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Audio-gd NFB-10 - Page 55

post #811 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by axw View Post



 

NFB-10 sounds better on good power cables and the difference is fairly clear, although I have not blind tested. However, I did repeated blind tests with my previous DAC (Lavry) and never made a mistake between stock and audio-dedicated (AudioNova). On stock cables Lavry sounds awful, sharp and dirty. It seems to be a common assessment among Lavry users since two more people from Audiogon confirmed this.

 

I am not sure about the physics and science behind. It may depend on the quality of your voltage, maybe also EMI / RFI -- I live in a noisy area downtown. Maybe the quality of DAC's internal power filtering, because the effect was lesser on NFB-10 -- its psu section is definitely way better than Lavry's. 


yea... suuuureeeee....
http://www.auricles.com/new_page_41.htm + http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?654-The-Great-Cable-Debate
results (be interesting to see the same 'study' with multiple tries per person biggrin.gif
I'd also like to see RMAA tests with different power cables showing up as a measurable difference biggrin.gif .

Don't know what your testing procedure is (most likely some flaw cluing you into what cable is what?), but you must have mega-golden-ears biggrin.gif
Edited by svyr - 4/6/11 at 9:51am
post #812 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by svyr View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by axw View Post



 

NFB-10 sounds better on good power cables and the difference is fairly clear, although I have not blind tested. However, I did repeated blind tests with my previous DAC (Lavry) and never made a mistake between stock and audio-dedicated (AudioNova). On stock cables Lavry sounds awful, sharp and dirty. It seems to be a common assessment among Lavry users since two more people from Audiogon confirmed this.

 

I am not sure about the physics and science behind. It may depend on the quality of your voltage, maybe also EMI / RFI -- I live in a noisy area downtown. Maybe the quality of DAC's internal power filtering, because the effect was lesser on NFB-10 -- its psu section is definitely way better than Lavry's. 




yea... suuuureeeee....
http://www.auricles.com/new_page_41.htm + http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?654-The-Great-Cable-Debate
results (be interesting to see the same 'study' with multiple tries per person biggrin.gif
I'd also like to see RMAA tests with different power cables showing up as a measurable difference biggrin.gif .

Don't know what your testing procedure is (most likely some flaw cluing you into what cable is what?), but you must have mega-golden-ears biggrin.gif

 

Shocked, uh? I am not really surprised,  it is hard to believe at first - until you actually experience it yourself. I find good power cables the most important for DAC performance  popcorn.gif

 

To make things more complex for you I always fail in blind testing digital cables.  I can not tell between the stock A-GD toslink and bluejeans mitsubishi toslink, the same goes about spdif cables, some of them really expensive. And this applies to both Lavry and NFB-10ES. Btw, power cables make zero audible difference for preamps (tested on Phoenix and Proceed Pre / Mark Levinson brand) amps and active speakers.

 

Probably the easiest way to test this is by getting a good cable and comparing against the PC / stock one. Did you actually try it? Using what power cables and what DACs?

post #813 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by axw View Post



 

Shocked, uh? I am not really surprised,  it is hard to believe at first - until you actually experience it yourself. I find good power cables the most important for DAC performance  popcorn.gif

 

To make things more complex for you I always fail in blind testing digital cables.  I can not tell between the stock A-GD toslink and bluejeans mitsubishi toslink, the same goes about spdif cables, some of them really expensive. And this applies to both Lavry and NFB-10ES. Btw, power cables make zero audible difference for preamps (tested on Phoenix and Proceed Pre / Mark Levinson brand) amps and active speakers.

 

Probably the easiest way to test this is by getting a good cable and comparing against the PC / stock one. Did you actually try it? Using what power cables and what DACs?


mmmm, sure I still say the claim is ridiculous, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Will 'borrow' a 'special' cable from someone 'special' at the next local meet, and conduct a mini test lol biggrin.gif
In the meantime I still encourage you to link to RMAA measurements if they exist biggrin.gif (they sure do for analog interconnects, but haven't seen any for 'to-spec vs aftermarket' usb, spdif or power cables)
here's a 'special' video with a respected electronics design engineer encouraging you buy a cryo treated monocrystalic teflon/foil insulated power cable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ERMu825m4 . enjoy.
Edited by svyr - 4/6/11 at 10:01am
post #814 of 2810
Quote:
Originally Posted by svyr View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by axw View Post

Probably the easiest way to test this is by getting a good cable and comparing against the PC / stock one. Did you actually try it? Using what power cables and what DACs?




mmmm, sure I still say the claim is ridiculous, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Will 'borrow' a 'special' cable from someone 'special' at the next local meet, and conduct a mini test lol biggrin.gif
In the meantime I still encourage you to link to RMAA measurements if they exist biggrin.gif (they sure do for analog interconnects, but haven't seen any for 'to-spec vs aftermarket' usb, spdif or power cables)

 


Do yourself a favour and try, let your ears tell you the difference as maybe you won't hear any. Still you may want to like this thread.

 


Edited by axw - 4/6/11 at 3:04pm
post #815 of 2810

The Pangea AC9 is noticeably better, especially in bass and soundstage, than the audio-gd power cord and even more noticeable compared to the stock cable. I don't have "golden ears" and it is still easily discernable. Baird-gow and I both feel the AC9 is worth the money in combination with the NFB-10ES.

post #816 of 2810

I've heard arguments for and against power cables from headfiers I respect, but I'm glad I gave it a shot. Thanks, Somestranger, your impressions on the pangea with the NFB10. I also hear slight improvements, which were noticeable right away. Still not sure if it is a placebo effect, but I am perceiving a difference and but it helps have a second opinion.

post #817 of 2810

Power cords and conditioning is not a legend. Some of them are ridiculuosly expensive and probably they don't deserve. But a good power cord makes a change against stock one. This effect seen on different levels based on your house's cables. Some body hears no difference while some body hears a lot differences. 

post #818 of 2810



Why did you try the Pangea AC9 which was designed for speaker amps and not the AC14 which was designed for sources?

 

The AC9 has a larger wire section but the AC14 has better shielding and enough wire section. This doesn´t mean that the AC14 will sound better on every source. All I want to know is if you compared them both or if you know about someone who did it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by somestranger26 View Post

The Pangea AC9 is noticeably better, especially in bass and soundstage, than the audio-gd power cord and even more noticeable compared to the stock cable. I don't have "golden ears" and it is still easily discernable. Baird-gow and I both feel the AC9 is worth the money in combination with the NFB-10ES.



 

post #819 of 2810

Because the near-unanimous verdict is that the AC9 is way better than the AC14. That's why they now have the more expensive AC-14SE because people weren't satisfied with the AC-14. With how expensive the AC-14SE is you might as well go for the 7 gauge cable with crazy shielding (that you could use on a power amp or something later) unless you don't have room.

post #820 of 2810

I have a general noob question about my NFB-10WMs power needs. I'm looking at picking up a power conditioner such as one of the Furman PL-Plus models or PS Audio Duet. I'm wondering if the 10-15 amp specification of the power conditioner would limit power for the NFB amp section or if there is plenty of headroom.

post #821 of 2810


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid-Fi View Post

I have a general noob question about my NFB-10WMs power needs. I'm looking at picking up a power conditioner such as one of the Furman PL-Plus models or PS Audio Duet. I'm wondering if the 10-15 amp specification of the power conditioner would limit power for the NFB amp section or if there is plenty of headroom.



The amp (your NFB10) itself won't draw anywhere near the rated max of the line conditioner so yes a unit rated for 15 amp will be more than enough. I doubt it'll restrict anything in terms of dynamics...some line conditioners will restrict dynamics if you have big SS or tube amps attached to the so called high current outlets for example, but we are talking hundreds of watts per channel here and a lot more current draw than the NFB10 will ever need. You are safe choosing just about any competently built LC ...just make sure you match the LC to the circuits needs (if you have a 20 amp outlet...get a 20 amp LC, a 15 amp outlet a 15 amp LC...15 amp is the norm for most household electrical wiring).

 

Peete.


Edited by Pricklely Peete - 4/9/11 at 11:48am
post #822 of 2810

Peete, this is exactly the post I was hoping for. Thanks!
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pricklely Peete View Post


 



The amp (your NFB10) itself won't draw anywhere near the rated max of the line conditioner so yes a unit rated for 15 amp will be more than enough. I doubt it'll restrict anything in terms of dynamics...some line conditioners will restrict dynamics if you have big SS or tube amps attached to the so called high current outlets for example, but we are talking hundreds of watts per channel here and a lot more current draw than the NFB10 will ever need. You are safe choosing just about any competently built LC ...just make sure you match the LC to the circuits needs (if you have a 20 amp outlet...get a 20 amp LC, a 15 amp outlet a 15 amp LC...15 amp is the norm for most household electrical wiring).

 

Peete.



 

post #823 of 2810

My experience with line conditioners and the Audio GD DAC19-DSP is that they all sound different (I have 3 LC's and one of those has three levels of filtering). The DAC19-DSP sounds the best (to me) when it doesn't share the LC with anything else. If the NFB-10 doesn't sound great with your LC either try another one, or plug everything else (CD Player, Amp, etc.) into and leave the NFB-10 outside of the LC. IME CD/DVD players create a lot of noise and need to be isolated from Audio GD equipment. Of course the NFB-10 might be completely different from the DAC19-DSP.

 

Let us know how it goes.

post #824 of 2810


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom W View Post

My experience with line conditioners and the Audio GD DAC19-DSP is that they all sound different (I have 3 LC's and one of those has three levels of filtering). The DAC19-DSP sounds the best (to me) when it doesn't share the LC with anything else. If the NFB-10 doesn't sound great with your LC either try another one, or plug everything else (CD Player, Amp, etc.) into and leave the NFB-10 outside of the LC. IME CD/DVD players create a lot of noise and need to be isolated from Audio GD equipment. Of course the NFB-10 might be completely different from the DAC19-DSP.

 

Let us know how it goes.



 Agreed....digital gear injects noise back into the AC mains line....it helps to look an LC that has separate sections (for digital and analog) with this noise in mind (and deals with it effectively with optimized sections). Since the NFB10 combines elements of both (digital and analog combined under one lid) it might be worthwhile to try both sections (digital and analog) and maybe the HC outlets of the LC if it has them separate from the digital/analog sections. My own system I use an LC for the small signal stuff (analog gear like preamps, tape decks etc) in the LC preamp analog filter section and all of the digital gear plugged into the digital filtering section. I have all my big amps plugged directly into the wall supply (which is dedicated 20 amp lines x 2 with 2 Duplex outlet's per line). I get zero noise issues this way and no compression with dynamics. My head fi setup uses a bog standard AR LC that has minimal filtering on it's switched lines but has a digital section separate from the analog outlets. An LC can make a big difference or no difference at all...it all depends on the quality of your AC mains and to a lesser extent the quality of the wiring/outlets at your location....if you have reliable steady AC mains on HQ wiring (no cheap stuff) a LC might be overkill if it wasn't for the fact that so many digital pieces of kit are injecting noise into your AC mains (likely inside and outside your home) as you share that mains supply with a number of other households that likely have just as many digital devices plugged in........It sounds like a bigger problem than it actually is but every little bit helps....a nice LC gives one some protection and piece of mind as long as the LC itself doesn't go haywire (that's a rare occurrence thankfully).

 

 A good rule of thumb to follow is to find out which outlets in your dwelling have the heavy appliances on the circuit (and then avoid those for audio use)...that will solve 50% of your problems right off the bat. Other items like AC units, Microwaves, toasters, bathroom GFI's etc stove, dryer, fridge, freezer etc are all examples of appliances you don't want sharing a circuit with your computer and your audio gear...In fact I make sure my main audio system does not share with the computer since it's major source of AC noise injection itself (even top quality comp PSU's are noisy as hell compared to a linear PSU design). At any rate a comp running off a battery is the best of all but has limits for time before the charger kicks in which can inject a pile a garbage into the signal line and of course back into the outlet it's plugged into. All of this being said there are plenty of low cost options out there that will do a great job, some will alter the sound signature while others will not...there is no resource that I know of that would help one avoid the turkeys....for the most part though some Pro gear types are just as good as the audio types while others are simply awful ......Furman is a trustworthy Pro name, Monster Cable has some decent stuff that is overpriced at times...getting a sale item is a good investment (last years model for 30% off for example). Monster even has some Pro level LC's that are every bit as good as their HT line up ...PS Audio among other audio related types are strictly for those seeking the best of the best and need AC regenerating capability (apartment dwellers with horrid AC service, sags, noise, brown outs, no way to isolate from appliances on the same circuit etc). Even the Furman Pro gear AC regen units are pricey.....An AC regen unit is the last option if passive LC's fail to do the job.

 

You can certainly spend a little or lot of money on these things depending on what you need to get the job done. I would estimate that 95% of us don't need anything more fancy than a 300 dollar or less LC...beyond that other factors determine selection (budget, lack of a budget, gear level quality, expectation etc).

 

I would certainly not spare expense in the LC/Power delivery of an all out TOTL system (speaker of headphone based). At that level why limit options ? I hope this post has helped a bit.

 

Peete.


Edited by Pricklely Peete - 4/9/11 at 2:56pm
post #825 of 2810

Thanks Tom.

 

My recent experience has been pretty frustrating. I sold a Nuforce Icon HDP and Sigma 11 combo to fund the NFB 10. I am getting some clear improvements, such as NFB 10 having considerably more control and authority driving HD 650. The NFB also provides a more powerful and authoritative sound, is more neutral. That being said, I am clearly loosing some background blackness and micro-detail and subtle layering. This has really been frustrating, because I think accurate spacing and layering that is possible with a really clean background seems to give the most satisfaction and immersion.

 

I'm trying to figure out which direction to go, but this whole idea of power debates and conditioners is totally overwhelming. I've been searching around and see half of the posts I have stumbled across completely discredit conditioners and say they prefer the wall, while the other half were dramatic improvements :O.

 

I'm half tempted to sell my new NFB and go back to my tried and true HDP and Sigma 11 setup.

 

Dave

 

Edit - @ Peete thanks for expounding so much on your experience. I had already written my post when I saw it.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom W View Post

My experience with line conditioners and the Audio GD DAC19-DSP is that they all sound different (I have 3 LC's and one of those has three levels of filtering). The DAC19-DSP sounds the best (to me) when it doesn't share the LC with anything else. If the NFB-10 doesn't sound great with your LC either try another one, or plug everything else (CD Player, Amp, etc.) into and leave the NFB-10 outside of the LC. IME CD/DVD players create a lot of noise and need to be isolated from Audio GD equipment. Of course the NFB-10 might be completely different from the DAC19-DSP.

 

Let us know how it goes.



 


Edited by Sid-Fi - 4/9/11 at 3:31pm
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