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Grado Fan Club! - Page 412

post #6166 of 7433
1/15/13 at 10:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelostMIDrange View Post

yes, we could separate them into 25 categories if we wanted. but again in the interest of getting back to basics, I wonder if 2 wouldn't do it. Those that are damped by the cup (PS,GS) and those that aren't (RS, SR). Dead and alive if you will. Without the negative connotation of dead of the positive of alive. Let's assume both are valid ways to deliver grado goodness.

Can't agree - sorry. Firstly I can't agree because of the whole "damped by the cup and not" thing (both based on objective measurements and subjective listening - I find that most discussion about "damping" tend to go the way of catch-all anyways), and secondly because the SR and RS are quite different. PS-500 are reportedly different still (from everything; you'd have to ask someone who has one of the 1000 series cans as the PS-500 for more specifics though). You could sell me on the SR-60 through SR-225 (or 325) being relatively similar, and with higher-up models being improvements as you move up. The RS line being a different presentation to those, and the other three standing apart on their own. But trying to condense everything from the SR to the RS-1 into one box, and the GSK, PS-500, and PSK into another box is just too over-generalized. It doesn't recognize the relative diversity of the Grado line-up, and I think in part is responsible for a lot of the general confusion that new Grado customers are faced with (where you get the "no they're all a ripoff, the SR-60 is the same headphone, it's the same!" rantings).

Really, I'm not sure what the recent fascination with trying to over-generalize and categorize *everything* is (and I know you're probably take a broadside where you don't deserve it - I know we've chatted in the past and I have a rough idea of where you're coming from), but I think it really needs to end. It doesn't solve anything for anyone, and at the worst it may botch up someone's quest for a new headphone.
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post #6167 of 7433
1/15/13 at 10:17pm

perhaps...... I certainly don't want to confuse anyone. It's hard enough to find the right headphone. But I wouldn't go so far as to say any line of thought 'needs to end'. i can say you've successfully driven this discussion to a grinding halt though. No worries. I'll continue it in my own mind with an alter ego who also dislikes over generalizations

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post #6168 of 7433
1/15/13 at 10:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post


. Some people prefer the larger sound-stage, some don't, it's really a personal preference when it comes down to it. And that's what's neat about Grado's top end; they aren't just continuous improvements, they're all somewhat unique, so you both get to have the signature Grado sound, but with one of four (five?) distinct flavors. smily_headphones1.gif

 

I think this is spot-on....case in point, although I love both my GS1ks and PS-500s, if forced to choose I'd pick the 500s. Although the GS1ks were nearly twice as expensive, and they are beautiful headphones, I'd agree 100% that they are closer to being, as you said, different flavors instead of being two points along a continuum. I'm quite certain that when I have the opportunity to pick up some RS-1s, they will follow suit and be another flavor, not necessarily better or worse than either of the others. 

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post #6169 of 7433
1/16/13 at 5:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post


RS-1i. I like the intimate/close-up presentation they provide along with their overall tonal balance (the bass and treble is basically perfect as far as dynamic headphones are concerned imho - not too much, not too little, just right). Sure, the bigger Grados have a bigger stage, and the SR-325 are more up-front, but I like where the RS-1 are just set in that Goldilocks zone (at least imho) pretty much across the board. When listening to them I don't have a "I wish..." or "I would change..." thought about them. They just "fit" precisely, at least for me.

This is how I feel about my Rs2's!....damn, I guess eventually I'm gonna have to get my hands on a pair to compare them(rs1).

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post #6170 of 7433
1/16/13 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post


I would entirely disagree with you on the basis that electrical damping is essentially a fantasy (go ahead and tell me I'm wrong, and then go ahead and tell JBL, McIntosh, BK Butler, Rod Elliot, QSC, Accuphase, and so on that they're all wrong too). Damping is primarily (like 99%) a mechanical feature, and Grados rely on nothing but the driver itself (more or less) for this (and their drivers are good; I'll give you that); if you actually reviewed the CSDs you're blindly referencing (and you can actually go beyond purrin's measurements, and go look at CSDs from He&Bi and GE too), most of them (being Grado models) exhibit ringing in the upper treble (and FR and IR will also show this) - and believe it or not, some people just don't like bright cans that have resonance artefacts. And that ringing isn't really hard to predict based on the enclosure design. If you want to look at a "singularly well damped" example of a headphone, the Koss Pro4/A and 4/AA are good candidates. Most 'stats will also put up a very clean CSD too (because the drivers are extremely well controlled). They sound very different from Grados. And no, I'm not saying ringing is a bad thing by any means here (even purrin makes the comment that the RS-1 "look worse than they sound" on measurements). It's part of their coloration and their flair - and it doesn't suit everyone.

Their impedance is very stable, so changes in Zout won't result in any significant FR changes unless you increase Zout substantially (which will act on the bass region where the impedance peak is; here's a great article on the topic: http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=KB_Columns&document_srl=1389) - what's really quite disturbing about your argument is in one hand you're taking the modern marketing line of DF as pushed by makers like Crown and Anthem (who are both miserable shills with a history of saying or doing anything just to close a sale), but you're then using that fallacy to argue against itself (and saying that DF is "bad'). Sure, high Zout *can* be a good thing depending on overall system Q (which is an unknown here), but we'd be talking about LF response based on the impedance of the Grado drivers (it would be most pronounced with the GSK and PSK). Basically you'd be talking about a slight bump to the LF as Zout went up; I can tell you from experience that going between 2 and 500R doesn't do much of anything, even with the GSK. As far as what happens if you over-damp (which you're not gonna do without physical modification) - it should not ever produce a "harsh" or "tizzy" sound (because that would be a result of ringing, which critical damping will prevent...) - it'll just be over-damped. And at that point they'll just sound dead and lifeless. So in summary, *IF* DF were worth phoning home about, it would actually REDUCE the harsh/tizzy sound (by better controlling the driver's movement), and decreasing it would decrease damping (which would increase ringing and tizziness (like I said, your argument is logically troubling)) - now of course in the real world that doesn't hold up, because DF isn't worth phoning home about, and all you'll get as you run Zout up is a slight bass boost (which I could see people interpreting as a slight warmth, but we're talking very slight). If you wanted to make them ring worse, you could EQ up the treble or get really nasty and setup a filter to target and excite the points at which the enclosures already want to ring (you'd have to measure them before you could build this) and they'd sound absolutely disgusting at the end of it (why anyone would want to do this to any headphone or speaker I have no idea, but it is theoretically possible). Now, if all you're getting at is "more bass compensates for their brightness" (either because it's changing phase response, or by masking, or a combination of both) - that's fine. But we have tone controls for a reason.

They're sensitive, stable, and low impedance - they don't want for much in terms of power, and you can get the same party from more or less anything that'll give up the power they do want in a clean way. Clean and quiet is king, only because I think a lot of people will have an issue listening to hiss or pot rustling inherent on a lot of the shoddier amplifiers out there. But as gradofan pointed out - good current supply, clean tracking, and you're pretty much set. If you prefer the coloration of tubes or equalization, or whatever else - that's a personal choice, and should be left up to the end-user to explore. I think I need to qualify that my statements are being taken massively out of context though (is it because they're hurting someone's bottom line I wonder?) - my comments were specifically directed at preproman's question, and based on the knowledge that he has a (very dapper looking) pair of D7000s that I'm assuming he has suitable amplification for. Whatever is driving those will have no issue driving any Grado. If someone wants to experiment with various tubed or non-tubed products on their own, that's their choice - and I provided a list of the four manufacturers I see most commonly suggested when people for ask a good amplifier for their Grados (which usually come from a more subjective "amps are all different" crowd and do include a combination of tubed and untubed devices) - as a starting off point. Of course there are many different amplifiers out there, and people will find enjoyment in a variety of products that may not be considered "right" by the mainstream - and that's also perfectly fine (but I still think having a starting point is helpful versus "go forth and frolic" redface.gif). But I'm going to take an issue when you try to force everyone's experiences into some "grand theory of the Universe" to either explain your own experiences, or sell product.
Someone (I forget who now...) was posting about their HA540 like two days ago - just dig back a few pages. I think he said it worked out pretty well. smily_headphones1.gif

 

The great majority of headphone users probably regard Grados as "hot" and "peaky" in the highs.  You think tubes are "colored" and for some people that seems to counteract the hot peaks. (Or you suggest resorting to tone controls.)  That's the GRAND THEORY of the universe that's being espoused.  That's only because the majority of tube implementations out there are sub-standard.  It's the capacitors that make them sound that way.  It does not follow that Grados may happen to sound better in some instances because of that.  The explanation is more complex.  There is also more to over-damping than just thinking it means "dead."  An over-damped signal is not in isolation.  It combines with other signals along the way to create very bad harmonics.

 

Actually, the Sennheiser HD800 falls into this same category.  It's why a lot of people call it "bright" and have a devil of a time finding just the right amplifier combination.  Too low output impedance amplifiers can offer an explanation.  (While many people simply say, "It needs tubes.")

 

I offered an explanation based on countless amplifier designs and builds (not just from me).  It's called empirical evidence and it's pretty strong.  It's funny that one can construct a SS amp with output transformers and create much the same effect (Grados that aren't hot or tizzy) - without any glass.  Anyway, I simply disagreed ... and this is your response.

 

BTW, I made no personal observations about your profile, your supposed rationale for expressing opinions, or anything else of that nature.  I would appreciate the same consideration.  Thanks.


Edited by tomb - 1/16/13 at 6:30pm
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post #6171 of 7433
1/16/13 at 8:21pm

Last semester I accidentally left a pair of SR60i's in one of the engineering labs at my college. As it was a busy time during the semester I searched around the apartment a bit, thinking they were there and didn't come up with anything. Since I'm the main sound operator at our school I have a few different cans to listen to, so I grabbed a pair to use until my Grados would magically appear in my laundry or some other hideaway.

 

Lo and behold I ended up running to the main engineering building a couple days later to find that my SR60i's had ended up in a professor's office. But before landing on his desk, they went to 3 other professors' due to the awe that struck the lab assistant as he decided that he might as well try them out since they're just sitting around waiting to be found. All commented on how awesome they were (for the price) and one event went to amazon.com later that afternoon to purchase his own pair.

 

Sadly the SR60i's have retired to headphone heaven as they could not withstand 3 years of collegiate torture, and indeed I have moved on to Audio Technica's ATH-M50s due to their closed back sound isolation but there will always be a place in my heart for Grado cans. Maybe someday soon a pair of SR125i's will find their way home.


Edited by Bud Tudly - 1/16/13 at 8:23pm
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post #6172 of 7433
1/17/13 at 5:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post


RS-1i. I like the intimate/close-up presentation they provide along with their overall tonal balance (the bass and treble is basically perfect as far as dynamic headphones are concerned imho - not too much, not too little, just right). Sure, the bigger Grados have a bigger stage, and the SR-325 are more up-front, but I like where the RS-1 are just set in that Goldilocks zone (at least imho) pretty much across the board. When listening to them I don't have a "I wish..." or "I would change..." thought about them. They just "fit" precisely, at least for me.

I heard while the RS-1i SQ is an improve over the 325i it is not significantly very far apart. Is this true?

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post #6173 of 7433
1/17/13 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoelse View Post

I heard while the RS-1i SQ is an improve over the 325i it is not significantly very far apart. Is this true?

It's far enough to justify the price difference for me. The deeper bass and less etched treble was worth it to my ears. Throw in the added comfort with the lighter wood, the RS1i is my favourite Grado current production headphone.

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post #6174 of 7433
1/18/13 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoelse View Post

I heard while the RS-1i SQ is an improve over the 325i it is not significantly very far apart. Is this true?

I agree with MacedonianHero here. The RS-1 is more comfortable (they're either the lightest or second lightest production Grado; the SR-325 is one of the heaviest), less aggressive/abrasive on-top, and has better low-end extension. But there's a lot of "the RS-2 is almost an RS-1, and the SR-325 is almost an RS-2, the RS-1 is a ripoff" floating around - I don't know where it comes from, but I've seen that argument posed a time or two. I always question if the person saying it has heard all three. redface.gif

I know this is also somewhat petty, because it's build related, but the RS-1 are also better put together than most of the other Grados - metal gimbals, leather handband, etc; you really get the "this is our flagship" vibe from them (even if they've been leap-frogged by the GS-1000, and now PS-1000). Just based on their appearance/presentation and "on the head" or "in the hand" feel, the RS-1 earns a higher price tag; the sonic and ergonomic improvements are fantastic as well. Overall I think that yes, they're a better headphone, and that it does warranty the extra money, but it's the result of many subtle things coming together in the right proportion. If you're on a shoestring budget and want the Grado sound, the 325 are not a bad headphone (nor are the 225, which are lighter and will (imho) be more comfortable as a result) - but there is certainly improvement to be had with the RS-1. Basically what I'm trying to say here is, don't feel obligated to upgrade, but if you do, I don't think you'll feel like you've been taken for a ride.
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post #6175 of 7433
1/18/13 at 7:42am

Can anyone help with this. I have been through the following....

Beyer DT880 600ohm

AKG Q701

Beyer T90

 

Ended up with the Senn HD650... 

 

However I just got Grado PS500's... Wow! Love them. Best I have owned yet...

The Senn HD650 are just too muddy and smooth sounding to me but are not as harsh in the highs as the PS500... Not a bad thing. I like the PS500 better.

 

I am looking for a good alternative to the PS500..I am selling the Senn HD650 and want an alternative to my Grado's.. Just something maybe with a little less energy and more laid back but not foggy sounding like the HD540. Any help? Any Brand too...

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post #6176 of 7433
1/18/13 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ematthews View Post

Can anyone help with this. I have been through the following....

Beyer DT880 600ohm

AKG Q701

Beyer T90

 

Ended up with the Senn HD650... 

 

However I just got Grado PS500's... Wow! Love them. Best I have owned yet...

The Senn HD650 are just too muddy and smooth sounding to me but are not as harsh in the highs as the PS500... Not a bad thing. I like the PS500 better.

 

I am looking for a good alternative to the PS500..I am selling the Senn HD650 and want an alternative to my Grado's.. Just something maybe with a little less energy and more laid back but not foggy sounding like the HD540. Any help? Any Brand too...


HD600? Try asking in recommendations thread too

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post #6177 of 7433
1/18/13 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ematthews View Post

Can anyone help with this. I have been through the following....
Beyer DT880 600ohm
AKG Q701
Beyer T90

Ended up with the Senn HD650... 

However I just got Grado PS500's... Wow! Love them. Best I have owned yet...
The Senn HD650 are just too muddy and smooth sounding to me but are not as harsh in the highs as the PS500... Not a bad thing. I like the PS500 better.

I am looking for a good alternative to the PS500..I am selling the Senn HD650 and want an alternative to my Grado's.. Just something maybe with a little less energy and more laid back but not foggy sounding like the HD540. Any help? Any Brand too...

Kenwood KH-K1000. It's like a closed Sennheiser, with treble, and more bass, and somewhat forward mids, and less clampy, and easier to drive, and a better soundstage, and some isolation (okay I'll stop digging into the Senns, lol). Would be a nice complement to the Grados imho. Alternately you might try the Koss ESP/950 - I really like mine alongside the RS-1 (I even wrote a big long thing about it: http://www.head-fi.org/t/618153/battle-of-the-american-titans).
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post #6178 of 7433
1/18/13 at 8:14am

OK. Thanks. Thought I would come here since I am now a huge Grado fan.. Love the PS500.

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post #6179 of 7433
1/18/13 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ematthews View Post

OK. Thanks. Thought I would come here since I am now a huge Grado fan.. Love the PS500.

I know the feeling :)

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post #6180 of 7433
1/21/13 at 8:48am

could you recommend me a thin & lite + good sounding cable for grado  rs1i ? thanks

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