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post #46 of 143

This review is useful if you know how to analyze it.

OP's dislike of the Beyers is irrelevant.  Each person is different, so you need to judge this review against what he DOES like.   

 

OP loves his Sennheiser HD-650s, so that's going to be his neutral, reference point. 

I'm really glad he mentioned this, because many reviewers don't.  You can only have real information if it's measured relative to something else. 

 

Now, I've owned the HD-650s for several months.  I like all types of music (even country) because I play guitar and I used to DJ hip hop and trance. 

I owned those cans for three months before I happily sold those over-loved, over-hyped, over-estimated, no bass having P.O.S. 

When you read a review, you always need to know what the reviewer's idea of "neutral" is. 

OP's neutral is the HD650.  Mine is the Sony MDR-V900 because I grew up with the Sony sound.

 

People who dig Sennheisers will rarely give a decent review on bass heavy cans. 

It will always like mud to them.  It will always be too much of this or not enough of that. 

Why?  Because they already have a "perfect" can in their minds:  HD-650, or HD-800, or some other Sennheiser.

 

That doesn't make their opinions wrong.  It's just you have to understand what their idea of neutral is and gauge it against your own. 

So conversely, Sennheisers will always be lacking in bass for me. 

 

People who are predisposed to hating something will always give a bad review. 

You grew up with muscle cars.  Are you going to give a good review of a Japanese sports car?

You grew up with jazz.  Are you going to give a good review of a hip hop album?

Of course not. 

 

Each can is good at nothing or good at something.  But no can is good at everything. 

Here's my test:

Would Snoop Dogg, or any professional rapper, listen to his own music through any Sennheiser and say:

"Wow, that's some perfectly balanced bass right there: not too much, not too little."

Of course not.  They will be completely disappointed at how little there is.  Hip hop culture dictates that you have gigantic woofers in your car. 

That is a Sennheiser lover's nightmare.

 

So, there is no one "neutral."  Such a thing does not exist.  It is pointless to try and get one can to do it all. 

 

post #47 of 143

Boom
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post

This review is useful if you know how to analyze it.

OP's dislike of the Beyers is irrelevant.  Each person is different, so you need to judge this review against what he DOES like.   

 

OP loves his Sennheiser HD-650s, so that's going to be his neutral, reference point. 

I'm really glad he mentioned this, because many reviewers don't.  You can only have real information if it's measured relative to something else. 

 

Now, I've owned the HD-650s for several months.  I like all types of music (even country) because I play guitar and I used to DJ hip hop and trance. 

I owned those cans for three months before I happily sold those over-loved, over-hyped, over-estimated, no bass having P.O.S. 

When you read a review, you always need to know what the reviewer's idea of "neutral" is. 

OP's neutral is the HD650.  Mine is the Sony MDR-V900 because I grew up with the Sony sound.

 

People who dig Sennheisers will rarely give a decent review on bass heavy cans. 

It will always like mud to them.  It will always be too much of this or not enough of that. 

Why?  Because they already have a "perfect" can in their minds:  HD-650, or HD-800, or some other Sennheiser.

 

That doesn't make their opinions wrong.  It's just you have to understand what their idea of neutral is and gauge it against your own. 

So conversely, Sennheisers will always be lacking in bass for me. 

 

People who are predisposed to hating something will always give a bad review. 

You grew up with muscle cars.  Are you going to give a good review of a Japanese sports car?

You grew up with jazz.  Are you going to give a good review of a hip hop album?

Of course not. 

 

Each can is good at nothing or good at something.  But no can is good at everything. 

Here's my test:

Would Snoop Dogg, or any professional rapper, listen to his own music through any Sennheiser and say:

"Wow, that's some perfectly balanced bass right there: not too much, not too little."

Of course not.  They will be completely disappointed at how little there is.  Hip hop culture dictates that you have gigantic woofers in your car. 

That is a Sennheiser lover's nightmare.

 

So, there is no one "neutral."  Such a thing does not exist.  It is pointless to try and get one can to do it all. 

 

post #48 of 143

ROFL like I said in another thread just recently it sooo weird how some people say the HD 650s have way to much bass and others say it has no bass at all. There are huge differences in perspective and the OP has an EXCELLENT point, everything is relative. To say that the HD 650s has no bass is downright insane. To say they have way to much bass is also not really comprahedable (F, how do you spell that?) to me. To say they don't have enough bass for you or too much bass for you makes sense, but nothing about the bass quantity of the HD 650s is extreme one way or the other. And of course, the veil is a complete myth. They don't sound any more "veiled" than any other headphone. 

post #49 of 143
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mibutenma View Post

Its funny you hate the DT 880 but still keep a headphone with a lot more treble the AD 700.

 


Please quote me where I say "hate". The DT880 is in my top 3 favorite headphones.

 

By the way, I don't listen to the AD700 anymore. I haven't listened to it for months. I actually tried comparing it to the HD650 just like I did the Beyers. And guess what? I actually found it quite hollow sounding, with too much air. There was so much air in fact, it felt like the music was watered down, that on top of it being quite bright. I couldn't help but snicker when I compared it to the HD650...

 

But, you've intrigued me. I think I may compare the AD700 to the DT880/DT990 to see if it really has more treble like you state. While I'm at it, I'll make sure my opinions in the OP are still accurate, and try out the DT880/DT990 a bit more.

 

If the DT880/DT990 don't have treble, then what does? Anyone can understand what treble sounds like by listening to either of them...

post #50 of 143
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post

This review is useful if you know how to analyze it.

OP's dislike of the Beyers is irrelevant.  Each person is different, so you need to judge this review against what he DOES like.   

 

OP loves his Sennheiser HD-650s, so that's going to be his neutral, reference point. 

I'm really glad he mentioned this, because many reviewers don't.  You can only have real information if it's measured relative to something else. 

 

Now, I've owned the HD-650s for several months.  I like all types of music (even country) because I play guitar and I used to DJ hip hop and trance. 

I owned those cans for three months before I happily sold those over-loved, over-hyped, over-estimated, no bass having P.O.S. 

When you read a review, you always need to know what the reviewer's idea of "neutral" is. 

OP's neutral is the HD650.  Mine is the Sony MDR-V900 because I grew up with the Sony sound.

 

People who dig Sennheisers will rarely give a decent review on bass heavy cans. 

It will always like mud to them.  It will always be too much of this or not enough of that. 

Why?  Because they already have a "perfect" can in their minds:  HD-650, or HD-800, or some other Sennheiser.

 

That doesn't make their opinions wrong.  It's just you have to understand what their idea of neutral is and gauge it against your own. 

So conversely, Sennheisers will always be lacking in bass for me. 

 

People who are predisposed to hating something will always give a bad review. 

You grew up with muscle cars.  Are you going to give a good review of a Japanese sports car?

You grew up with jazz.  Are you going to give a good review of a hip hop album?

Of course not. 

 

Each can is good at nothing or good at something.  But no can is good at everything. 

Here's my test:

Would Snoop Dogg, or any professional rapper, listen to his own music through any Sennheiser and say:

"Wow, that's some perfectly balanced bass right there: not too much, not too little."

Of course not.  They will be completely disappointed at how little there is.  Hip hop culture dictates that you have gigantic woofers in your car. 

That is a Sennheiser lover's nightmare.

 

So, there is no one "neutral."  Such a thing does not exist.  It is pointless to try and get one can to do it all. 

 


More users need to read this. Some of them just do not understand. This is what I was trying to get across.

 

(Opinion, Preference, Opinion, Preference, Opinion, Preference, Opinion, Preference)

post #51 of 143
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yekrut View Post

 

After reading tons of post here I settled for the DT990 600 Ohm version. Paired with the LD MK III they sound amazing. The treble is no longer harsh and the bass is even tighter than before.

 

 

I'd be really interested in your thoughts on the Little Dot MkIII paired with the DT990. I've just bought a 250 Ohm pair (600 Ohm version not available otherwise I would have got it), and would like a desktop amp to match. I was thinking that the LD MkIII would smooth out the high end, but was wondering what it did to the mid and bass with the stock tubes.

post #52 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyagi View Post

I'd be really interested in your thoughts on the Little Dot MkIII paired with the DT990. I've just bought a 250 Ohm pair (600 Ohm version not available otherwise I would have got it), and would like a desktop amp to match. I was thinking that the LD MkIII would smooth out the high end, but was wondering what it did to the mid and bass with the stock tubes.

Thanks for the interest. I'm not very well versed in any of the audio lingo but I'll do my best to try to explain the differences I observed/observe when switching from my macbook-->uDac output (referred to as computer/macbook) to the macbook--uDac2---LD MKIII (stock). Just keep in mind that I'm using the 600 Ohm, and the differences I hear may not be the same for the 250 Ohm.

 

First thing I notice is the bass. Out of the LD MKIII the bass is tighter and seems to go deeper. This is especially noticeable at louder volumes. The bass remains clear, detailed with lots of impact. When playing it straight out of the macbook, it's just not quite as nice, especially in the low deep bass. This is especially true when listening to jazz. When listening to Keith Jarrett's-No Moon at All (Jasmine) I can hear everything the bass player is doing, it's just not as clear straight from the computer. There is a bass solo at one point and its just a joy through the LD MKIII, bass is quick, tight and clear.

 

To be honest I really can't notice a difference in the midrange. Although slightly recessed, its still very good, and clear. Vocals sound great on these headphones, just could be a bit more forward.

 

The treble is also improved, in my opinion, through the LD MKIII. Once again this is noticeable at higher volumes. Where straight out from the computer some of the highs would feel like they are hurting my ears (peircing?), its not the case here. Yes, on poorer recordings the treble can sound harsh, but any of my nicer albums the treble is crystal clear and smoother.  The LD really helps take some of the edge off the sometimes shrill sounding treble (once again on poor recordings).

 

I'm struggling to describe this part, but I feel like the clarity of the highs gives this headphone a very wide sounding soundstage (don't know if thats the right term). It feels like its spacious: instruments are not in your head but more around you (I often close my eyes and just listen to better perceive this). I find this especially true when listening to orchestral recordings. I really enjoy this aspect, it gives the headphone a somewhat analytical characteristic, yet the impactful bass really keeps the headphone fun. Listening to Deadmau5 - Raise your Weapon (4*4=12) seems to illustrate this with the high pitched female vocals and bassy chords. I find this characteristic to be enhanced by the LD MKIII. I think this is mostly due to what I described previously: tighter, deeper bass, and clearer/less agressive treble.

 

I would like to note that these differences really aren't that dramatic, and when explained through text it may seem like big changes, but in reality they are often quite subtle. Also want to point out that the 600 Ohm is harder to drive than the 250 Ohm and therefore I may actually be seeing more improvements when switching from uDac to LD MKIII (since LD drives my headphones much better). While auditioning my headphones, I was listening to the 250 Ohm version through a very nice McIntosh amp. I loved the DT990, even when comparing it to the DT880, but found the highs too bright. The 600 Ohm version improved on that, and I think the LD MKIII made it even better. Keep in mind that that with tube rolling you can find tubes that could potentially further improve on the highs and the mids (huge thread on those).

 

Two line summary:

If you like the sound signature of the DT990, the LD MKIII will improve upon it by making the highs less harsh, and really bringing out the best in the bass. I think the DT990 works very well with the LD MKIII.

 

Hope my thoughts help you in some way.

post #53 of 143

Whatever reproduces the original signal most accurately is the most neutral. In the same vein, a muscle car will get destroyed by a sports car in anything but a drag race. Certain phones are better from a technical perspective. That doesn't mean you have to prefer them though, I mean lots of people drive trucks and suvs, ha.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarkang View Post

 

So, there is no one "neutral."  Such a thing does not exist.  It is pointless to try and get one can to do it all. 

 


Edited by Antony6555 - 12/7/10 at 11:01pm
post #54 of 143

I think that some of the attacks on the OP are a little harsh, specifically those that accost him for liking the AD700 at one point and then not mentioning it later on, as though this lessens his credibility. I think we've all been on/followed Head-Fi long enough that we've seen people's taste evolve over time through their posts. I also challenge the average long-time Head-Fi'er to (a) tell us with a straight face that they like/own the exact same cans they did, say, two years ago, and (b) claim that their taste in cans hasn't changed at least subtly over that period. I fully submit that some will be able to do this just fine. But I've seen many, many posters (whom I won't name for obvious reasons) who, in earlier posts, proclaim their love for headphone x, only to roundly put it down in later posts. They're not hypocritical, nor are they misinformed, "wrong," or anything else. They've simply either found something they liked better (upgrade/sidegrade), or else they have tried something new and found they preferred a completely different sort of presentation than before. This is what Katun did with the HD650, whose presentation he says he greatly prefers to both the Beyers. As a DT880 owner, I'm not going to fault his opinion, and I can even see where he's coming from. 

 

Katun also really liked his AD700 at the time of his review. Heck, when I was in my teens I thought my V700 was pretty dang snazzy (yes, you're free to flame me). I still have one operational pair (the first ones broke and I kept them for spare parts for the second pair, which also broke many times), and they sound like utter garbage to me compared to any of the cans I've had/auditioned over the past year. We grow, we evolve, and we find a sound and presentation that truly fits us. I in no way feel I've found my end all with my DT880, though I'm sure I'll be keeping them around for their unique airiness. But for all I know an HD650 or D5000 might fall in my lap (hey, I'm a 13 year old looking for headphones wink.gif) within the next year and send my Beyers packing.

 

I also understand about the reference point for treble. How would one intrinsically know what too much treble sounds like? Maybe one could read objective reviews (an oxymoron?) that describe precisely what elevated treble sounds like, but without multiple samples from which to triangulate out an average, it wouldn't be as obvious as some would believe. Human senses are pretty good at sussing out extremes, but they're less precise for appraising smaller, more subtle differences. What's more, we have an unabiding habit of adjusting to a particular system through constant exposure, then adjusting to a different system through similarly constant exposure. We notice the difference in the transition period, but we establish a new "norm" after a while. It's only when something is very distracting, such as a loud, earsplitting sound in a quiet room, that we will always be aware of its presence and deviation from "normal". We tend to ignore after a while things like a soft hum or a faint scent in a room and are perhaps surprised to notice their presence if we, say, leave for a while and then return. This being the case, I can completely accept that Katun didn't notice how trebly a DT880 (or even a DT990) was without a reference point like the HD650. I don't think this harms his credibility in any way.

 

Besides, if people are supposed to be able to accurately imagine (without a ton of experience, at least) what a certain tonal signature element sounds like, then why are so many on Head-Fi opposed to judging headphones solely on frequency response curve charts? biggrin.gif


Edited by Argyris - 12/7/10 at 11:54pm
post #55 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyris View Post

I think that some of the attacks on the OP are a little harsh, specifically those that accost him for liking the AD700 at one point and then not mentioning it later on, as though this lessens his credibility. I think we've all been on/followed Head-Fi long enough that we've seen people's taste evolve over time through their posts. I also challenge the average long-time Head-Fi'er to (a) tell us with a straight face that they like/own the exact same cans they did, say, two years ago, and (b) claim that their taste in cans hasn't changed at least subtly over that period. I fully submit that some will be able to do this just fine. But I've seen many, many posters (whom I won't name for obvious reasons) who, in earlier posts, proclaim their love for headphone x, only to roundly put it down in later posts. They're not hypocritical, nor are they misinformed, "wrong," or anything else. They've simply either found something they liked better (upgrade/sidegrade), or else they have tried something new and found they preferred a completely different sort of presentation than before. This is what Katun did with the HD650, whose presentation he says he greatly prefers to both the Beyers. As a DT880 owner, I'm not going to fault his opinion, and I can even see where he's coming from. 

 

Katun also really liked his AD700 at the time of his review. Heck, when I was in my teens I thought my V700 was pretty dang snazzy (yes, you're free to flame me). I still have one operational pair (the first ones broke and I kept them for spare parts for the second pair, which also broke many times), and they sound like utter garbage to me compared to any of the cans I've had/auditioned over the past year. We grow, we evolve, and we find a sound and presentation that truly fits us. I in no way feel I've found my end all with my DT880, though I'm sure I'll be keeping them around for their unique airiness. But for all I know an HD650 or D5000 might fall in my lap (hey, I'm a 13 year old looking for headphones wink.gif) within the next year and send my Beyers packing.

 

I also understand about the reference point for treble. How would one intrinsically know what too much treble sounds like? Maybe one could read objective reviews (an oxymoron?) that describe precisely what elevated treble sounds like, but without multiple samples from which to triangulate out an average, it wouldn't be as obvious as some would believe. Human senses are pretty good at sussing out extremes, but they're less precise for appraising smaller, more subtle differences. What's more, we have an unabiding habit of adjusting to a particular system through constant exposure, then adjusting to a different system through similarly constant exposure. We notice the difference in the transition period, but we establish a new "norm" after a while. It's only when something is very distracting, such as a loud, earsplitting sound in a quiet room, that we will always be aware of its presence and deviation from "normal". We tend to ignore after a while things like a soft hum or a faint scent in a room and are perhaps surprised to notice their presence if we, say, leave for a while and then return. This being the case, I can completely accept that Katun didn't notice how trebly a DT880 (or even a DT990) was without a reference point like the HD650. I don't think this harms his credibility in any way.

 

Besides, if people are supposed to be able to accurately imagine (without a ton of experience, at least) what a certain tonal signature element sounds like, then why are so many on Head-Fi opposed to judging headphones solely on frequency response curve charts? biggrin.gif



Very eloquently put. I personally believe your first highend headphone will heavily influence your tastes in the future one way or another, even as, like you said, it evolves over time. I certainly gravitate toward slightly warm signatures, which might explain my distaste for the K702. Many people are extra sensitive to high frequency ranges, but if you read opinions from some of the most prolific, experienced and well-known users on this forum on the DT880/DT990, most won't tell you they're extremely bright. Just like you need multiple points of reference to form a meaningful opinion on a headphone, so should you also look at multiple opinions from different people who have all had reasonable experience with various headphones. Over time a general consensus will start to form, weeding out the dissenting opinions such as this thread, and giving an overall impression about a headphone (or phones) within reasonable proximity to what can be presumed to be the "truth", or at least a well-grounded perspective.

 

There are many bright headphones out there, and rarely are the DT880/DT990 spoken in the same breath as the brightest of them.

post #56 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reputator View Post


Very eloquently put. I personally believe your first highend headphone will heavily influence your tastes in the future one way or another, even as, like you said, it evolves over time. I certainly gravitate toward slightly warm signatures, which might explain my distaste for the K702. Many people are extra sensitive to high frequency ranges, but if you read opinions from some of the most prolific, experienced and well-known users on this forum on the DT880/DT990, most won't tell you they're extremely bright. Just like you need multiple points of reference to form a meaningful opinion on a headphone, so should you also look at multiple opinions from different people who have all had reasonable experience with various headphones. Over time a general consensus will start to form, weeding out the dissenting opinions such as this thread, and giving an overall impression about a headphone (or phones) within reasonable proximity to what can be presumed to be the "truth", or at least a well-grounded perspective.

 

There are many bright headphones out there, and rarely are the DT880/DT990 spoken in the same breath as the brightest of them.


I agree with you here. My first decent set of equipment was not the V700 (which I was never fully satisfied with), but a decent pair of bookshelf speakers driven by a vintage receiver. Both the receiver and the speakers are a bit bright in their presentation; the receiver also has a bit of a midbass bump, but the speakers trail off in lower bass extension. As a result of my exposure to this system for several years I tend to enjoy a slightly bright, coherent, somewhat punchy kind of sound that's lean and taut in the bass. The venerable M50 was too dark for me; the Grado SR225i had a nice balance but lacked the treble extension and coherence I was looking for. The DT880 has proved a good match for me so far. I wouldn't characterize it as outrageously bright (surely many Grados are brighter), but it's definitely tipped up in the treble. I've still yet to hear a DT990, so I can't really pass judgment, but most opinions I read seem to indicate it's brighter than the DT880. Where that falls on an "absolute" scale of magnitude (if such a thing even exists) is something I couldn't say, having not heard such headphones as the SA5000 and GS1000, which are reputed to be quite bright.

 

Truth be told, some days (as I believe I mentioned in a previous post) I feel like I wouldn't mind a warmer signature for a change. A complimentary set will hopefully be in my near future. Such is the never ending Head-Fi quest.

post #57 of 143

popcorn.gif  VERY GOOD reading here! I just woke up and coaxed my mind out of sleep with the above rather thoughtful looks into the meaning of colored sound signatures. My eyes and ears are open. Thanks, guys!

post #58 of 143

Just for fun, and not entirely fair, I thought I would post this little gem:

 

showGraph.php?graphID=93

 

This is not fair because it's for the old (pre-2005) DT990 Pro model, and because it probably uses a different methodology from the one currently used by HeadRoom. The current chart is a lot more tame, particularly in the treble. I'll bet these headphones are bright, but not +12dB bright. eek.gif

 

And this, kids, is why we should never trust charts alone. biggrin.gif

post #59 of 143

Wow, this thread has really kicked off in a short timespan.

 

Being a dedicated DT150 cult follower for almost two years I would be very interested to have these thrown in the mix, especially because I have barely ever heard and experienced the Sennheiser HD580/600/650 series. That said, I have read multiple times that the DT150 could be characterized as nearly a closed version of aforementioned cans with the slightly darker, sibilance-free soundsignature with soundstage very big for being a closed headphone.

 

Has anyone compared the HD series with the DT150, or would it be possible for the OP to get a pair of DT150 for comparison?

 

I'm particularly interested in the DT880/HD600/650>DT150 comparison as I am in search of a new set of cans and these are the strongest contenders.

 

As a reference I'll include links to the most informative DT150 threads so far:

 

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/265251/beyerdynamic-dt-150-bloody-brilliant

 

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/472751/the-beyer-dt150-experience

 

I hope this doesnt qualify as off topic.

post #60 of 143

Off-topic!!!

 

...

 

Just kidding. I too am happy to see this thread spurring a lot of Head-fi'ers to engage in heated, but civil, discourse. At the very least, maanster, you should change your avatar from Audio-technicas to Beyer's. Off-topic avatars! Sheesh! wink_face.gif


Edited by sampson_smith - 12/8/10 at 7:33am
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