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Pure i-20 iPod/iPhone Dock as a DAC - Page 33

post #481 of 505
I'm confused - what does it mean when they say that the i-20 "re-clocks" the digital signal? Does re-clocking affect the sound? And different DACs have different clocks in them, so would the re-clocked digital output from the i-20 synergize well with certain DACs but not others? Is it possible for a DAC's clock to be "incompatible" with the i-20's clock, causing jitter?
post #482 of 505
Reviving this comment based on what just happened to mine. The dreaded "Charging is not supported for this device" message started showing up more frequently and finally became permanent this week, no matter what I did. Wiggle, clean connectors, etc. I was all set to get a new one, or the iDO, and figured I'd take it apart and see what was up. I wish I took photos, but it came apart pretty easily once the rubber bottom pad was carefully peeled off. There is a small plastic ribbon cable that snakes up to the connector board that is held in with a small disconnect/friction socket. There was corrosion on that contact surface. Cleaned it up, refastened the ribbon and set the clamp, and reassembled. Now it's rock solid and good as new. If others start experiencing this, it's worth a look at the ribbon cable inside and most likely not the external connector.
Quote:
My phones used to charge, now I get intermittent messages that "Charging is not supported for this device."  It seems to have been with the last iOS update.  Anyone have a similar experience, and if so know a workaround?

Edited by GrindingThud - 10/25/13 at 10:58am
post #483 of 505
Thanks for sharing that remedy. I use an extension cable (CableJive) between the i20 and two phones. The 3GS almost always suffers from the "charging not supported" message yet my 4S rarely does.

How easy is it to remove the rubber base?
post #484 of 505
Ummm, sorry for the woefully late reply....the thread dropped through the cracks on me. It's pretty easy to remove, held on only by a thin adhesive film. Just don't fold it or get dirty and it sticks right back on ok (mine did). If the goo film were to go all gnarly, rubber cement would do fine to hold it on. It's been a couple months now and I'm on and off the cradle several times a day.....the issue has not reoccurred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockyhill View Post

Thanks for sharing that remedy. I use an extension cable (CableJive) between the i20 and two phones. The 3GS almost always suffers from the "charging not supported" message yet my 4S rarely does.

How easy is it to remove the rubber base?
post #485 of 505

do you need a external amp for this?

post #486 of 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by jibbeb View Post
 

do you need a external amp for this?

Yes

post #487 of 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by brunk View Post
 

Yes


Which ones do you suggest. And what about amp? do you need a external amp as well? dac+amp?

post #488 of 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by jibbeb View Post
 


And what about amp? do you need a external amp as well?


I think he just answered yes - see previous post.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jibbeb View Post
 


dac+amp?

 

Only if you prefer the sound of another DAC over the simpler DAC circuit built into the Pure i20.

post #489 of 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by jibbeb View Post
 


Which ones do you suggest. And what about amp? do you need a external amp as well? dac+amp?

 

Well, you already have a DAC inside your Pure i-20. I wouldn't use another DAC, that seems kind of pointless to me. You'd be better off returning the Pure and getting the iPod jack from Apple, and plug that into a DAC.

 

There are any number of amplifiers you could use with this DAC. Personally I have tried both the Bravo V2 and the Schiit Magni with mine. I prefer the Bravo V2 because I can use a Mullard tube in it, to tone down the brightness of the Pure DAC.

post #490 of 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmustBKidn View Post
 

 

Well, you already have a DAC inside your Pure i-20. I wouldn't use another DAC, that seems kind of pointless to me.

 

Well, the Pure i20 was designed primarily as a means to extract digital audio from an iDevice and then feed that into a DAC. Now with CCK-compatible iPads and iPhones such a device seems expensive for $100, but consider the devices not compatible with this thing at the time of release. Or, heck, the iPod Classic today, if you don't want to fuss around with wireless storage to augment the microSD-allergic iDevices. Plus, you get a dock/stand - if you bought the $30 CCK and the compatible $40 dock/stand, the price gap isn't that huge. Also, consider that the next-least expensive device that can do that is the Onkyo ND-S1 at $200 then there's the Wadia 170i at $400. That's why the Pure i20 was popular (for a year, then it was all-CCK from then on, now that iOS7 enabled it on iPhones).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UmustBKidn View Post
 

 

You'd be better off returning the Pure and getting the iPod jack from Apple, and plug that into a DAC.

 

How would that even work? The iPod's (earphone) jack, which is 3.5mm phono, outputs analogue - I cannot imagine how that can feed a digital signal into a DAC.

If you mean using the data cable into a DAC, that doesn't always work. It won't work on its own with any DAC - that's precisely why the Pure i20 was produced - because there's a chip in such authorized iDevices to say, "hey, send out the audio stream." Hell, even my camera doesn't work with the CCK, regardless of what that acronym means, because RAW and Lightroom aren't Instagram-friendly; not to mention they disabled power through CCK on iOS5, then completely disabled it on iOS6.3.1. I was happy about iOS7, then my music player apps started screwing up album art. (So basically, this is why I'm using an SGS3 as a music server - no fuss use all the way)
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UmustBKidn View Post

 

There are any number of amplifiers you could use with this DAC. Personally I have tried both the Bravo V2 and the Schiit Magni with mine. I prefer the Bravo V2 because I can use a Mullard tube in it, to tone down the brightness of the Pure DAC.

 

An amp ideally should just amplify  the signal it receives for a headphone or speaker, not act as EQ. Using another DAC isn't so "pointless" given the Pure DAC's output - I've always thought many sources using the CS4398 DACs are too bright, save for the Marantz CDPs, the difference being those have very complex HDAM output circuits.

post #491 of 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac View Post
 

An amp ideally should just amplify  the signal it receives for a headphone or speaker, not act as EQ. Using another DAC isn't so "pointless" given the Pure DAC's output - I've always thought many sources using the CS4398 DACs are too bright, save for the Marantz CDPs, the difference being those have very complex HDAM output circuits.

 

I guess you've never heard of tube rolling? Curious. It has the effect of altering the character of the sound (I would not go so far as to call it EQ, but I suppose it is, after a fashion). I find it one of the more fascinating aspects of this hobby. I highly recommend it if you haven't tried it before.

 

Other folks in this thread have also suggested just using their Pure as a way to plumb the output into another DAC. I suppose you could do that. Personally, I'm the frugal sort, and I think I'd sooner invest in a different iPod DAC. But that's a personal choice. If I were going to do this all over again, I think I would try the Nuforce Icon Ido, or perhaps the HRT iStreamer instead of the Pure.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac View Post
 

How would that even work? The iPod's (earphone) jack, which is 3.5mm phono, outputs analogue - I cannot imagine how that can feed a digital signal into a DAC.

If you mean using the data cable into a DAC, that doesn't always work. It won't work on its own with any DAC - that's precisely why the Pure i20 was produced - because there's a chip in such authorized iDevices to say, "hey, send out the audio stream." Hell, even my camera doesn't work with the CCK, regardless of what that acronym means, because RAW and Lightroom aren't Instagram-friendly; not to mention they disabled power through CCK on iOS5, then completely disabled it on iOS6.3.1. I was happy about iOS7, then my music player apps started screwing up album art. (So basically, this is why I'm using an SGS3 as a music server - no fuss use all the way)
 

 

The cable linked here allows the user to extract the line-out from the iPod and feed it into an amplifier. There are numerous cables of this sort available on Amazon. I own one of these; it allows me to plumb the audio line out signal to an amplifier via RCA connectors. Works just fine for me.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac View Post
 

Well, the Pure i20 was designed primarily as a means to extract digital audio from an iDevice and then feed that into a DAC. Now with CCK-compatible iPads and iPhones such a device seems expensive for $100, but consider the devices not compatible with this thing at the time of release. Or, heck, the iPod Classic today, if you don't want to fuss around with wireless storage to augment the microSD-allergic iDevices. Plus, you get a dock/stand - if you bought the $30 CCK and the compatible $40 dock/stand, the price gap isn't that huge. Also, consider that the next-least expensive device that can do that is the Onkyo ND-S1 at $200 then there's the Wadia 170i at $400. That's why the Pure i20 was popular (for a year, then it was all-CCK from then on, now that iOS7 enabled it on iPhones).

 

 

You know, I've heard that more than once, but it's just not how the company advertises the unit (read it for yourself). There is no mention on that website about using this device purely as a dock - in fact, their ad clearly states that it contains a "High-performance 24-bit 192 KHz DAC (-105 dB signal to noise ratio, -93 dB THD+N and 2V RMS)". Nowhere can I find something that states they intend for you to bypass that high performance DAC and plumb the output to another device. Sure, you can do that if you want to, again, a personal choice. But that is not what the manufacturer states on their own website.


Edited by UmustBKidn - 12/31/13 at 12:23am
post #492 of 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmustBKidn View Post
 

 

I guess you've never heard of tube rolling? Curious. It has the effect of altering the character of the sound (I would not go so far as to call it EQ, but I suppose it is, after a fashion). I find it one of the more fascinating aspects of this hobby. I highly recommend it if you haven't tried it before.

 

I have and I don't do it. I don't even use tubes. I don't even do he same for opamps since I don't buy an amp just so I can play around with its settings. I've never even heard of anybody fudging around with Meier's Cantate (or his other amps for that matter). I prefer buying things that work right for me out of the box. It's an amplifier, not a souped-up/converted sports car deliberately made with tunable suspension and aerodynamics so it can work to my driving style and skill come track day.

A car audio set-up, though, would be the exception. You'd really have to screw around with the settings so you can get the time alignment right, since even the Audyssey et al autotuning microphones can't get that completely right (not like that mic is two microphones built into a skull wrapped in ballistics flesh).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UmustBKidn View Post
 

Other folks in this thread have also suggested just using their Pure as a way to plumb the output into another DAC. I suppose you could do that. Personally, I'm the frugal sort, and I think I'd sooner invest in a different iPod DAC. But that's a personal choice. If I were going to do this all over again, I think I would try the Nuforce Icon Ido, or perhaps the HRT iStreamer instead of the Pure.

 

Well that was the whole point of the i20 - that there aren't a lot of DACs that can extract the digital audio stream out of an iPod. And the iDo, AFAIK, only works with iTunes. Look up the specs - it has a list of compatible formats. It basically renders the iDevice connected to it as a storage and interface device, and actual processing (not just the DAC function) is probably done by the iDo in some way. For those archive their files using FLAC, that will require another library of ALACs; ditto the Wadia and Onkyo. AFAIK the iDo doesn't have this issue but I could be wrong.

 

In any case I'm of the frugal sort too and I haven't found anything other than the ODAC and HRT iStreamer to replace the built-in USB DAC on my amp, and even then the differences aren't a lot. Other sources initially sound strikingly different, but listen long enough and I can detect a lot of unnatural things they do, like entry- and midlevel CDPs that sound "bigger" initially until you notice the instruments are all over the place and you can't detect where you're supposed to be sitting in that performance relative to the performers.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UmustBKidn View Post

 

 

The cable linked here allows the user to extract the line-out from the iPod and feed it into an amplifier. There are numerous cables of this sort available on Amazon. I own one of these; it allows me to plumb the audio line out signal to an amplifier via RCA connectors. Works just fine for me.

 

Yeah but you said...         

Quote:
Originally Posted by UmustBKidn View Post
 

 

You'd be better off returning the Pure and getting the iPod jack from Apple, and plug that into a DAC.

 

...and that's what I responded to up there. The best you can do is admit you had a typo rather than assume I'm technologically ignorant.

But then again, that still requires admitting that you were wrong in some way, so I guess you would be incapable of that too.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UmustBKidn View Post

 

You know, I've heard that more than once, but it's just not how the company advertises the unit (read it for yourself). There is no mention on that website about using this device purely as a dock - in fact, their ad clearly states that it contains a "High-performance 24-bit 192 KHz DAC (-105 dB signal to noise ratio, -93 dB THD+N and 2V RMS)". Nowhere can I find something that states they intend for you to bypass that high performance DAC and plumb the output to another device. Sure, you can do that if you want to, again, a personal choice. But that is not what the manufacturer states on their own website.

Why not take your own advice? Read and look at 'em yourself. Apple doesn't advertise their iDevices as FLAC-compatible players, and shockingly enough, mine does!

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinoyman View Post
 

Optical digital audio out (S/PDIF): TOSLINK.

Coaxial digital audio out (S/PDIF): Coaxial phono.

- This makes the Pure i-20 iPod dock the more cost-effective solution* to getting the best digital sound from your dock and this is all made possible thanks to the Pure Clearsound digital tech which is used to extract digital audio from the dock through to the connected audio components.

 

*Again, this was before the CCK and before brands like Shanling got Apple-certified DACs where you get a USB-A input that needs only the standard data cable

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by yosemitesamiam View Post
 

Hey there everyone!  I just stumbled upon what looks to be a new product.  An iPod/iPhone dock that is a DAC built in.  Has digital and analogue outs, as well as video.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinoyman View Post
 

from hifi choice:

 

PURE has drastically lowered the price of digital iPod transports with the launch of its i-20, a dock with the all-important optical and coaxial outputs for connection to an external DAC�..This delivers �true hi-fi audio performance levels�, including signal�to-noise and distortion measurements.�

 

 

 

 

i think, this answers if this performs as the onkyo nd-s1 transport.

 

the answer is YES.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by daximus View Post
 

Gents, I have spoken with Pure UK via telephone regarding operating aspects for my interest and thought i'd share the greasy mechanical bits with you all...

 

The i20 takes the USB stream from digital docking compatible iPod/Phones and re-assembles the USB data packets audio content into an i2S stream internally for it's high performance D/A converter. i20 also biphase mark encodes the i2S stream for transmission via buffered SPDIF on both optical and co-axial outputs.

As I understood from the conversation the digital SPDIF output streams are re-clocked by the DSP for accuracy but otherwise are untouched and are considered to be "bit-perfect" with the source material from the iPod/phone - therefore this data stream is not manipulated for volume control by the dock - the digital source is passed on "as-is" - a faithful replica of the source - hence the "Clearsound" moniker.

The D/A output (DAC - Analogue) has volume control for user convenience but note that performance is maximised if volume is set to full as digital volume scaling has some fidelity "cost" at lower levels.

Hope this helps anyone else with the same interests as I had regarding the dock and its modus-operandi for under the hood specs...

 

Nice chaps to talk to even the first fellow who couldn't help me but quite quickly found someone who could... I like that kind of end-user service :)

 

http://yklee118.blogspot.com/2011/08/pure-i20-digital-transport-dock-for.html - "As an audio transport, many dedicated DAC modules don't support such a high resolution and as such dither the audio signal for the processor to understand.  So the player aspect of the Pure i20 comes in handy when the listener may have 24-bit/96 or 192-KHz audio files and would then want to have the highest resolution audio experience possible.  Dedicated DAC processors with the ability to process such high-resolution files tend to be very high cost since advanced jitter correction algorithms and clocks are needed."

I don't really know how else I can prove to you this does serve as a transport and if one needs it as such, that's $50 less than the iDo, especially for those who already have a DAC that they like.


Edited by ProtegeManiac - 12/31/13 at 9:25am
post #493 of 505

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac View Post

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmustBKidn View Post

 

The cable linked here allows the user to extract the line-out from the iPod and feed it into an amplifier. There are numerous cables of this sort available on Amazon. I own one of these; it allows me to plumb the audio line out signal to an amplifier via RCA connectors. Works just fine for me.

 

Yeah but you said...         

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UmustBKidn View Post
 

You'd be better off returning the Pure and getting the iPod jack from Apple, and plug that into a DAC.

 

...and that's what I responded to up there. The best you can do is admit you had a typo rather than assume I'm technologically ignorant.

But then again, that still requires admitting that you were wrong in some way, so I guess you would be incapable of that too.

 

I'm not sure where your hostility is coming from bro, but I don't choose to participate in your aggression. I have no problem admitting when I make mistakes. I just haven't made one.

 

I also don't understand what you think I'm wrong about. But hey, I don't choose to spend my time trying to figure that out either. I linked one of many apple 30-pin ipod jacks on Amazon in my post. There's no need to link all of them. I leave the exercise of finding them all to the reader.

 

My point was simply that you can choose not to use a DAC at all, and plumb the line out from the iPod into an amplifier. Sure, it won't be as clear or refined as the output from a DAC like the Pure or any other. But it's also cheaper. Whether it's worth the expense to use a Pure i-20 or some other iPod DAC is another one of those personal choices.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac View Post

 

Why not take your own advice? Read and look at 'em yourself. Apple doesn't advertise their iDevices as FLAC-compatible players, and shockingly enough, mine does!

 

I don't really know how else I can prove to you this does serve as a transport and if one needs it as such, that's $50 less than the iDo, especially for those who already have a DAC that they like.

 

I never claimed that an Apple device was a FLAC compatible player. Don't know where you got that one from. You're digging up stuff that has nothing to do with what I said.

 

Finally, I did agree that you could use the Pure i-20 as a transport. You can do that if you want to. I just don't see the point. Again, a personal thing. I think it's a waste to use the Pure as a stand.

post #494 of 505
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmustBKidn View Post
 

Quote:

 

I'm not sure where your hostility is coming from bro, but I don't choose to participate in your aggression.

I'm not being hostile, I'm just choosing from the same pool of words that you used. You used such phrases as "read it for yourself." So I just tossed it right back at ya, given in the other parts of your post you seemed to be alleging that "well it might be able to do two things, but the manufacturer didn't explicitly say so about the second (based on your reading of it), so waste of money." Again, read your posts and you'll see how the conversation developed.

 

Quote:Originally Posted by UmustBKidn View Post

 

I have no problem admitting when I make mistakes. I just haven't made one.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UmustBKidn View Post

 

I have no problem admitting when I make mistakes. I just haven't made one.

 

I also don't understand what you think I'm wrong about. But hey, I don't choose to spend my time trying to figure that out either. I linked one of many apple 30-pin ipod jacks on Amazon in my post. There's no need to link all of them. I leave the exercise of finding them all to the reader.

 

My point was simply that you can choose not to use a DAC at all, and plumb the line out from the iPod into an amplifier.

 

God, you must be kidding me. OK, I'm tired of quoting them properly, look it up there again yourself, but here's a summary:

1. You said hook up the iPod jack into a DAC (seriously, look for that up there)

2. I said it doesn't work that way
3. You allege that a cable you linked to does, and...
4. ...surprise! - it doesn't, it's an analog output cable going into an amp, then after I point that out and allege you might at least have just made a typo writing "DAC" instead of "amp"...
5. ...you try to take the high road when the best way to do that is just, maybe, admit the typo in #4

If I had any "aggression," as you called it, then at least read your posts again because you are not as infallible as you claim. I already suggested it as a typo, but the parts I posted after that suggesting you can't admit mistakes were just validated by your response here. So for what it's worth, thank you for proving me right about you.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmustBKidn View Post

 

Sure, it won't be as clear or refined as the output from a DAC like the Pure or any other. But it's also cheaper. Whether it's worth the expense to use a Pure i-20 or some other iPod DAC is another one of those personal choices.
 

Finally, I did agree that you could use the Pure i-20 as a transport. You can do that if you want to. I just don't see the point. Again, a personal thing. I think it's a waste to use the Pure as a stand.

 

 

I was not contesting the actual quality, that's for users to decide in their own set-ups for the most part. Your points (seriously, read them again up there) were that you were casting doubt on why we would use a DAC with another DAC, or if it does what I (and those other people) said it does, the manufacturer didn't claim so. Your point on whether it was costr-effective was just the one part of that, to which my response, again read it all up there, that the Pure i20 was cst-effective at the time it came out, whereas now we have the CCK and iOS7 - so basically what I'm saying is there was a time I would disagree with you, but nowadays, not really - except if one wants his device standing up on a dock, a CCK+genuine dock would only be about $30 off the price of the i20, so if having it standing up is important to one's set-up, then maybe the $30 isn't too bad. Seriously, look that up, you just need to scroll up a little bit.

 

 

------

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UmustBKidn View Post
 

Quote:

 

....but I don't choose to participate in your aggression....

 

And I regret having carried on a discussion with a bonehead who wouldn't even backtrack and read the posts that I already, and conveniently, quoted for him, and for which I have to do a summary outline for.


Edited by ProtegeManiac - 1/1/14 at 6:00am
post #495 of 505

Does ipod docks really have good inbuilt dacs in them??

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