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American kids, dumber than dirt; is it really this bad? - Page 10

post #136 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moontan13 View Post





One can't get thrown out of the military by failing a class. If a person can't cut it academicly, they are counseled, re-evaluated and are given another job to train for. If a person is disruptive, they give you a job with a class that nobody fails. 11B. Leg Infantry. Often though a disruptor is re-cycled to the same class, but has to wait for another class to open. During that wait the person is assigned to a post clean-up platoon. The real motivator is the DD214 with Honorable Discharge written on it.

Too bad so many don't realize the value of High School Diploma as well.


I didn't say they could get thrown out for failing a class. But the problem is that children legally have to stay in school until 16. You can't just get rid of bad students like you can in the military. 

post #137 of 163

Oh, how I like the old USSR school system: kids are not allowed to fail.

 

Education motto : Don't know how to, we'll teach you.  Don't want to, we'll make you.

Result : Almost all students get post-secondary education.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric View Post
I didn't say they could get thrown out for failing a class. But the problem is that children legally have to stay in school until 16. You can't just get rid of bad students like you can in the military. 
post #138 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric View Post




I didn't say they could get thrown out for failing a class. But the problem is that children legally have to stay in school until 16. You can't just get rid of bad students like you can in the military. 


You send them to a different school, more suited to their needs.
 

post #139 of 163

On a side note.  As someone who is part Asian I offer a few observations.  Culturally speaking, education represents the highest social value and teachers held in the highest regard of the professions.  Also you have only one grade option.  'A'.  Letter grades of 'B', 'C', 'D' are all equivalents of 'F'.  That's why Asians do so well academically across the board regardless of what country you find them.  Nothing is a 100% universal but the pattern is obvious.  It starts at home w/ standards set by the family and enforced by the same.  

 

For the most part everything else is like trying to build a marble palace on quicksand.    

post #140 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post

On a side note.  As someone who is part Asian I offer a few observations.  Culturally speaking, education represents the highest social value and teachers held in the highest regard of the professions.  Also you have only one grade option.  'A'.  Letter grades of 'B', 'C', 'D' are all equivalents of 'F'.  That's why Asians do so well academically across the board regardless of what country you find them.  Nothing is a 100% universal but the pattern is obvious.  It starts at home w/ standards set by the family and enforced by the same.  

 

For the most part everything else is like trying to build a marble palace on quicksand.    


That's true. Though let's not forget that such standards also account for the already high, and still rising, rate of suicide among Asian American students. The mental health issues that don't make the paper, well, I suspect those would make quite a few of us cringe.

 

I feel that the US and Asian countries place too much emphasis upon a college education. There really isn't anything wrong with a vocational job. Some people aren't cut out mentally for higher education, some just won't care for it. I really think that a two tier system, such as what is present in Germany for example, works best. One high school tier is for college prep, the other is vocational prep. It's clear that a good number of people aren't meant for a university education. People should recognize that.

post #141 of 163


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JxK View Post




That's true. Though let's not forget that such standards also account for the already high, and still rising, rate of suicide among Asian American students. The mental health issues that don't make the paper, well, I suspect those would make quite a few of us cringe.

 

I feel that the US and Asian countries place too much emphasis upon a college education. There really isn't anything wrong with a vocational job. Some people aren't cut out mentally for higher education, some just won't care for it. I really think that a two tier system, such as what is present in Germany for example, works best. One high school tier is for college prep, the other is vocational prep. It's clear that a good number of people aren't meant for a university education. People should recognize that.


I don't understand what you mean by not "meant" for a university education. What should people recognize specifically?

post #142 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by onef View Post


I don't understand what you mean by not "meant" for a university education. What should people recognize specifically?


People tend to be either audial or tactile learners or various combinations of those and other aspects thereof.  Not everyone learns best in a lecture environment that requires sitting and note taking 3-6 hours a day.  Its not a matter of capability but a question of using the right tool for the right job.  To me, University serves two possible purposes.  The opportunity to gather knowledge and/or to gain a diploma saying you are ready for the labor force.  I personally resent the whole Rockerfellian labor mill structure and consider it myopic and an insult to the species as a whole.  But I digress.  


Edited by Anaxilus - 10/29/10 at 10:45pm
post #143 of 163


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post




People tend to be either audial or tactile learners or various combinations of those and other aspects thereof.  Not everyone learns best in a lecture environment that requires sitting and note taking 3-6 hours a day.  Its not a matter of capability but a question of using the right tool for the right job.  To me, University serves two possible pruposes.  The opportunity to gather knowledge and/or to gain a diploma saying you are ready for the labor force.  I personally resent the whole Rockerfellian labor mill structure and consider it myopic and an insult to the species as a whole.  But I digress.  


Well said, and thanks for the clarification.

post #144 of 163
Thread Starter 

The labor mill might have served its purpose a hundred years ago but today there is less physical labor needed for society to function so it is an outmoded model. Skills now are much more specialized and require more education and the system is starting to recognize that, like it has been said in some places (ie Germany and Asia) better than others.

post #145 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by grokit View Post

The labor mill might have served its purpose a hundred years ago but today there is less physical labor needed for society to function so it is an outmoded model. Skills now are much more specialized and require more education and the system is starting to recognize that, like it has been said in some places (ie Germany and Asia) better than others.


Actually I don't think any nation truly gets it but I only say with a view through a prism that would take a few theses to convey.  So I'll play along.  Yes, the argument can be made some are further along.

post #146 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by grokit View Post

The labor mill might have served its purpose a hundred years ago but today there is less physical labor needed for society to function so it is an outmoded model. Skills now are much more specialized and require more education and the system is starting to recognize that, like it has been said in some places (ie Germany and Asia) better than others.


Your outmoded model still applies in the majority of the world. The increased specialisation of skills has also been going on for centuries and some education systems have known that for years, such as Germany. The UK has not been so quick off the mark and has concentrated too much on the humanities.

post #147 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by JxK View Post
I feel that the US and Asian countries place too much emphasis upon a college education. There really isn't anything wrong with a vocational job.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that there is a big difference in vocational jobs in much of Asia and the USA.  In the USA it is possible to make a decent living with a lot of jobs that don't require a college education.

 

This is not the case in a lot of Asia.  The pay for many vocational jobs can be terrible (relative to the local economy), even for skilled workers like auto mechanics, plumbers, and electricians.  Many of them are just getting by and a lot of them want to migrate to countries (e.g. Canada, USA, Europe, Australia) where you can make a decent living with a these types of job.

 

There are also other issues.  The university/college system in the USA is flexible enough that one can go to college at any age.  In many countries in Asia you are tracked (starting from as low as 9th grade) into a certain university subject area (e.g. engineering/science, humanities, arts).  If you miss that window by not going to college right after high school you can lose it forever.  Going back to college can be near impossible.

 

Assuming you want to have a middle-class level or higher level of income, you have to go to college in these countries.  The job market, and the requirements of the job market, is very different from those in USA and Western Europe.


Edited by odigg - 10/30/10 at 7:38am
post #148 of 163

not trying to bash anyone here but the american public school system is a mess. Although I'm currently studying in Hong Kong as a student, I have found that the American International School here which is based on the american public school system is a complete mess, appearing in the local newspaper all the time for the wrong reason. These kids are not poor either as the high school fees($12-$13k usd per annum) this shows that the problem is not with the wealth or financial state of the family but rather the school system. I'm fortunate enough to be in another private school in Hong Kong, and I find that the school system really needs improving and perhaps could learn something from Shanghai and Singapore which have the best education systems in the world.

post #149 of 163

An interesting read on the Finnish take on public schools:

 

http://nycpublicschoolparents.blogspot.com/2011/01/what-finland-and-asia-really-tell-us.html

post #150 of 163

I'm considering homeschooling our kids, if I can get my husband on board. The schools here are considered good, but my experiences so far with my 4yo (who has some minor special needs) have not been positive at ALL. They only agreed to evaluate him after I wrote the superintendent, the principal and the director of special education and CCed it to a bunch of fairly important people I know (being a journalist pays off sometimes!).

 

I went to public schools, and I did fairly well, but I remember a LOT of time spent being bored, when I could have been learning more. I remember not being able to take AP classes because I wasn't able to get to school early (no car, and my mom wouldn't drive me). And I most definitely remember getting to college and finding out that I was not NEARLY as smart as I'd thought I was. (I didn't even know how to study -- I'd never HAD to in high school.) It was actually a very rough time for me, because I went from being Little Miss Smartypants, who all the teachers knew and loved, to one of a VERY large group of smart kids, and far from the smartest of them! I graduated from Michigan State (not exactly an Ivy League school) with a whopping 2.7 GPA. Luckily, in newspapers, no one gives a crap about your grades!

 

At any rate, I have TONS of other concerns about the public schools:

 

  • The huge time suck that is standardized testing, and the LOWERING of standards so that states can show they're "improving."
  • The emphasis on academics instead of playing for very young children (even preschool and kindergarten age).
  • The reduction and even omission of recess. (I'm sorry, but I have two little boys, and I know what they're like if they don't get a chance to get their crazies out on a fairly frequent basis!) 
  • The "socialization" with some kids who, frankly, I wouldn't want my kids to socialize with in any other setting.
  • Bullying (big issue for me when I was a kid).
  • The emphasis on math and reading at the expense of other subjects, like science, history and language.

 

Anyway, my husband is convinced our kids will turn out weird if we homeschool. I've pointed out that his brothers aren't exactly paragons of social skills, and THEY went to public school, but he remains unconvinced.

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