue with that.  Whenever tests have been put up on Head-fi and abx logs requested - it always gets really vocal - but unsurprisingly not many logs get posted.  The reason is pretty obvious.  It's actually really hard to tell the difference.

 

One final word - assuming CrystalT is a troll is really bad form.  So he has a different opinion - is it necessary to now apply an unjust label?   I personally disagree with him regarding his views on Grados vs the competition.  I think it's a sound you either love or you don't.  Sadly I recently sold my woodied SR325is - and I really miss them already.  I loved the Grado house sound.  But everyone is different.  That IMO is something to be celebrated and makes for some interesting topics of discussion.  It's not something to be derided .....

post #7630 of 18535
Im a she. XD

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post #7631 of 18535
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalT View Post

Im a she. XD

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lol

post #7632 of 18535

You hang in there CrystalT. I knew you were a she the whole time. I got your back.

 

There needs to be room for a variety of views without hating. Has anyone noticed how US politics is going these days???!

 

It's OK to be a contrarian. You're views may diverge from the groupthink. They may diverge with mine. I love my 225i's and I can hear a different from sources. But, they are YOUR OPINIONS....I respect that...and being an optimist, my only assumption is that you are coming from a real place.

 

I always root for the underdog. Let Crystal have her views. Like the person at the party who you completely disagree with.....give them a little space. Maybe Crystal likes to stir the pot. I can dig that. It's all  good. Chill people....

 

 

My two cents.

post #7633 of 18535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooko View Post

 

Wasn't going to post in this little discussion until I read this.  Actually empirical evidence suggests that most people (with most music) can't hear a difference between properly encoded aac256 / mp3 320 and lossless - if volume matched, from same source and encoded properly.  There are a few who can - but the seem to be in the minority rather than the majority.  Also - even those in the minority really struggle with most music (there are some killer tracks that are easier).

 

I'd really suggest you read this link (http://www.head-fi.org/t/655879/setting-up-an-abx-test-simple-guide-to-ripping-tagging-transcoding- it's a how-to set-up an abx) and test for yourself - if you are really interested.  It could change your mind and at least broaden your understanding of how minute the differences are.

 

There is really no right or wrong with this - you either can notice a difference or you can't.  I can't - and I have no issue with that.  Whenever tests have been put up on Head-fi and abx logs requested - it always gets really vocal - but unsurprisingly not many logs get posted.  The reason is pretty obvious.  It's actually really hard to tell the difference.

 

One final word - assuming CrystalT is a troll is really bad form.  So he has a different opinion - is it necessary to now apply an unjust label?   I personally disagree with him regarding his views on Grados vs the competition.  I think it's a sound you either love or you don't.  Sadly I recently sold my woodied SR325is - and I really miss them already.  I loved the Grado house sound.  But everyone is different.  That IMO is something to be celebrated and makes for some interesting topics of discussion.  It's not something to be derided .....

Did you ever notice that this debate goes on and on and on and on.  Multiple topics, multiple threads, multiple forums.  The endless battle of objectivist vs. subjectivist.

 

It seems to me that scientifically, this is a meaningless debate. There is very little verifiable, empirical evidence one way or the other.  And before the science crowd scoffs at that statement, I have to point out that we are dealing with the psychology of perception.   The way our brains interact with sound, from the ability to 'fill in' a missing fundamental and still perceive the note, to the effect that experience has on the auditory cortex and its ability to detect differences in pitch, timbre, and other properties of sound, make it extremely difficult to come to a definitive conclusion to the debate.

 

Training and experience change our ability to discern differences in sound quality between different sampling rates. That is just the way that the auditory cortex operates, being a plastic and 'learning' part of the brain. This may also apply to cables, amps, and DACs.  Although I myself am skeptical about cables.

 

Double-blind tests are, by their very nature, a biased, unnatural and tainted procedure.  The very act of consciously participating in a double-blind alters the perception of the event.  A person deliberately focuses attention on minutia they otherwise would not commit their consciousness to detect.  This alters the perception of the experience, and some would argue invalidates the outcome.

post #7634 of 18535
Quote:
Originally Posted by swspiers View Post

Did you ever notice that this debate goes on and on and on and on.  Multiple topics, multiple threads, multiple forums.  The endless battle of objectivist vs. subjectivist.

 

It seems to me that scientifically, this is a meaningless debate. There is very little verifiable, empirical evidence one way or the other.  And before the science crowd scoffs at that statement, I have to point out that we are dealing with the psychology of perception.   The way our brains interact with sound, from the ability to 'fill in' a missing fundamental and still perceive the note, to the effect that experience has on the auditory cortex and its ability to detect differences in pitch, timbre, and other properties of sound, make it extremely difficult to come to a definitive conclusion to the debate.

 

Training and experience change our ability to discern differences in sound quality between different sampling rates. That is just the way that the auditory cortex operates, being a plastic and 'learning' part of the brain. This may also apply to cables, amps, and DACs.  Although I myself am skeptical about cables.

 

Double-blind tests are, by their very nature, a biased, unnatural and tainted procedure.  The very act of consciously participating in a double-blind alters the perception of the event.  A person deliberately focuses attention on minutia they otherwise would not commit their consciousness to detect.  This alters the perception of the experience, and some would argue invalidates the outcome.

 

All I'm suggesting is that before one 'scoffs' (as so many do) and make the claim that they can tell the difference .... that they test themselves.  I'm also suggesting that the ability to differentiate depends on the individual - but evidence suggests that most people cannot tell the difference between well transcoded high bitrate lossy and lossless (especially aac).  In this case - the comments that wes008 made to CrystalT were uncalled for.

 

But anyway - this thread is a Grado fan club - and this is going OT.

post #7635 of 18535

Hey Brooko,

 

I totally support what you wrote, and I applaud what you wrote about Crystal.

 

Now- back to Grado's.  I finally got to spend some quality time with my 225i's.  The more I get used to their presentation, the more I like them.  After a while, I started to forget I was listening to headphones, and just enjoyed whatever source I had on.  I'm really impressed, and glad I didn't sell them a few months ago.  I just need to finish school so I have more time to listen.  In any case, they did great with everything I threw at them, from DVD-Audio, to lossless files to good ol 'Redbook.  I also listened to a strange binaural recording I have from the Society of Sound of a guy doing some hipster poetry reading. They were truly amazing!

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