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post #76 of 3613
Personally I'd love to see plenty of storage, or a way to drop in a large (mini)SD card. M4A, gapless and library based on tag data. Decent DAC with line level out.
post #77 of 3613

I always wanted to try a combo like Iriver H1-series with a ibasso D12 something...

is optical out better? looking forward to this.

 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfkt View Post

Hifiman and Colorfly have both (not that they're relevant players by any means). Iriver H100 has optical, not coaxial S/PDIF (same as most Minidisc players).
post #78 of 3613

hmmm..

 

well both optical and coaxial transmit a digital signal 1's and 0's, so the signal should be the same.

 

the difference that I can think of right now is the price of the cable.

 

an optical cable should be cheaper given that it does not matter if its made of cheap plastic or glass it should work the same.

 

the size on an optical cable(if mini optical conector is used) could be less(not much really) 

 

other than that I don't know if a coaxial cable could pick any type of interference that could affect the signal needing more shieldingconfused.gif (doubt it specially for the size of the cable one would need for a portable rig)

 

EDIT---

 

LOL I just went to monoprice and found that a coaxial cable is in fact cheaper than an optical cable.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie0904 View Post

I always wanted to try a combo like Iriver H1-series with a ibasso D12 something...

is optical out better? looking forward to this.

 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfkt View Post

Hifiman and Colorfly have both (not that they're relevant players by any means). Iriver H100 has optical, not coaxial S/PDIF (same as most Minidisc players).


 


Edited by wichogt - 12/18/10 at 10:05pm
post #79 of 3613
Quote:
Originally Posted by feiao View Post

we just wants to make something new and different and can make you happy! if you are already happy with some other DAP, I think you can tell us what more you want? that is the way we consider our products!


I whole-heartedly agree with James. A lot of the things people are requesting already have existing products with those features.

 

My personal problem with most portable devices is that they are so multi-functional that they can do almost anything; but not as well as others. Like iPods, they're an ok music player with cameras, but not as good as actual cameras, support movies which isn't as good as watching TV, and have WI-FI that isn't as fast as a computer. FiiO has an opportunity to make an affordable device that can rise above all others in a single category. SOUND.

 

Following the sound-first mindset; how many hours a day can one critically listen to music? Certainly not 24 hours. Why would more than that be needed? If you're listening for that long chances are it's background noise to keep you busy while multi-tasking. There are already plenty of great players that have ridiculous battery lifespans. And really, how hard is it to bring a charger with you?

 

Still in the sound-first mindset; I don't think the X3 needs massive storage. 8 gigs of FLAC is roughly what, 20-24 albums, 45 mins a piece? Especially if the battery isn't going to last you days; I don't see why one would need to bring their entire music collection with them. I'm sure the X3 will have more than this anyway. Again, there are already devices that have insane storage space.

 

Many of the best things in life come in simplicity; I believe FiiO is the perfect company to fulfill this philosophy. Take away all the things we want and leave what we need as audiophiles.

 

We, as Head-Fi'ers, can help make the X3 one monster of a MUSIC player.


Edited by Riku540 - 12/18/10 at 10:29pm
post #80 of 3613

Will it also have user replaceable batteries like the E11?

post #81 of 3613


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riku540 View Post
...

Following the sound-first mindset; how many hours a day can one critically listen to music? Certainly not 24 hours. Why would more than that be needed? If you're listening for that long chances are it's background noise to keep you busy while multi-tasking. There are already plenty of great players that have ridiculous battery lifespans. And really, how hard is it to bring a charger with you?

 

Still in the sound-first mindset; I don't think the X3 needs massive storage. 8 gigs of FLAC is roughly what, 20-24 albums, 45 mins a piece? Especially if the battery isn't going to last you days; I don't see why one would need to bring their entire music collection with them. I'm sure the X3 will have more than this anyway. Again, there are already devices that have insane storage space.

...

 

It all depends on how you intend to use your DAP. If you're not going to be near a computer to charge or transfer on what you want to listen to as you go along, it'd sure be nice to have it not run out of charge and be able to play whatever album just popped into your mind. Of course we /could/ get by with 8 hour battery life and 20 albums, but why limit ourselves on that when a bit more money can greatly raise that limit. 

Not to be contrary, but following your sort of logic one could say that Fiio need not bother making the player smaller than a netbook or weigh less than a pound since there are already DAPs small enough to fit in a coin pouch. Of course you didn't take it that far, but it's the same idea that just because it's not an issue of sound quality but rather convenience that it shouldn't be a priority. 

Everyone right now has a different vision of what their perfect portable would be. Me? I'd love a high capacity player (64GB+) with gapless playback, format support, digital and analogue line outs in addition to a headphone out... and bootable windows mobile operating system with built in wifi hardware. I got carried away at the end there (hey we're only dreaming here, right?) but I see no reason to disregard both battery and storage capacities, and think most people here would agree. We don't necessarily need 40 hours of battery life, but let's get a nice little 15ish at least, eh?
 

post #82 of 3613
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riku540 View Post


Still in the sound-first mindset; I don't think the X3 needs massive storage. 8 gigs of FLAC is roughly what, 20-24 albums, 45 mins a piece? Especially if the battery isn't going to last you days; I don't see why one would need to bring their entire music collection with them. I'm sure the X3 will have more than this anyway. Again, there are already devices that have insane storage space.

 


It's useful to carry a larger percentage of your library for a couple of reasons....1. the people who "shuffle all tracks" and 2. so that no matter what mood you are in, you have the relevant music with you.smily_headphones1.gif

post #83 of 3613
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riku540 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by feiao View Post

we just wants to make something new and different and can make you happy! if you are already happy with some other DAP, I think you can tell us what more you want? that is the way we consider our products!


I whole-heartedly agree with James. A lot of the things people are requesting already have existing products with those features.

 

My personal problem with most portable devices is that they are so multi-functional that they can do almost anything; but not as well as others. Like iPods, they're an ok music player with cameras, but not as good as actual cameras, support movies which isn't as good as watching TV, and have WI-FI that isn't as fast as a computer. FiiO has an opportunity to make an affordable device that can rise above all others in a single category. SOUND.

 

Following the sound-first mindset; how many hours a day can one critically listen to music? Certainly not 24 hours. Why would more than that be needed? If you're listening for that long chances are it's background noise to keep you busy while multi-tasking. There are already plenty of great players that have ridiculous battery lifespans. And really, how hard is it to bring a charger with you?

 

Still in the sound-first mindset; I don't think the X3 needs massive storage. 8 gigs of FLAC is roughly what, 20-24 albums, 45 mins a piece? Especially if the battery isn't going to last you days; I don't see why one would need to bring their entire music collection with them. I'm sure the X3 will have more than this anyway. Again, there are already devices that have insane storage space.

 

Many of the best things in life come in simplicity; I believe FiiO is the perfect company to fulfill this philosophy. Take away all the things we want and leave what we need as audiophiles.

 

We, as Head-Fi'ers, can help make the X3 one monster of a MUSIC player.


I see your point and agree with you at some degree, I'll just notice this:

 

- when we ask for more storage capability is not because we are able to listen every album on every charge of the DAP but because we don't know what we would like to listen at certain point and having options is nice.

 

- as you, I want a good DAP with good SQ, simple interface, good file managment(folders, tags, playlists, etc) and some audio playback related functions that make listening to music more enjoyable (gapless, the balance idea posted before, eq, sleep mode, etc..) not a multi-functional gadget that does nothing right.

 

- and the battery well, some times you go off grid, take a trip, or simply forgot to charge your DAP last night. also less charging cycles means longer battery life before replacing it.

 

and also you don't need to be 100% focused to enjoy music.

post #84 of 3613
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zida View Post

It all depends on how you intend to use your DAP. If you're not going to be near a computer to charge or transfer on what you want to listen to as you go along, it'd sure be nice to have it not run out of charge and be able to play whatever album just popped into your mind. Of course we /could/ get by with 8 hour battery life and 20 albums, but why limit ourselves on that when a bit more money can greatly raise that limit. 

Not to be contrary, but following your sort of logic one could say that Fiio need not bother making the player smaller than a netbook or weigh less than a pound since there are already DAPs small enough to fit in a coin pouch. Of course you didn't take it that far, but it's the same idea that just because it's not an issue of sound quality but rather convenience that it shouldn't be a priority. 

Everyone right now has a different vision of what their perfect portable would be. Me? I'd love a high capacity player (64GB+) with gapless playback, format support, digital and analogue line outs in addition to a headphone out... and bootable windows mobile operating system with built in wifi hardware. I got carried away at the end there (hey we're only dreaming here, right?) but I see no reason to disregard both battery and storage capacities, and think most people here would agree. We don't necessarily need 40 hours of battery life, but let's get a nice little 15ish at least, eh?


You make a lot of valid points, though I'm not talking about extremes just to talk about extremes. I did say not more than 24 hours though; so 15 is still in a very acceptable ballpark for me. I think 15-24 hours should be more than enough to hold most people over from one wall outlet to the next. Gapless playback is not at all unreasonable and I would very much prefer it; same with format support. My main concern, at least for my ideal X3, is compromises that would require significant amounts of quality to be sacrificed.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achmedisdead View Post

It's useful to carry a larger percentage of your library for a couple of reasons....1. the people who "shuffle all tracks" and 2. so that no matter what mood you are in, you have the relevant music with you.smily_headphones1.gif


... I also said there are many other players that already have this, and that I don't doubt that the X3 will have more, or even plenty more storage than that. You also have to take into account not all Head-Fi'ers or audiophiles use or even believe in lossless; 8,16, or even 32 gigs at 320kbps significantly ups the quantity of music able to be held (for the record, I'm a lossless guy; before another lossless vs lossy debate takes place). Quoting me on a single line out of context of my actual point doesn't really prove anything.


Edited by Riku540 - 12/18/10 at 11:41pm
post #85 of 3613
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie0904 View Post

I always wanted to try a combo like Iriver H1-series with a ibasso D12 something...

is optical out better? looking forward to this.

 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfkt View Post

Hifiman and Colorfly have both (not that they're relevant players by any means). Iriver H100 has optical, not coaxial S/PDIF (same as most Minidisc players).

Just to clarify, neither HifiMan or ColorFly have both coaxial-out and line-out at the same time. HifiMan has coaxial-in, USB DATA-in, USB DAC-in, Headphone-out and line-out, and I am pretty sure ColorFly doesn't have line-out at all. It has two headphone-outs (6.5mm and 3.3mm), coaxial-out, coaxial-in, and USB DATA-In.

As for RockBox, I already said in the E11 thread that it is a long shot. The firmware development need help from the company that provides the controller solution, and to use open source code requites that company to publish their own code and giving up the copyright, which is very unlikely to happen. To have a very stable platform, FiiO has chosen a company that develop hardware for big brand name, and when you are working with this level of company, they tends to have very strict rule on everything. In exchange, this company also know to provide a better firmware support since their firmware has been used on big brand name. As of why FiiO doesn't want o hire software engineers of their own, it is quite obvious: It is extremely expensive to have a team of in house software engineers in China and it is not FiiO core business to keep a department like that.
Edited by ClieOS - 12/19/10 at 12:52am
post #86 of 3613

Ugh, thank goodness it's not going to be another SigmaTel or Rockchip player.  The 3770 has its place, for sure, and I'm still waiting for a Chinese DAP company to come out with the "killer app" (C30, et al. was pretty close) with this chip...but for now it's the domain of either $20 players or ludicrously overpriced clunkers.

 

Rockchip (and the other "solution providers) have played their role in dumbing down the DAP/PMP market in China.  For sure, manufacturers have played their role too, but I'm still miffed about it. 

 

The Wolfson 8740 would be all right, but it's been done.  Fiio is also a customer of Analog Devices and Texas Instruments...why not shop around a little?

post #87 of 3613


Quote:

Originally Posted by Riku540 View Post


I whole-heartedly agree with James. A lot of the things people are requesting already have existing products with those features.

 

My personal problem with most portable devices is that they are so multi-functional that they can do almost anything; but not as well as others. Like iPods, they're an ok music player with cameras, but not as good as actual cameras, support movies which isn't as good as watching TV, and have WI-FI that isn't as fast as a computer. FiiO has an opportunity to make an affordable device that can rise above all others in a single category. SOUND.

 

Following the sound-first mindset; how many hours a day can one critically listen to music? Certainly not 24 hours. Why would more than that be needed? If you're listening for that long chances are it's background noise to keep you busy while multi-tasking. There are already plenty of great players that have ridiculous battery lifespans. And really, how hard is it to bring a charger with you?

 

Still in the sound-first mindset; I don't think the X3 needs massive storage. 8 gigs of FLAC is roughly what, 20-24 albums, 45 mins a piece? Especially if the battery isn't going to last you days; I don't see why one would need to bring their entire music collection with them. I'm sure the X3 will have more than this anyway. Again, there are already devices that have insane storage space.

 

Many of the best things in life come in simplicity; I believe FiiO is the perfect company to fulfill this philosophy. Take away all the things we want and leave what we need as audiophiles.

 

We, as Head-Fi'ers, can help make the X3 one monster of a MUSIC player.



I have to whole-heartedly disagree with you.

 

Do many of these features already exist in current products? Of course, I don't think anyone would argue that. But what I think you miss with the sound-only stance is that for the majority of consumers, the balance of those features is also very important. I've been trying to decide between 3 different devices as an upgrade for the past couple months, at least, and still can't come to a conclusion because, while all those devices are excellent, each has balance issues that prevent me from picking a clear winner. If there was a perfect player out there for me, I'd have it almost regardless of the cost. But that isn't the case for me or most others. What people in this thread (myself included) have done is list the features which really matter to them. A lot of people have very similar ideas, and many of the requested features I don't think are too unreasonable. I think a lot of it really can be done to make a great balanced DAP.

 

If you want to throw out battery life and storage considerations, etc., for an uncompromising focus on sound quality, then guess what? There's already a product for you. It's called the S:flo2 and by all accounts should give you a fantastic 6 or 7 hours of listening to a small portion of your music collection. Personally, a poor UI, short runtime, and limited storage capacity make it pretty easy for me to pass up, sound quality be damned. And that's true of a lot people.

 

FiiO's philosophy seems to be one of providing products to a large target market at a low price, so I don't think they're aiming to design an extreme niche audiophile product here. They have to find what lots of people care about in a portable music player in order to design something that lots of people would want. Nobody wants a dud of a player, but lots of people, even here, want more than sound quality alone.

 

Edit:

Personally, I'm less than satisfied with anything less than 10 hours for battery life. More is obviously nicer for those longer periods you have to go without a charger, but for the most part I would agree with you that more than 24 hours is unnecessary for all but the most extreme cases.

However, if FiiO went the route you suggested, I'd honestly be a disappointed at what could have been. The thing may sound better, but it will come at a pretty big cost to usability for a lot of potential users.

What I would like to see is a player that sounds good and strikes a better balance between features than the competition. What I won't bother with is a player that sounds great while sacrificing all else.


Edited by Train - 12/19/10 at 4:25am
post #88 of 3613

Wolfson 8740 is already in the E7 so they already have a circuit worked out to work with it, and an amp circuit to go with it. This is speculation but I do believe it likely that the X3's amp and DAC internals will be identical, or very little changed from that of the E7, and that it will be a DAP version of it. ClieOS already has a prototype from the sounds of it so it's unlikely it is a start-from-scratch project. Please do confirm or deny this guess work James, I'm not claiming it is anything but guess work.

 

I think they expect most users to pair it with an amp anyway so why break the bank on the amp section? And as the DAC goes, the 8740 may not be state of the art but it's a nice DAC that sounds great and fits with FiiOs philosophy of good quality, entry level price products. You can also bypass it entirely with coaxial out to any of the coaxial-in iBasso dac/amps.

 

If I was going to guess at size I would say it will have a similar footprint to the E7 as well. That it will be the same width as the E7 seems very likely since it docks with the E9 and I think the E7 is a fine depth and width for a dap. Possibly it might be a bit shorter so as to be a perfect footprint match for the upcoming E11 amp. That would make sense anyway - we all love a dap and an amp with a matching footprint. But then from base to the top of the volume dial protector thingy the E7 and E11 are the same size. 

 

I don't have any issues with the footprint size of the E7 as a DAP BUT they need to make it slimmer than the E7. With the line out and coaxial out, this is clearly designed to be paired with another product of the customers choice, and I guess they hope that will be the E11.

 

The E11 is already 12mm thick and there are much thicker amps than that out there. How thick a "sandwich" are consumers going to accept? When it comes to physical design - the X3 should be as slim as humanly possible. 

 

I realise of course the product is probably too far along to change the casing now, but I do think it would be a great shame if it did end up being the same casing as the E7.

 

EDIT: Something just occurred to me - while I don't have my iBasso D10 anymore to compare visually - the coaxial socket is actually pretty big... in fact I doubt it would fit on a device which is less thick than the E7. Therefore I'm going to call it - the X3 will use the exact same case as the E7. 

 

Not actually the end of the world if true. I'm holding mine in my hand now and it's kind of similar to a first gen ipod in dimensions.

 

Regarding the amount of suggestions going around; FiiO should be proud they are generating this by their philosophy of engaging the customer. All the users here care about music and have been frustrated over the years by DAP manufacturers making silly mistakes in their firmware and UI which get in the way of us enjoying it. You've come here and offered us an opportunity to feed in to the process so while it may be overwhelming to have so many comments come back at you at such a speed, do be proud of what you are doing here.

 

So long as you manage gapless playback, I will get one at launch if only to reward the positive way you are doing business with this community.


Edited by EddieE - 12/19/10 at 3:05am
post #89 of 3613

coaxial is about 1cm i think

post #90 of 3613

Without getting a ruler out, the E7 is 13-15mm thick - so it seems to be a tight fit. 

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