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Grado Fan Club! - Page 407

post #6091 of 18045
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post


Grados aren't really that picky about amplification in general - there are plenty of "crowd favorites" from both camps, but the majority of tubed amps that are liked with Grados are hybrids (or at the bare minimum OTCs), just because of the low impedance nature of Grados.

In general, Musical Fidelity, Grado, Melos, and Mapletree amplifiers tend to be crowd pleasers, but honestly any reasonably quiet and well put together amplifier will be perfectly suitable (because again, they aren't really picky, and will sound good from more or less everything). I think if you've already got an amplifier that's quiet and clean enough (channel balance, quiet pot, etc) to handle your Denons, you should be perfectly set-up for whatever Grado you'd like to try.

I disagree.  Grados are singularly well-damped.  (See some of purrin's graphs and reports on Grado decay.)  Connecting them to the current-FOTM super-low-output-impedance amplifers causes them to over-damp, resulting in the harshness and tizziness that many people cite for their dislike of Grados.  The reason Grados do well with many tube amps is not necessarily the "warmth of tubes," but that the output impedance is quite a bit higher than your run-of-the-mill low-output-impedance SS amp.  Grados do quite well on 15 ohm output impedance and higher.

 

This gets complicated to a certain extent because the low impedance of Grados causes fall-off with OTL amps as lowering the bass cut-off point results in extremely large and super-expensive output capacitors (which means shortcuts/cheaper alternatives are often used). Hybrids experience this fault, too, because many of their output buffers still require blocking caps and unless sized large enough, cause bass roll-off or phase distortion in low frequency response.

 

Bottom line, for the best sound with Grados - finding the right amplification is not necessarily so simple. 

post #6092 of 18045
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostmage View Post

Hey, I figured this would be the right place to ask this, but I was going to jump on a pair of SR60is, mainly for metal (most genres) and some rock, but then I also remembered my Q701s aren't amped with a desktop amp yet, so now it's between the 60/80is and a good amp for my 701s, on which will sound better with metal and rock. 

So my question is how 60is would match up to Q701s for this kind of stuff. I would definitely be interested in modding them, and I've modded before, so I'm not afraid to do so.

Thanks.

 

I've never heard the Q701's, so I cant comment on their SQ or signature in comparison against the Grado SR80i, but I can tell you that the Grado is an awesome headphone for your music genre's. They have crystal clear high's with very foward mid's and they are not bass heavy. IMO the bass is heard correctly, fast and tight. It is an extremely fun headphone to listen to. I don't know the design of the Q701's but the Grado is an on ear, open back design.

post #6093 of 18045
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomb View Post

I disagree.  Grados are singularly well-damped.  (See some of purrin's graphs and reports on Grado decay.)  Connecting them to the current-FOTM super-low-output-impedance amplifers causes them to over-damp, resulting in the harshness and tizziness that many people cite for their dislike of Grados.  The reason Grados do well with many tube amps is not necessarily the "warmth of tubes," but that the output impedance is quite a bit higher than your run-of-the-mill low-output-impedance SS amp.  Grados do quite well on 15 ohm output impedance and higher.

 

This gets complicated to a certain extent because the low impedance of Grados causes fall-off with OTL amps as lowering the bass cut-off point results in extremely large and super-expensive output capacitors (which means shortcuts/cheaper alternatives are often used). Hybrids experience this fault, too, because many of their output buffers still require blocking caps and unless sized large enough, cause bass roll-off or phase distortion in low frequency response.

 

Bottom line, for the best sound with Grados - finding the right amplification is not necessarily so simple. 

which amp has 15 OHM output impedance or higher ?

post #6094 of 18045
Quote:
Originally Posted by agoston.berko View Post

which amp has 15 OHM output impedance or higher ?

Most output-transformer tube amps have impedances on the low-Z side of 32 ohms or lower.  Almost any amp that uses output capacitors (OTL's, Hybrids) will have higher output impedances, too.  Again, this is why Grados get the reputation that they sound better with tube amps.  It's just that the cause ("tube warmth") is mis-interpreted.

post #6095 of 18045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cakensaur View Post

PS500's

What i liked:

The soundstage was more opened up compared to my 225i's but still remained intimate.. and thats what i want these for

I felt the bass had a little bit too much emphasis, i liked it still, but would really prefer a tad less. it came across as not bloated or muddy, but rather that more dominant than im used to with a Grado.

I liked the mids. Vocals moved me with some songs. guitars seemed aggressive, but a bit tamed (they hit me in the face, but knew when to?)

id have preferred a tiny tiny boost in treble energy, but again i liked it.

Generally i loved the ps500, there were minor faults (what headphone doesnt have them) but i was wondering if the RS2i does what the PS500 doesnt.

 

GS1000i:

I'm really sorry, its been a while since i heard it and don't feel confident commenting on its sound,

 

Since you have heard every grado, could you also highlight the main differences between RS2i and RS1i please?

 

Thanks.

 

Keep in mind that altough i have heard both, i do not own either of them, so i'm going on memory alone here. but in my opinion, compared to thr RS2is, the RS1is have deeper bass, altough not PS500s deep, a slightly wider soundstage and a bit more treble extension. and, in case you're wondering, i believe that the $200 price difference is justified in this case.

 

Hope this helps.

post #6096 of 18045

Why is that if I'm listen to Grado/Alessandro headphones I say WOW that's M-U-S-I-C !!!!!!! 

 

BUT (big BUT) if I listen to BeyerT1, SennHD800, AKG 501 - 701, Ultrasone Edition 10, ESW9, Etymotic 4S, Senn IE 80/IE 8  -> or anything else I GET BORED ->I mean WHERE IS THE MUSICALITY GONE ???

even my iGrado sounds more musical compared to Ultrasone 10 or T1 - I mean COME ON !

 

David Mahler I don't understand your "ears" and your TOP 57 LIST.

 

The only headphone I would say it's okay was Audio Technica W1000x - but it was not much better compared to iGrado.

...and I know that I should try out some STAX headphones too in the future - but pricing are ridiculous

 

every Grado sounds brilliant and every other manufacture makes very plastik'y sound. why ? my ears are healthy and I don't work for Grado.

 

akg makes fake surround sound since years. WHY?

senn make the music sound as far sounding as possible. WHY?

ultrasone makes muddy sound. WHY?

beyerdynamic makes music so lifeless. WHY?

 

If Grado would be in Europe I would not complain about this situation, but I just really wanted to share my opinion about today's headphone-industry.

Please don't say "maybe not suitable amping used" or "cables" or "different ear's"  - because I'm fed up with these answers...

the only logical reason that other "headphones" are justified nowadays are the differences between genres.

 

BUT real instrument music genres like jazz, classical, blues are much more realistic on Grados compared to other manufactures.

maybe disco music and todays pop music (big part) sounds best on fake headphones because the music today is focused on weird sounds which Grado can't handle.

 

I already owned several headphones and listened to others too, but I always conclude that Joe Grado and his company are waaaaay ahead of others.


Edited by agoston.berko - 1/11/13 at 7:07pm
post #6097 of 18045
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomb View Post

I disagree.  Grados are singularly well-damped.  (See some of purrin's graphs and reports on Grado decay.)  Connecting them to the current-FOTM super-low-output-impedance amplifers causes them to over-damp, resulting in the harshness and tizziness that many people cite for their dislike of Grados.  The reason Grados do well with many tube amps is not necessarily the "warmth of tubes," but that the output impedance is quite a bit higher than your run-of-the-mill low-output-impedance SS amp.  Grados do quite well on 15 ohm output impedance and higher.

 

This gets complicated to a certain extent because the low impedance of Grados causes fall-off with OTL amps as lowering the bass cut-off point results in extremely large and super-expensive output capacitors (which means shortcuts/cheaper alternatives are often used). Hybrids experience this fault, too, because many of their output buffers still require blocking caps and unless sized large enough, cause bass roll-off or phase distortion in low frequency response.

 

Bottom line, for the best sound with Grados - finding the right amplification is not necessarily so simple. 

 

Well... you should know... since you build some of the best (e.g.  Millett Hybrid MiniMax, etc.).  

 

And... I find Grados do match with some amps suprisingly well (e.g. some CMoys), while not so well with others (OTL tube amps, I've tried with them). I've found they mate very well with my WA6 SEm (TC tube amp), and of course my Soloist (SS amp), as well as my MiniMax (hybrid amp).  I find that with the right matching they don't have strident highs, or uncontrolled base, or small soundstage.  They seem to do better with high current output amps, and not so well with high voltage output amps - and in my instances, with low output impedence amps.

 

And... one of the best matches I've found with Grados and Denons has been the MF X-CAN v8 (hybrid) - a perfect match.  Less so with the X-CAN v3 (hybrid).  But, of course the X-CAN v8 didn't mate well with my Senns, while the X-CAN v3 did.  There must have been a dramatic design change between the two.

 

But... it is not especially easy to match Grados to an amp.  I think they get that reputation, because they're fairly efficient, and can be more easily driven... but... not necessarily with the best sound quality.  


Edited by Gradofan2 - 1/11/13 at 7:14pm
post #6098 of 18045
Quote:
Originally Posted by agoston.berko View Post

Why is that if I'm listen to Grado/Alessandro headphones I say WOW that's M-U-S-I-C !!!!!!! 

 

BUT (big BUT) if I listen to BeyerT1, SennHD800, AKG 501 - 701, Ultrasone Edition 10, ESW9, Etymotic 4S, Senn IE 80/IE 8  -> or anything else I GET BORED ->I mean WHERE IS THE MUSICALITY GONE ???

even my iGrado sounds more musical compared to Ultrasone 10 or T1 - I mean COME ON !

 

David Mahler I don't understand your "ears" and your TOP 57 LIST.

 

The only headphone I would say it's okay was Audio Technica W1000x - but it was not much better compared to iGrado.

...and I know that I should try out some STAX headphones too in the future - but pricing are ridiculous

 

every Grado sounds brilliant and every other manufacture makes very plastik'y sound. why ? my ears are healthy and I don't work for Grado.

 

akg makes fake surround sound since years. WHY?

senn make the music sound as far sounding as possible. WHY?

ultrasone makes muddy sound. WHY?

beyerdynamic makes music so lifeless. WHY?

 

If Grado would be in Europe I would not complain about this situation, but I just really wanted to share my opinion about today's headphone-industry.

Please don't say maybe not suitable amping or cables or "different ear's"  - I'm fed up with these answers...

the only logical reason that other "headphones" are justified nowadays are a few differences between genres.

 

BUT real instrument music genres like jazz, classical, blues are much more realistic on Grados compared to other manufactures.

maybe disco music and todays pop music (big part) sounds best on fake headphones because the music today is focused on weird sounds which Grado can't handle.

 

I already owned several headphones and listened to others too, but I always conclude that Joe Grado and his company are waaaaay ahead of others.

Musicality? Sorry, when listening to Grado's one is listening to John Grado's idea of that. They are far from being transparent headphones. I rather look to the music for "musicality" and look to headphones/amps/dacs for transparency to that music.  wink.gif

 

Many dig the Grado sound and I'm a big fan too. I've owned all of them from the SR-60s to the RS1s (and I've owned the RS1s twice for that matter). But they are very coloured and thus limited with certain genres of music IMO.

 

So no reason to not understand David's ears. They're just fine IMO.

post #6099 of 18045

Can anybody give me some input on how a Bellari HA540 will match with the Grado SR325is? Thank you.

post #6100 of 18045

Most part of the Grado-"coloration" is stem from the extraordinary tranducer finess produced by Joe.

It has nothing to do with unrealistic sound reproduction.

 

Other manufactures can only dream of that transparency. Sorry, but this was my observation.


Edited by agoston.berko - 1/11/13 at 7:24pm
post #6101 of 18045
Quote:
Originally Posted by agoston.berko View Post

Most part of the Grado-"coloration" is stem from the extraordinary tranducer finess produced by Joe.

Other manufactures can only dream of that transparency. Sorry, but this was my observation.

Really, so the poor deep bass response, AWOL sound staging and overly bright to piercing treble is due to "extraordinary transducer fitness"? Have you heard a Joe Grado headphone? They are quite different.

post #6102 of 18045

that's what I'm talking about. You want more bass... this in an unrealistic pretension.

just listen to Alessandro MS Pro and any symphony. It is as realistic as it can be.

no piercing treble 

and bass is there, not missing. you should try.


Edited by agoston.berko - 1/11/13 at 7:39pm
post #6103 of 18045
Quote:
Originally Posted by agoston.berko View Post

that's what I'm talking about. You want more bass... this in an unrealistic pretension.
just listen to Alessandro MS Pro and any symphony. It is as realistic as is can be.
no piercing treble 
and bass is there, not missing. you should try.

Real bass doesn't roll off at 90Hz. And the Alesandros do have less treble energy, but still way more than what is on the recording. And you have no idea about how much bass I want or think is natural.
Edited by MacedonianHero - 1/11/13 at 7:36pm
post #6104 of 18045

there are far more important factors in sound reproduction before sub-90Hz volumes.

just listen to a piano or listen to a gitar or a violin, after that you will understand what I mean about musicality.

 

 

Instrument Frequency range Hz
Piano (concert) 27.50 - 4,186.00
Bass Tuba 43.65 - 349.23
Double Bass 41.20 - 246.94
Cello 65.41 - 987.77
Viola 130.81 -1,174.00
Violin 196.00 - 3,136.00
Clarinet 164.81 - 1,567.00
Flute 261.63 - 3,349.30
French horn 110.00 - 880.00
Trombone 82.41 - 493.88
Trumpet 164.81 - 987.77
Guitar

82.41 - 880.00

 

 

Human voice

Type of voice  Frequency range Hz
Bass 87.31 - 349.23
Baritone 98.00 - 392.00
Tenor 130 - 493.88
Contralto 130.81 - 698.46
Soprano

246.94 - 1,174.70

 

only the first 4 instruments are in the sub90hz territory.


Edited by agoston.berko - 1/11/13 at 7:45pm
post #6105 of 18045

the meaning of timbre is not far away from transparent. both are under category: realistic reproduction.

so if you like the timbre it also means that the transparency will be good.

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