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How much difference is there between Monoprice interconnects and power cables and, say, Cardas...

post #1 of 33
Thread Starter 

Hello everyone,

 

I am looking into getting a balanced amp and DAC and will start out with Monoprice interconnects and power cables to begin with, but just so I know, what is the real difference between those and some high end cables such as Cardas or Kimber etc? I believe that more expensive cables offer some improvements in sound over cheap cables like Monoprice for a number of reasons, one of which is that many people use them, enjoy them, and claim to hear a difference. My question is, how much of a difference is there? Is it a large amount of increased bass slam, resolution, soundstaging, and detail? Or is it a more subtle increase in quality that you can hardly hear but know something sounds better? Thanks in advance to any and all who post here. Please don't start a war with each other.

post #2 of 33

The way I see interconnects, when I hear one that I prefer over the other, my system has the same basic sound but something seems missing with the cable that I don't prefer.  Something just seems sorta wrong.  I don't find interconnects to be hugely obvious, just necessary. 

post #3 of 33

Here's an experiment that I performed with the lil' µDAC from NuForce. Using a Rat Shack IC, I connected the lil' µDAC to my Sonett and music played. It's a pretty darn good little DAC, especially for the money. However, it wasn't quite up to par with my HeadAmp Pico. On a whim, I swapped in my Harmonic Technology Magic Link Two IC's, a $1K interconnect. Uh! Wow! The lil' µDAC was suddenly a musical instrument!

 

Ok, the IC is a grand and recognized as one of the best IC's in that price range. The µDAC is a hundred dollar entry level product, and even though there is some debate about its value, it's killer with the Magic Link Two IC's. Will anybody try it with such disproportionate peripherals? Not normally. However, if you've got some high-end IC's laying around, it becomes the lil' DAC that could! at least when combined with the right stuff... wink_face.gif


Edited by Rdr. Seraphim - 11/23/10 at 11:14pm
post #4 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by scootermafia View Post

The way I see interconnects, when I hear one that I prefer over the other, my system has the same basic sound but something seems missing with the cable that I don't prefer.  Something just seems sorta wrong.  I don't find interconnects to be hugely obvious, just necessary. 


man, a politician could have not given a more vague answer...tongue.gif

 

anyway, it's not easy to explain...for me it's like poetry...pure poetry. how do you explain poetry? 

post #5 of 33

seriously...

 

I think Rdr. Seraphim has given a great example of the differences... imagine using the IC's with even a better dac... and you get the idea.

post #6 of 33
Thread Starter 

So you should upgrade the source components first and then get better ICs, or get as good ICs as you can afford with your equipment? The stuff I am looking to buy is a $600 amp and a $300 DAC. I thought I was going to get away with spending ~ $30 on ICs from monoprice, and have great sound. You guys seem to cede this point, but tell me it will definitely sound better the higher level of ICs I get. I can see how this works. I do have Beyer DT880 250s balanced with Cardas, which I got for an absolute steal at a meet's auction. 

 

Do you think if I did some A/Bing at a meet in a quiet room with a setup and some recordings I really knew I would be able to tell a difference? 

post #7 of 33

I'm not a cable maven but I believe there is a difference between a $5 Radio shack and a $300 Cardas. I also believe there is something in between that has a reasonable price-to-performance ratio.

 

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/ 

post #8 of 33
It depends on whether your eyes are open or closed.

People only hear differences when they can see what cable they're listening to. Take that away and no one can tell the difference.

Electronic test equipment agrees, as well.

Here's another way to look at it: some cables claim to improve bass. Say you have a pair of headphones that measures -6dB down at 40Hz. You add the "bassy" cable and the headphone still measures -6dB down. How much improvement is there, really? If you can hear more bass, why doesn't it show up in a measurement? And then why does the improvement go away when you don't know what you're listening to?

Something else to consider is that cables are typically argued as a yes/no proposition as to whether they "work." Either that all cables work or that none of them do.

But that doesn't square with reality. It is possible that none of them make a difference with audio frequencies. However, when you look at individual cable types and the claims the manufacturers make, you notice that the construction qualities vary immensely, subscribe to different build philosophies and, often, make identical claims.

Let's say that manufacturer A uses red cable insulation and manufacturer B uses blue insulation. Both A and B claim that red and blue insulation, respectively, improve bass due to the way they are colored. Clearly, both cannot be correct. There are three possibilities: A is right and B is wrong, B is right and A is wrong, or both A and B are wrong.

Meanwhile, you find purchasers of both cables claiming improved bass. That gives you a couple of possibilities. It means that at least half of those owners are experiencing placebo/suggestion or, possibly, all of them are.

Looking at the big picture, not every cable can "work" as advertised. There are simply too many variations out there. Some who own cables are imagining the supposed benefits. There is a possibility that some cables work, of course. But you cannot say that because a red cable improves bass, therefore, blue cables do the same. Someone has to be experiencing placebo. And it is possible that all of them are under the influence of placebo.

Before anyone discounts placebo, consider that it is very much real. Placebo can heal the sick and make pain disappear. That it might also cause you to think your equipment sounds better is a very real possibility. Not a certainty, of course, but also something that has never been ruled out.

So think it over and be sure to read all of the claims from the various manufacturer. When you come across conflicting claims - and you absolutely will - sit and think about it. Can both of them be right? If so, how could that be possible? Is one right and the other wrong? Or are both of them wrong?
post #9 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post

It depends on whether your eyes are open or closed.

People only hear differences when they can see what cable they're listening to. Take that away and no one can tell the difference.

Electronic test equipment agrees, as well.

Here's another way to look at it: some cables claim to improve bass. Say you have a pair of headphones that measures -6dB down at 40Hz. You add the "bassy" cable and the headphone still measures -6dB down. How much improvement is there, really? If you can hear more bass, why doesn't it show up in a measurement? And then why does the improvement go away when you don't know what you're listening to?

Something else to consider is that cables are typically argued as a yes/no proposition as to whether they "work." Either that all cables work or that none of them do.

But that doesn't square with reality. It is possible that none of them make a difference with audio frequencies. However, when you look at individual cable types and the claims the manufacturers make, you notice that the construction qualities vary immensely, subscribe to different build philosophies and, often, make identical claims.

Let's say that manufacturer A uses red cable insulation and manufacturer B uses blue insulation. Both A and B claim that red and blue insulation, respectively, improve bass due to the way they are colored. Clearly, both cannot be correct. There are three possibilities: A is right and B is wrong, B is right and A is wrong, or both A and B are wrong.

Meanwhile, you find purchasers of both cables claiming improved bass. That gives you a couple of possibilities. It means that at least half of those owners are experiencing placebo/suggestion or, possibly, all of them are.

Looking at the big picture, not every cable can "work" as advertised. There are simply too many variations out there. Some who own cables are imagining the supposed benefits. There is a possibility that some cables work, of course. But you cannot say that because a red cable improves bass, therefore, blue cables do the same. Someone has to be experiencing placebo. And it is possible that all of them are under the influence of placebo.

Before anyone discounts placebo, consider that it is very much real. Placebo can heal the sick and make pain disappear. That it might also cause you to think your equipment sounds better is a very real possibility. Not a certainty, of course, but also something that has never been ruled out.

So think it over and be sure to read all of the claims from the various manufacturer. When you come across conflicting claims - and you absolutely will - sit and think about it. Can both of them be right? If so, how could that be possible? Is one right and the other wrong? Or are both of them wrong?


Amen!

post #10 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatcat28037 View Post

I'm not a cable maven but I believe there is a difference between a $5 Radio shack and a $300 Cardas. I also believe there is something in between that has a reasonable price-to-performance ratio.

 

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/ 



+1 Love blue jeans cables; they are well built and at a great price

post #11 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by gopack87 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by fatcat28037 View Post

I'm not a cable maven but I believe there is a difference between a $5 Radio shack and a $300 Cardas. I also believe there is something in between that has a reasonable price-to-performance ratio.

 

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/ 



+1 Love blue jeans cables; they are well built and at a great price


I'll elaborate beyond my "one word post" above.  I am in the "all cables sound virtually the same" camp, as long as they are made from good quality materials, with good quality workmanship.  I also like the bluejeans products a lot.  Good materials, good hardware, good workmanship.  A fine cable.  Conversely, I recabled a pair of Ultrasones, and I honestly believe it improved the sound.  One look at the truly crummy stock Ultrasone cable, and I think even most hardcore "anti-cable" guys would probably accept that it sounded a bit better!  I also don't discount the fact that sometimes a better looking cable IS better, even if it sounds just the same, just because it looks better, and that makes me happy.  I like good quality, nice looking cables, but I don't buy the sound voodoo.

post #12 of 33

I think its important to buy a cable that looks good to you. Add a little back story about how the manufacturer was waiting 6 months for a special cable shipment from Russia, and you have yourself a nice sounding cable!

post #13 of 33

A couple thoughts:

 

1. I do believe that different cables have slightly different sound signatures, but IMO interconnects and power cables should be the very last priority when assembling a rig. Given the choice between spending $1000 on components and $500 on cables vs. spending $1400 on components and $100 on cables, I'll take the latter every time.

 

2. The problem with Monoprice cables is not so much their sound quality as the consistency of their build quality. I'd say that something like 10% of the cables I've ordered from Monoprice have had some sort of visible defect or noticeably loose connections. It's no big deal -- they're cheap, so you just throw them away and grab another. Once you find a whole set that are properly constructed, you're good to go and if you're missing anything SQ-wise, it's not much at all.

 

3. I kind of ignore the cable vitriol that happens so often here and have set my own priorities -- I want attractive, well-constructed cables that work every time and won't fall apart when I try to swap them out. For new interconnects, I'm partial to Signal Cable and Blue Jeans cables, and over time have assembled some used Kimber PBJs and several silver cables from different makers. For power cables, I like Iron Lung Jellyfish ($29 each) for my high-end components, but frequently use stock power cables anyway.

 

In conclusion, don't sweat it too much. Get the components you want, buy cheap cables to make everything work together, and mix in more expensive cables as budgetary considerations allow to figure out whether it's worth it to you.

post #14 of 33

In priority, I always suggest purchasing the best music making equipment you can afford, well before you delve into cables or power conditioning, etc. It only makes sense. The most benefit will be realized with the highest quality equipment you can purchase. If you were planning to spend $300 (or whatever) on cables, add it to the overall cost of your system so that your foundation is even better. The return is nearly instantaneous enjoyment and music pleasure. 

 

I also believe cables make a difference. So, I hope you try some different cables for yourself when it makes sense. If you can, find a reputable dealer who will allow you to give them a try in your own system. If you don't hear a difference, then don't buy. No one should try to convince you to purchase something that doesn't make a difference. 

 

 

   


Edited by Rdr. Seraphim - 11/23/10 at 11:10pm
post #15 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeGoodman View Post

So you should upgrade the source components first and then get better ICs, or get as good ICs as you can afford with your equipment? The stuff I am looking to buy is a $600 amp and a $300 DAC. I thought I was going to get away with spending ~ $30 on ICs from monoprice, and have great sound. You guys seem to cede this point, but tell me it will definitely sound better the higher level of ICs I get. I can see how this works. I do have Beyer DT880 250s balanced with Cardas, which I got for an absolute steal at a meet's auction. 

 

Do you think if I did some A/Bing at a meet in a quiet room with a setup and some recordings I really knew I would be able to tell a difference? 


A good general rule to follow is to spend roughly 10-20% of the price of your equipment on cables. Once you're happy with a piece of a equipment and have no real desire to upgrade, then you can start breaking that rule to see if going to say 50% will further improve its performance.

 

As with all cable discussions, you're going to see opinions on both sides as to whether high-end cables are jewelry for suckers with fat wallets, or critical components in a high-end system. I have no desire to rehash this tired argument again, all I'll say is that I am firmly in the latter camp. Cables (including power cords and conditioning equipment) can turn a good system into a great one. I would not recommend spending hundreds of dollars on a <$1000 system though, nor would I recommend paying MSRP for new Cardas or Kimber. Buy used on places like Audiogon, and you can save 50-70% on cables that are indistinguishable from new.

 

 

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