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Grado Fan Club! - Page 359

post #5371 of 27005
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awgd8 View Post

Thanks! My experience with RS1i on femal vocals ( high pitch singer) were piercing sharp on my iMac desktop and decent enough , but not awesome, on my Ipod touch. Both sources were unAmped and no equalizer either.
I noticed that I prefer the sound coming fom my Ipod touch than the iMac. The sound coming from the Ipod sounds natural, more body or better blend of HIgh, mids and bass. Both RS1i and PS500s prefer the Ipod source, but it was the opposite on my RS325is. I like the Rs325is on my iMac , but from Ipod touch, the sound quality seems subpar....
Really confusing....

Not sure with the SR-325 in the mix, but it isn't surprising that the iPod is better than the iMac here - it's battery powered and one of the lowest impedance/most stable outputs on the block. I'm guessing the iMac (despite Apple's claims of unobtanium) uses fairly cheap COTS hardware. ph34r.gif


I've actually heard that the iMacs are nearly bitperfect out of iTunes, and have decent output impedances. But, the iTouches are supposed to have a near 0 out impedance. I recall somewhere there being a discussion of the amount of electrical/physical dampening in Grados, and as a result, some people preferred certain models with slightly higher output impedance, as high as 20z. I don't remember the thread, but the impedance selection is dependent upon dampening, and that could make some subtle differences.

post #5372 of 27005
Quote:
Originally Posted by scootsit View Post


I've actually heard that the iMacs are nearly bitperfect out of iTunes, and have decent output impedances. But, the iTouches are supposed to have a near 0 out impedance. I recall somewhere there being a discussion of the amount of electrical/physical dampening in Grados, and as a result, some people preferred certain models with slightly higher output impedance, as high as 20z. I don't remember the thread, but the impedance selection is dependent upon dampening, and that could make some subtle differences.

Ugh, bitperfect. It's an illusion. redface.gif There will always be dropped samples, a given error rate, jitter, pre and post ringing, and so on - and once you get past "really bad" digital, you're talking about gnat hairs as an explanation for the wildebeest stampede that killed Mufasa in the first Lion King.

Anyways - output impedance has nothing to do with electrical damping (which is a fantasy), and even if it did, Grados are *extremely* stable, so it's not like you'd see much FR deviation even if you run Zsource up to the moon. At absolute worst though, all you'll see is some FR deviation on very reactive headphones that may or may not result in certain frequencies being boosted (it isn't always bass - it depends on the impedance curve).

The "idea" behind electrical damping is this belief in some magical fantasy where the amplifier with higher DF (which is lower Zsource obscured behind marketing speak) can somehow wrassle the driver to stop moving - it can't (don't believe me? crossbar a driver and push on it - does it move?). Physical damping is related to enclosure design, and open headphones by nature should have that pretty well taken care of (Grados are screwy though, and have resonance peaks despite being open - that's either in the driver, or due to it being a tube), as well as the motor's ability to start and stop (which has to do with how well the motor is designed). You can't fix this without changing physical things.

With reactive headphones, output Z does become preferential - because of how it can alter their FR. Anything less than 2 dB and you shouldn't care, but depending on the setup you can see a lot more than 2 dB. For example, I liked my HD 580 on a 470R tap a lot more than anywhere else, but the RS-1 and a few of my other stable headphones I've never really cared from amp to amp (and if Focker pops up and says "but you like that Musical Fidelity so much!" - yeah, but that's because it's *CLEAN* not because of some "it adds so much more bass" quackery). But of course that never translates for a lot of people, and they assume that if one headphone reacts in such a way, ALL headphones will react in such a way.

But what I was actually getting at, is that the audio controller on the iMac is probably some super-cheap codec that can barely swing enough current/voltage to drive a line sink, let alone a pair of headphones, and that may not even be able to put up flat FR. And the RS series are less sensitive than the Prestige cans, so you're probably pushing it to the limits and seeing not insubstantial THD. There's also the question of grounding problems that plague integrated audio controllers, which most battery-driven devices sidestep because they see a pure DC source, but you'll usually know before the music even starts if this is an issue.
post #5373 of 27005
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post


 the wildebeest stampede that killed Mufasa in the first Lion King.
 

 

I digress here, but if any of you get the chance to see the broadway version of the Lion King, you will be AMAZED at the way they portray this particular scene...I saw it ten years ago and it still stays with me as one of the most impressive things I've ever seen. 

post #5374 of 27005
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by scootsit View Post


I've actually heard that the iMacs are nearly bitperfect out of iTunes, and have decent output impedances. But, the iTouches are supposed to have a near 0 out impedance. I recall somewhere there being a discussion of the amount of electrical/physical dampening in Grados, and as a result, some people preferred certain models with slightly higher output impedance, as high as 20z. I don't remember the thread, but the impedance selection is dependent upon dampening, and that could make some subtle differences.

Ugh, bitperfect. It's an illusion. redface.gif There will always be dropped samples, a given error rate, jitter, pre and post ringing, and so on - and once you get past "really bad" digital, you're talking about gnat hairs as an explanation for the wildebeest stampede that killed Mufasa in the first Lion King.

Anyways - output impedance has nothing to do with electrical damping (which is a fantasy), and even if it did, Grados are *extremely* stable, so it's not like you'd see much FR deviation even if you run Zsource up to the moon. At absolute worst though, all you'll see is some FR deviation on very reactive headphones that may or may not result in certain frequencies being boosted (it isn't always bass - it depends on the impedance curve).

The "idea" behind electrical damping is this belief in some magical fantasy where the amplifier with higher DF (which is lower Zsource obscured behind marketing speak) can somehow wrassle the driver to stop moving - it can't (don't believe me? crossbar a driver and push on it - does it move?). Physical damping is related to enclosure design, and open headphones by nature should have that pretty well taken care of (Grados are screwy though, and have resonance peaks despite being open - that's either in the driver, or due to it being a tube), as well as the motor's ability to start and stop (which has to do with how well the motor is designed). You can't fix this without changing physical things.

With reactive headphones, output Z does become preferential - because of how it can alter their FR. Anything less than 2 dB and you shouldn't care, but depending on the setup you can see a lot more than 2 dB. For example, I liked my HD 580 on a 470R tap a lot more than anywhere else, but the RS-1 and a few of my other stable headphones I've never really cared from amp to amp (and if Focker pops up and says "but you like that Musical Fidelity so much!" - yeah, but that's because it's *CLEAN* not because of some "it adds so much more bass" quackery). But of course that never translates for a lot of people, and they assume that if one headphone reacts in such a way, ALL headphones will react in such a way.

But what I was actually getting at, is that the audio controller on the iMac is probably some super-cheap codec that can barely swing enough current/voltage to drive a line sink, let alone a pair of headphones, and that may not even be able to put up flat FR. And the RS series are less sensitive than the Prestige cans, so you're probably pushing it to the limits and seeing not insubstantial THD. There's also the question of grounding problems that plague integrated audio controllers, which most battery-driven devices sidestep because they see a pure DC source, but you'll usually know before the music even starts if this is an issue.


Thanks for the info, you filled in a lot of gaps in my understanding!

post #5375 of 27005
Quote:
Originally Posted by scootsit View Post


Thanks for the info, you filled in a lot of gaps in my understanding!

NP. smily_headphones1.gif
post #5376 of 27005

Darn iMac!   Any recommendation for a simple desktop/portable AMP/DAC ?  less than $200 ...

post #5377 of 27005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Awgd8 View Post

Darn iMac!   Any recommendation for a simple desktop/portable AMP/DAC ?  less than $200 ...

 

Audioengine D1 is my choice....it's perfect for Grados, too. 

post #5378 of 27005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Focker View Post

 

Audioengine D1 is my choice....it's perfect for Grados, too. 

Great!  I will start saving now for this... =)   Thanks!  beerchug.gif

post #5379 of 27005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Awgd8 View Post

Great!  I will start saving now for this... =)   Thanks!  beerchug.gif

 

You bet. It works great with a laptop/desktop, but I like using mine as a stand alone DAC/amp....just get yourself one of these little guys http://www.amazon.com/USB-AC-Power-Adapter-White/dp/B0038HYPZS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351830291&sr=8-1&keywords=usb+wall+adapter or somthing similar and you're good to go. 

 

Here is a good review for more info: http://www.avguide.com/review/audioengine-d1-dacheadphone-amp-playback-54

 

I was pretty surprised how well the Grados paired with it...sounded really good! 

post #5380 of 27005
If it doesn't need a DAC (and if your iMac doesn't put noise out, I doubt it does based on what you've said this far - is there a humming or buzzing noise? if no, it's good to go), Musical Fidelity V-CAN or Fiio E9. If it needs a DAC built-in, no idea. This one measures *very* well though:
http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=GR_DAC_Amp&document_srl=6825
post #5381 of 27005
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post

If it doesn't need a DAC (and if your iMac doesn't put noise out, I doubt it does based on what you've said this far - is there a humming or buzzing noise? if no, it's good to go), Musical Fidelity V-CAN or Fiio E9. If it needs a DAC built-in, no idea. This one measures *very* well though:
http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=GR_DAC_Amp&document_srl=6825


If it's just a low current issue, a simple buffer should do the trick, especially since you probably need no gain. Even a unity-gain CMoy would probably work out okay.

post #5382 of 27005
Quote:
Originally Posted by scootsit View Post


If it's just a low current issue, a simple buffer should do the trick, especially since you probably need no gain. Even a unity-gain CMoy would probably work out okay.

Fiio makes such a device, I think it costs around $30.
post #5383 of 27005

I`ll check those that you guys advised...  wink.gif

post #5384 of 27005
Quote:
Originally Posted by asmoday View Post

 

No need to stop posting, I think we all like to look at beautiful headphones!!!!

beerchug.gif

 

1000

post #5385 of 27005

Is it possible that my ms2is are having problems? For the most part  songs seem to be coming out of the right channel moreso than the left channel and its not always noticeable but when it is, it kills me on the inside. When I listen to my dt990 600ohm, the issue does not seem to appear(are they more forgiving than the ms2i?).... I am trying to figure out if I need to send my babies in for repair or maybe recable or maybe there is nothing wrong(hopefully) and its just the tracks that I listen to

 

fyi when it is that way, the music sounds like its in the right side of my head as opposed to at the ear or centralized... if that makes any sense


Edited by reivaj - 11/2/12 at 5:22pm
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