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American kids, dumber than dirt; is it really this bad? - Page 9

post #121 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cianyx View Post

Class discrepancies has always existed regardless of intellectual levels. Besides that, jobs which involve large scale policies and economics has always been reserved for intellectuals anyway, as opposed to the mom and pop stores. What he describes is a growing push for jobs requiring higher intellectual skill. Sure, the rulers of the nation may be in the hands of a few intellects of power (like it always has been) but this growing push ensures that a larger sample of people can have input into the system. Still not a true democracy, but I still see the decentralisation of power as a significant improvement. 

 

Another thing, I don't really get what you mean by 'education and intellect in the hands of the few''.

 

How do you make an argument about the eternal existence of classes against my claim that class discrepancy is on the rise.  Try to engage the argument rather than making another.  You seem to be saying education and intellect is trending higher per capita relative to time and somehow is driven by the growth of white collar jobs.  I'm saying the opposite and a lot of data backs it up.  If anything your point supports the threads title since the US has increased the outsourcing of physicians and engineers.  

 

To put it simply for you, more power is concentrated in fewer hands now than has ever been.  Remember this conversation is w/ respect to the US.  I'm not sure how familiar you are w/ our status quo.  I also disagree w/ your assumption that any job is reserved for intellectuals.  Politics and economics is more concerned with who you know than what you know.  I also don't know where you are going w/ your argument and how it relates to the topic at hand.  As for the quote you butchered, perhaps reading the whole sentence will help you put it in context.  If anything I would revise 'intellect' to 'perceived intellect'.  Another thing I don't get is what observations lead you to believe any form of decentralization is occurring.  All facts and appearances suggest the opposite.  

post #122 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post

How do you make an argument about the eternal existence of classes against my claim that class discrepancy is on the rise.  Try to engage the argument rather than making another.  You seem to be saying education and intellect is trending higher per capita relative to time and somehow is driven by the growth of white collar jobs.  I'm saying the opposite and a lot of data backs it up.  If anything your point supports the threads title since the US has increased the outsourcing of physicians and engineers.  

 

To put it simply for you, more power is concentrated in fewer hands now than has ever been.  Remember this conversation is w/ respect to the US.  I'm not sure how familiar you are w/ our status quo.  I also disagree w/ your assumption that any job is reserved for intellectuals.  Politics and economics is more concerned with who you know than what you know.  I also don't know where you are going w/ your argument and how it relates to the topic at hand.  As for the quote you butchered, perhaps reading the whole sentence will help you put it in context.  If anything I would revise 'intellect' to 'perceived intellect'.  Another thing I don't get is what observations lead you to believe any form of decentralization is occurring.  All facts and appearances suggest the opposite.  


I don't see how my point would support the thread title considering that it is arguing that the intelligence of kids are diminishing over time, whereas I argue that the push for intellectual jobs are in effect, increasing it. I also would like to see the data

 

I never once argued about the concentration of power so you can stop pushing that now. More concerned with who you know? Perhaps for the few outliers who possess connected family and friends. For everyone else, it has predominantly been through a tertiary education. 

 

I'll reiterate my point again. It is not my observations I'm basing decentralisation on, but the other guy's. He states that there has been a push for white collar jobs, and I assumed it would have meant a greater push for tertiary education. If a greater percentage of people are receiving a higher level of education, they will be more able to raise dissent against policies they don't like. As more people actively participate in the system, the power thereby should decentralise. The reason why policies are skewed to massive corporations are due to two main reasons: that's where the money is coming from and a willing submission from the uninspired people.

 

The increase of 'education and intellect' may not necessarily be fueled by white-collar jobs. I inferred that from his post. I would say that it is fueled by the growing desire to be in it.

 

Also, can you please clarify the phrase 'education and intellect in the hands of the few'. With the amount of current dissent I see, it's clearly not the case.

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beekeeper View Post

I believe that the below speeches of Ken Robinson regarding education are very interesting

 

http://www.ted.com/talks/sir_ken_robinson_bring_on_the_revolution.html

 

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

 

Saw this a while ago. It is indeed quite interesting


Edited by Cianyx - 10/27/10 at 11:59pm
post #123 of 163

Based on UK figures, children of Indian and Chinese/HK origins do better at school than UK born and bred children. Considering the rise of power and influence of India and China and the size of their economies, the US is rapidly heading for third in the league table of superpowers.

 

The British took a pretty stoic view of their loss of number 1 world power. It happened in a very piece meal way and then WWII ended it in a dramatic fashion. For the US, who have been number 1 for so long, it will just be a case of being overtaken. I wonder what that will do the American psyche?


Edited by Prog Rock Man - 10/28/10 at 2:11am
post #124 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

 For the US, who have been number 1 for so long, it will just be a case of being overtaken. I wonder what that will do the American psyche?



The problem with American education is that education has taken a backseat to indoctrination. In 1995, as a 35 y/o, I attended a trade school for HVAC, run by the local public school district. It was stated that this school is run by the standards set for high schools. Essential the folly was this: Play to the lowest common denominator, and nobody fails. What a waste of time. Sure I learned a lot, but tests were delayed, lessons were delayed, all because of the guys who cut classes. Then about once a week we had to attend the indoctrination classes. The themes varied, race, gender, sex orientation (lots of that), but overall, everybody is the same pounded in over and over. Life has taught me people are different. Individuals, not a teeming mass. All this while we're suposed to be learning HVAC.

 

The best schools I ever attended were run by the US Army. New information everyday, screw-ups were cast aside without ceremony, and it was the most efficient education I ever got. Getting the disruptors and slow learners out of the way was key.

Not surprisingly, one thing most public school teachers want is the authority to permanently remove disruptive students from their classrooms. I'd fully support that change.

post #125 of 163

Streaming based on ability and the removal of disruptibe pupils is definitely the way to go. 

post #126 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moontan13 View Post





The problem with American education is that education has taken a backseat to indoctrination. In 1995, as a 35 y/o, I attended a trade school for HVAC, run by the local public school district. It was stated that this school is run by the standards set for high schools. Essential the folly was this: Play to the lowest common denominator, and nobody fails. What a waste of time. Sure I learned a lot, but tests were delayed, lessons were delayed, all because of the guys who cut classes. Then about once a week we had to attend the indoctrination classes. The themes varied, race, gender, sex orientation (lots of that), but overall, everybody is the same pounded in over and over. Life has taught me people are different. Individuals, not a teeming mass. All this while we're suposed to be learning HVAC.

 

The best schools I ever attended were run by the US Army. New information everyday, screw-ups were cast aside without ceremony, and it was the most efficient education I ever got. Getting the disruptors and slow learners out of the way was key.

Not surprisingly, one thing most public school teachers want is the authority to permanently remove disruptive students from their classrooms. I'd fully support that change.



The problem is that you can throw people out of the military, but you can't throw people out of society (short of putting them in prison). That said, I disagree with your point about indoctrination- I never had any such class in High school (1999-2003)- and I frankly haven't talked anybody else who has. You might have just been in an unusual program. 

post #127 of 163


I think you're conflating the idea of superpower with education.  They're pretty separate things.  The US still has the best universities in the world and the smartest students from all over the world still go there for post secondary education.

 

Whether they will remain the superpower and whether that would be a good thing is something entirely different.  Personally I'm more attracted to non-superpower countries that enjoy a high quality of life and education (ie Germany, Canada, Switzerland...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

Based on UK figures, children of Indian and Chinese/HK origins do better at school than UK born and bred children. Considering the rise of power and influence of India and China and the size of their economies, the US is rapidly heading for third in the league table of superpowers.


Edited by rds - 10/28/10 at 10:11am
post #128 of 163

I was only meaning that India and China's attitudes to education are one of the reasons why they will overtake the US as global superpowers.

 

University rankings

 

1       Harvard University United States
96.1
99.7
72.4
34.5
98.7
98.8
  2 California Institute of Technology United States
96.0
97.7
54.6
83.7
98.0
99.9
  3 Massachusetts Institute of Technology United States
95.6
97.8
82.3
87.5
91.4
99.9
  4 Stanford University United States
94.3
98.3
29.5
64.3
98.1
99.2
  5 Princeton University United States
94.2
90.9
70.3
Data not supplied
95.4
99.9
  6 University of Cambridge United Kingdom
91.2
90.5
77.7
57.0
94.1
94.0
  6 University of Oxford United Kingdom
91.2
88.2
77.2
73.5
93.9
95.1
  8 University of California Berkeley United States
91.1
84.2
39.6
Data not supplied
99.3
97.8
  9 Imperial College London United Kingdom
90.6
89.2
90.0
92.9
94.5
88.3
  10 Yale University United States
89.5
92.1
59.2
Data not supplied
89.7
91.5
  11 University of California Los Angeles United States
87.7
83.0
48.1
Data not supplied
92.9
93.2
  12 University of Chicago United States
86.9
79.1
62.8
Data not supplied
87.9
96.9
  13 Johns Hopkins University United States
86.4
80.9
58.5
100.0
89.2
92.3
  14 Cornell University United States
83.9
82.2
62.4
34.7
88.8
88.1
  15 Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zurich Switzerland
83.4
77.5
93.7
Data not supplied
87.8
83.1
  15 University of Michigan United States
83.4
83.9
53.3
59.6
89.1
84.1
  17 University of Toronto Canada
82.0
75.8
Data not supplied
Data not supplied
87.9
82.2
  18 Columbia University United States
81.0
73.8
90.9
Data not supplied
73.8
92.6
  19 University of Pennsylvania United States
79.5
71.8
32.9
43.7
82.7
93.6
  20 Carnegie Mellon University United States
79.3
70.3
39.1
53.7
79.3
95.7
  21 University of Hong Kong Hong Kong
79.2
68.4
91.4
56.5
71.4
96.1
  22 University College London United Kingdom
78.4
74.0
90.8
39.0
81.6
80.6
  23 University of Washington United States
78.0
68.2
49.0
32.8
77.1
95.9
  24 Duke University United States
76.5
66.8
49.4
100.0
71.5
92.3
  25 Northwestern University United States
75.9
64.5
60.5
Data not supplied
68.8
95.3
  26 University of Tokyo Japan
75.6
87.7
18.4
Data not supplied
91.9
58.1
  27 Georgia Institute of Technology United States
75.3
67.9
73.2
95.1
72.6
83.2
  28 Pohang University of Science and Technology Republic of Korea
75.1
69.5
32.6
100.0
62.5
96.5
  29 University of California Santa Barbara United States
75.0
56.6
64.3
89.8
68.0
98.8
  30 University of British Columbia Canada
73.8
65.1
93.3
42.6
74.8
80.3
  30 University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill United States
73.8
70.9
21.5
50.2
75.1
85.0
  32 University of California San Diego United States
73.2
59.8
31.6
51.8
76.3
90.8
  33 University of Illinois - Urbana United States
73.0
68.1
55.9
Data not supplied
80.9
72.9
  34 National University of Singapore Singapore
72.9
65.5
97.8
40.5
72.6
78.7
  35 McGill University Canada
71.7
69.0
85.9
Data not supplied
74.9
69.0
  36 University of Melbourne Australia
71.0
58.7
88.0
47.7
69.2
83.3
  37 Peking University China
70.7
76.4
68.6
98.6
61.3
72.2
  38 Washington University Saint Louis United States
69.9
58.9
56.4
Data not supplied
63.0
88.6
  39 Ecole Polytechnique France
69.5
57.9
77.9
Data not supplied
56.1
91.4
  40 University of Edinburgh United Kingdom
69.2
59.9
67.3
42.2
61.9
86.8
  41 Hong Kong University of Science and Technology Hong Kong
69.0
50.4
97.4
64.1
51.8
98.2
  42 Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris France
68.6
66.8
44.9
30.7
48.2
95.7
  43 Australian National University Australia
67.0
51.9
93.9
Data not supplied
62.4
81.0
  43 University of Göttingen Germany
67.0
57.3
44.5
31.7
55.9
92.5
  43 Karolinska Institute Sweden
67.0
65.8
Data not supplied
73.3
72.7
62.3
  43 University of Wisconsin United States
67.0
55.5
43.7
Data not supplied
64.6
83.4
  47 Rice University United States
66.9
57.4
31.2
29.2
50.6
99.1
  48 École Polytechnique Federale of Lausanne Switzerland
66.5
55.0
100.0
38.0
56.1
83.8
  49 University of Science and Technology of China China
66.0
57.5
Data not supplied
30.3
48.6
92.7
  49 University of California Irvine United States
66.0
49.4
66.3
Data not supplied
54.7
91.6
  51 Vanderbilt University United States
65.9
64.9
22.1
84.2
59.5
78.1
  52 University of Minnesota United States
65.6
57.6
23.0
Data not supplied
69.1
76.4
  53 Tufts University United States
65.2
64.1
28.3
Data not supplied
52.3
83.9
  54 University of California Davis United States
65.0
57.3
60.5
48.0
70.7
68.8
  55 Brown University United States
64.9
59.7
60.5
Data not supplied
57.0
77.7
  56 University of Massachusetts United States
64.7
61.3
22.6
53.9
72.6
67.9
  57 Kyoto University Japan
64.6
78.9
18.4
67.1
77.7
46.3
  58 Tsinghua University China
64.2
74.9
43.0
97.8
66.6
52.7
  59 Boston University United States
64.0
53.6
38.1
29.6
51.9
91.4
  60 New York University United States
63.9
62.0
31.8
Data not supplied
50.7
82.9
  61 University of Munich Germany
63.0
59.1
43.1
40.4
57.5
76.4
  61 Emory University United States
63.0
63.4
52.3
Data not supplied
48.4
77.8
  63 University of Notre Dame United States
62.8
56.4
35.6
Data not supplied
45.1
89.1
  64 University of Pittsburgh United States
62.7
58.5
25.2
37.9
58.3
78.3
  65 Case Western Reserve University United States
62.2
67.2
56.5
Data not supplied
53.8
66.0
  66 Ohio State University United States
62.1
63.5
64.0
Data not supplied
54.9
67.2
  67 University of Colorado United States
61.6
46.4
31.7
Data not supplied
58.1
83.4
  68 University of Bristol United Kingdom
61.4
49.6
67.2
36.2
53.1
80.9
  68 University of California Santa Cruz United States
61.4
38.3
16.7
Data not supplied
50.4
99.6
  68 Yeshiva University United States
61.4
63.5
53.3
Data not supplied
46.7
74.4
  71 University of Sydney Australia
61.2
49.8
89.6
90.8
61.9
64.3
  72 University of Virginia United States
61.1
62.0
42.2
Data not supplied
55.4
68.6
  73 University of Adelaide Australia
60.7
46.5
87.5
52.7
38.8
90.5
  73 University of Southern California United States
60.7
65.4
31.2
Data not supplied
48.7
71.9
  75 William & Mary United States
60.4
53.1
20.9
Data not supplied
36.1
95.6
  76 Trinity College Dublin Ireland
60.3
47.7
84.2
31.6
45.3
84.4
  77 King's College London United Kingdom
59.7
48.5
85.9
44.1
54.5
72.1
  78 Stony Brook University United States
59.6
48.5
52.2
Data not supplied
43.6
85.8
  79 Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology Republic of Korea
59.5
71.3
36.7
100.0
63.4
45.5
  79 University of Sussex United Kingdom
59.5
42.4
72.8
29.1
42.4
91.6
  81 University of Queensland Australia Australia
59.1
51.8
74.2
57.1
53.4
69.0
  81 University of York United Kingdom
59.1
47.9
66.6
36.2
46.2
81.9
  83 Ruprecht Karl University of Heidelberg Germany
59.0
59.2
63.4
39.1
47.5
70.3
  83 University of Utah United States
59.0
55.8
22.5
Data not supplied
54.2
72.0
  85 Durham University United Kingdom
58.9
39.8
65.7
33.9
44.1
91.0
  86 London School of Economics and Political Science United Kingdom
58.3
62.4
99.5
38.4
56.2
51.6
  87 University of Manchester United Kingdom
58.0
56.5
79.1
39.0
56.2
59.2
  88 Royal Holloway, University of London United Kingdom
57.9
37.7
92.9
30.5
36.2
93.2
  89 Lund University Sweden
57.8
46.3
56.8
33.2
60.8
67.6
  90 University of Zurich Switzerland
57.7
56.6
87.9
43.8
47.0
65.0
  90 University of Southampton United Kingdom
57.7
50.8
69.0
37.7
47.8
72.9
  90 Wake Forest University United States
57.7
54.6
24.4
Data not supplied
42.9
79.2
  93 McMaster University Canada
57.6
44.7
Data not supplied
Data not supplied
58.7
68.5
  94 University College Dublin Ireland
57.5
42.4
87.0
Data not supplied
36.6
86.3
  95 University of Basel Switzerland
57.3
50.2
91.3
45.8
37.1
78.3
  95 George Washington University United States
57.3
60.6
39.6
Data not supplied
43.1
70.2
  95 University of Arizona United States
57.3
52.4
21.9
84.2
52.2
70.1
  98 University of Maryland College Park United States
57.2
45.4
35.4
Data not supplied
48.6
79.2
  99 Dartmouth College United States
57.1
44.7
31.0
Data not supplied
49.2
79.7
  100 ENS de Lyon France
57.0
51.1
37.6
26.1
34.4
88.8
  101 Technical University of Munich Germany
56.9
50.4
85.3
Data not supplied
43.2
71.2
  102 University of Helsinki Finland
56.6
49.0
24.2
30.2
51.4
75.4
  103 University of St. Andrews United Kingdom
56.5
44.8
85.7
32.6
47.7
72.9
  104 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute United States
56.4
50.5
48.0
Data not supplied
54.6
64.9
  105 Rutgers the State University of New Jersey United States
56.3
53.4
26.8
Data not supplied
64.7
55.7
  106 Purdue University United States
56.2
57.0
62.6
Data not supplied
67.8
43.9
  107 University of Cape Town South Africa
56.1
36.6
83.3
Data not supplied
42.1
82.8
  107 National Tsing Hua University Taiwan
56.1
52.2
34.1
50.2
52.6
66.9
  109 Seoul National University Republic of Korea
56.0
62.3
44.9
43.0
54.1
54.6
  109 Pennsylvania State University United States
56.0
46.3
19.9
44.0
49.2
77.6
  111 Hong Kong Baptist University Hong Kong
55.6
32.9
71.8
26.7
32.5
97.6
  112 Tokyo Institute of Technology Japan
55.4
62.9
24.8
60.5
63.4
45.5
  112 Bilkent University Turkey
55.4
34.3
47.7
32.4
36.1
95.7
  114 Eindhoven University of Technology Netherlands
55.3
55.4
44.9
99.8
51.7
56.9
  115 National Taiwan University Taiwan
55.2
50.3
29.2
35.7
59.0
61.6
  115 University of Hawaii United States
55.2
38.3
34.2
Data not supplied
47.6
81.0
  117 University of California Riverside United States
55.1
38.6
63.0
30.5
47.4
78.3
  118 University of Geneva Switzerland
55.0
46.6
95.7
32.7
49.7
63.1
  119 Catholic University of Leuven Belgium
54.8
57.7
29.6
97.7
62.9
45.2
  120 Nanjing University China
54.6
52.2
50.2
43.4
46.2
66.0
  120 Queen Mary, University of London United Kingdom
54.6
39.7
91.0
38.9
44.1
73.5
  122 Technical University of Denmark Denmark
54.5
46.2
64.0
95.5
46.9
64.6
  122 Michigan State University United States
54.5
50.4
30.4
Data not supplied
52.7
63.7
  124 Ghent University Belgium
54.4
52.8
24.7
97.1
59.1
52.8
  124 Leiden University Netherlands
54.4
47.3
40.0
100.0
54.9
59.3
  124 Lancaster University United Kingdom
54.4
43.5
73.8
28.8
41.9
74.9
  127 University of Alberta Canada
54.3
53.7
71.6
44.5
58.0
49.7
  128 University of Glasgow United Kingdom
54.2
45.6
55.1
61.0
50.3
65.1
  129 Stockholm University Sweden
54.0
36.9
Data not supplied
31.7
49.2
75.9
  130 University of Victoria Canada
53.4
32.9
Data not supplied
27.4
48.3
79.1
  130 Osaka University Japan
53.4
61.7
20.1
73.4
63.4
40.0
  132 University of Freiburg Germany
53.3
52.4
46.2
79.8
41.4
64.3
  132 Tohoku University Japan
53.3
60.3
20.1
82.3
62.5
41.2
  132 University of Iowa United States
53.3
48.6
31.7
Data not supplied
59.8
54.8
  135 University of Bergen Norway
52.7
39.9
66.6
41.5
42.1
73.1
  136 University of Lausanne Switzerland
52.6
43.1
84.1
42.5
50.5
59.1
  137 University of Sheffield United Kingdom
52.5
48.9
62.7
40.3
49.2
58.4
  138 University of Montreal Canada
52.4
56.1
Data not supplied
Data not supplied
49.4
51.9
  139 VU University Amsterdam Netherlands
52.3
47.6
30.6
81.4
51.6
58.5
  140 Pierre and Marie Curie University France
52.2
51.9
30.7
26.4
37.2
71.5
  140 University of Dundee United Kingdom
52.2
34.1
54.4
49.3
41.0
79.3
  142 University of Barcelona Spain
52.1
34.1
22.3
30.0
33.7
91.9
  143 Utrecht University Netherlands
52.0
43.4
52.6
55.3
53.0
58.8
  144 Wageningen University and Research Center Netherlands
51.9
58.5
24.3
Data not supplied
48.8
53.0
  145 University of Auckland New Zealand
51.8
34.8
94.3
61.1
39.2
71.8
  145 University of Birmingham United Kingdom
51.8
50.3
73.8
34.8
50.7
52.1
  147 Alexandria University Egypt
51.6
29.5
19.3
36.0
28.0
99.8
  147 Uppsala University Sweden
51.6
49.6
77.9
39.5
62.2
40.7
  149 Hong Kong Polytechnic University Hong Kong
51.4
39.4
82.9
57.2
45.7
62.4
  149 University of Aberdeen United Kingdom
51.4
37.8
86.1
47.0
45.2
64.6
  151 Delft University of Technology Netherlands
51.3
55.5
47.4
99.4
67.7
29.0
  152 University of New South Wales Australia
51.2
49.5
70.7
60.0
48.9
51.2
  152 Birkbeck, University of London United Kingdom
51.2
41.2
88.5
27.4
35.8
70.6
  152 Newcastle University United Kingdom
51.2
42.7
80.5
31.1
42.8
63.6
  155 Pompeu Fabra University Spain
51.1
35.0
44.1
40.0
33.0
84.7
  156 Indiana University United States
51.0
48.5
37.7
Data not supplied
42.5
63.2
  156 Iowa State University United States
51.0
49.3
23.2
49.6
49.6
58.2
  158 Medical College of Georgia United States
50.7
67.3
16.3
50.1
41.7
48.9
  159 Erasmus University Rotterdam Netherlands
50.4
39.4
58.6
Data not supplied
43.6
65.5
  159 University of Delaware United States
50.4
38.4
16.8
100.0
51.9
61.3
  161 Arizona State University United States
50.3
43.0
24.1
Data not supplied
44.1
66.9
  161 Boston College United States
50.3
40.1
31.6
Data not supplied
33.6
78.0
  163 National Sun Yat-Sen University Taiwan
50.2
46.1
21.3
37.5
50.6
58.9
  164 Georgetown University United States
50.1
65.1
24.7
Data not supplied
44.7
45.0
  165 University of Amsterdam Netherlands
50.0
42.5
38.2
38.8
49.2
60.2
  165 University of Liverpool United Kingdom
50.0
40.8
59.8
40.6
47.8
59.6
  167 Aarhus University Denmark
49.9
38.1
33.4
61.5
55.6
57.3
  168 University of Würzburg Germany
49.8
48.7
40.3
Data not supplied
40.9
60.4
  168 University of Leeds United Kingdom
49.8
46.2
50.0
38.3
48.0
55.6
  170 University of Groningen Netherlands
49.7
41.7
35.5
34.2
56.4
54.1
  171 Sun Yat-sen University China
49.6
46.2
29.3
41.2
34.7
70.2
  172 Johann Wolfgang Goethe University Frankfurt am Main Germany
49.4
39.2
56.1
41.6
37.3
69.5
  173 Bielefeld University Germany
49.3
39.9
Data not supplied
Data not supplied
35.7
70.4
  174 Nanyang Technological University Singapore
49.0
43.6
96.3
40.0
51.7
45.0
  174 University of East Anglia United Kingdom
49.0
42.1
62.8
29.7
40.4
62.8
  174 University of Nottingham United Kingdom
49.0
46.8
74.8
38.4
44.1
52.5
  177 University of Copenhagen Denmark
48.8
44.1
45.8
26.1
45.7
58.3
  178 Monash University Australia
48.5
39.4
87.1
40.8
38.8
60.5
  178 Humboldt University of Berlin Germany
48.5
50.9
46.1
27.8
44.5
52.0
  178 University of Bonn Germany
48.5
46.8
46.8
29.4
33.8
65.3
  181 National Chiao Tung University Taiwan
48.3
53.2
57.9
98.7
54.4
32.9
  182 RWTH Aachen University Germany
48.2
50.0
63.8
56.6
42.5
48.9
  183 Middle East Technical University Turkey
47.7
39.5
27.2
43.9
39.5
66.4
  184 University of Exeter United Kingdom
47.6
40.4
62.8
32.2
42.5
57.9
  185 University of Twente Netherlands
47.5
49.9
62.4
49.8
48.3
42.0
  186 University of Konstanz Germany
47.3
42.7
93.6
Data not supplied
40.1
51.3
  187 University of Innsbruck Austria
47.2
37.9
99.5
35.0
34.8
60.2
  187 Karlsruhe Institute of Technology Germany
47.2
45.0
47.3
40.0
35.4
60.7
  189 Eberhard Karls University, Tübingen Germany
47.0
45.9
57.8
32.3
36.3
57.3
  190 Yonsei University Republic of Korea
46.9
43.0
28.0
40.4
48.7
52.2
  190 Drexel University United States
46.9
45.0
60.6
27.4
35.9
58.2
  190 University of Cincinnati United States
46.9
43.6
18.9
32.5
40.4
61.5
  193 Dalhousie University Canada
46.8
41.6
44.9
Data not supplied
50.2
48.8
  193 Royal Institute of Technology Sweden
46.8
49.1
64.2
100.0
56.2
29.2
  195 University of Vienna Austria
46.7
47.6
63.2
27.0
45.7
45.6
  196 Kent State University United States
46.5
33.5
15.9
26.3
33.3
76.8
  197 Zhejiang University China
46.4
54.6
29.6
70.3
41.3
44.3
  197 University of Illinois - Chicago United States
46.4
57.8
51.8
Data not supplied
46.8
34.7
  199 Simon Fraser University Canada
46.2
32.9
51.9
37.9
44.2
60.2
  199 Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences Sweden
46.2
43.3
Data not supplied
99.9
49.5
41.7

Source Times Higher Education


Edited by Prog Rock Man - 10/28/10 at 10:59am
post #129 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthWolfeCND View Post

I really don't see it as anyone's fault. An, no, those graphics usually presented by some organizations are, for the most part useless; more, they are one of the worst culprits - for government statistics are one of the main reasons behind the education nightmare. The decline is general, in all western societies. I find myself traveling around the world (mostly Canada, USA, UK, Scandinavia, Western Russia, Iberian Peninsula), and everywhere is the same horrid seen. The fault lies at Democracies feet. By insisting on universal-mandatory education, the level could only decrease, and it will get worst. Teachers have to lower standards of classes to that of the less capable students, this leads the more capable students to "drop-out", loose interest, ADS...

 

More dramatic is the fact that many governments have, in practice, abolished failure, flunking, and any other hurdles that stand in the way of statistics, every student getting a diploma, electoral propaganda...

This is not just crippling all Public Education institutions, but, more seriously, crippling the students it claims to be giving a "fare-chance". After years of doing nothing, learning nothing, having no obstacles; the students are left with a piece of paper, and the "real-world", which they have not been equipped to deal with (the blind leading the stupid).

 

Solution: It's too late for the Nation-States to turn back the clock, and implement real education. The very parents that see this "rise of the idiots", would be the first to revolt if their kids start getting bad notes, or, god forbid it, start flunking - no elected government will risk alienating so many peop...voters...

 

If you want a good education for your kids, do like me - Great private schools in the UK and Switzerland, or other countries with prestigious private education institutions... (US school system is way too toxic these days - religion, political correctness, Race issues...)



i very much agrree, the democretisation of education is merely pandering to the idiot majority.  this whole idea that all kids of a certain age sholuld be at the same level and god forbid you fail a child, the bar gets set ever lower.  having been to a state school, even though it was a rather decient one with a fairly grand past (800+ years old) i would never have kids unless i could afford to send them to a public school (yes, it is the correct term.)

 

 

of course if i had kids and they were retards (okay so i actually mean completely average) then im sure the state system would suit them fine but if your kids bright its no place for them.

post #130 of 163

http://utotherescue.blogspot.com/2010/10/class-war.html

post #131 of 163
Quote:


 

Class War

 
By Catherine Liu

We are in the midst of a class war, but only Fox News dares to use that scandalous expression. According to its pundits, it’s the “havenots” with their healthcare reforms and “entitlements,” public pensions and other soul sapping “scams” who are attacking the “haves.” At least Right-wing pundits aren’t afraid of the word “class.” Liberals, Leftists and Progressives are about as eager to talk about class as they are to undergo voluntary root canal surgery. The “haves” are much more aggressive than the “havenots” about guaranteeing that they have more and more, and the “havenots” have less and less. The “haves” continue to militate against public inefficiencies while Progressive economists and analysts have tried to show that the diminished powers of the state and the financialization of global economic activity are responsible for our slow burn crisis and the concomitant loss of consumer and political confidence. The “haves” may have lost a few skirmishes after October 2008, but you can be sure that they remain vigilant and aggressive about their long-term agenda. On a Federal level, the “haves” have targeted social and public services of every sort, from Federally funded after-school care to Social Security. At the state level, they relish the idea of privatizing public universities, whose successes have been based on decades of public investment. They have also succeeded in securing profitable arrangements between privately owned testing companies and public schools, where the demand for accountability has produced a need for ever changing instruments by which teacher and student performance are measured. They continue to argue for school vouchers and school choice and they continue to make public school teachers and unions feel the heat of their reformist ardor.



Kevin Phillips, Barbara Ehrenreich, Naomi Klein, Thomas Frank and this blog’s Chris Newfield have all been making the argument about the war against the middle class. It’s time to understand the “crisis in the Humanities” (its most recent iteration was launched by Stanley Fish in the pages of the New York Times) in the context of a larger class war. As usual Fish provokes with his, “the Humanities don’t do any good, but they should be supported nevertheless.” He appears both tough-minded and pragmatic. According to Fish’s numbers, the Humanities may be profit centers in high tuition private Universities, but not the case in of low-tuition public ones. No worries! He wants us to stop whining about how much good we do in the Humanities, and urges us to appeal instead to the historical mission of research universities to support authentic research and researchers. Scientific and humanities research are open-ended enterprises and should be measured by internal standards of specialists: as any historian of the modern University can tell you, preserving autonomous research values is vital to any institution that aspires to the status of “university.” Let us show then, that National University and University of Phoenix are not actually universities because they do not support research in any way.
  
Much as I wish many of our upper administrators would read Fish and take him seriously, I’m afraid that they could ignore the appeal to their better historical sensibilities and derive a very different “takeway” from his article. They could very well say that it is perfectly all right to keep the Humanities in expensive, private institutions, because it is in these institutions that the Humanities are more economically viable. At private institutions, gifted and well-heeled and well-funded students will prosper like well-tended orchids. Large public institutions cannot afford to maintain the conditions where Humanities are taught: it only makes economic sense that heartier, less rarefied students should be taught to survive in less climate controlled conditions. As I argue in my forthcoming book,The American Idyll: Anti-Elitism as Cultural Critique (University of Iowa Press), since 1945, leaders in higher education have tried to reserve the study of the Humanities and Liberal Arts for an economic and cultural elite. President Obama’s focus on community colleges does nothing to challenge the assumption that while some students will be able to study for pleasure and curiosity, the majority will be consigned to pursuing higher education as a form of job training.
 

Higher education is functioning as an efficient sorting system that allows for the rationalization of entrenched inequalities. Neglect in regulating for profit education during the era of Bush has allowed for ITT Educational Services, Inc. and UC Regent Richard Blum to make a tidy profit from the bottom end of the higher ed hierarchy. Until recently, it looked as if for profit universities in which Blum has deep financial and philosophical investments would be able to make handsome profits from educating the neglected low performing students who happen to be eligible for generous Federal student loans.  For profit higher ed is just one part of Blum’s spectacularly successful portfolio. Will Parrish details Blum’s ability to use opportunities produced by “strong nation-state interventions” to generate massive wealth for hedge fund and himself. We linked to the Peter Byrne article about Blum’s conflict of interest in being a UC Regent and a major and we do so again.

From the very top of the higher ed hierarchy, elite students, global creative and finance leaders will emerge to found Facebook, work in what remains of high finance and or devote themselves to cutting edge cultural and philanthropic institutions. Land-grant public universities educate the large majority of highly qualified middle class students for lives as middle managers and competent professionals. State universities train their future employees. Community colleges train pink collar workers for service jobs. If SUNY Albany is cutting its Russian and French programs and UC Irvine is allowing its French and Italian department to deliquesce, elite private institutions are said to be gurgling with joy and savoring the opportunities for poaching and profiting in national research rankings from the defeat if not disappearance of their public competition. Poaching has already begun and it will sharpen the very hierarchy and divide in public/private higher ed that Clark Kerr, for all his faults, sought to undo. Within the UC itself, a group of professors from UC San Diego wrote to UC President Mark Yudof in order to suggest the imposition of an internal pecking order among the ten campuses. “Top tier” campuses would enjoy greater autonomy and greater access to funding, while lower tier campuses like UC Riverside, UC Merced and UC Santa Cruz would be allowed to gather crumbs falling from the tables of the great while fumbling with the UC imprimatur for a sense of mission and identity. (In the spirit of full disclosure, the UCSD professors generously relegated UC Irvine where I teach, to the middle tier.)

Chris Newfield’s argument that war on the middle class is a war against a tolerant/ liberal/progressive world needs an Ehrenreichian caveat. Barbara Ehrenreich wrote Fear of Falling during the recession of the 1980s. In this book, she demonstrated how the undoing of the social safety net was changing the American middle class and making it more anxious and more conservative. In fear, the middle class clings to its own relative privileges: access to better education and safer neighborhoods. In times of economic crisis, it is a class particularly susceptible to adopting political attitudes that are ungenerous and anti-egalitarian in spirit. The more economically vulnerable the middle class feels itself to be, the more politically conservative it becomes. The hegemonic logic of neoliberalism tries to appeal to an anxious and objectively besieged middle class. Research professors and public sector retirees are just latest cast of characters including welfare mothers and NEA artists that conservatives love to evoke in their morality play about “the people” and the “parasites.”

In the drama of outrage and indignation, conservatives fuel a general animus against any group of people who might enjoy some modicum of freedom from mercurial market forces. Economic elites have tried with different degrees of success to impose an instrumentalizing attitude towards all human activity because they think no one should be free of economic anxiety, ever. The hard numbers show that the elites are succeeding in transferring the nation’s wealth to itself: UC Berkeley economist Emmanuel Saez has shown that by 2008, the top 10% of American earners took home 48.2%  of the nation’s annual wages. As public education and public services are hollowed out, those numbers are even more dramatically skewed in favor of the ultra-rich at the expense of the middle and working classes. The middle class that could once think of itself as part of the “haves” is finding itself in an increasingly precarious position. It is not an exaggeration to say that it has been proletarianized.

Chris Newfield’s point bears repeating: in times of economic prosperity as in times of economic crisis, cuts in public funding to the UC are touted as the only way to produce efficiencies in higher education. In Great Britain right now, Eton-educated, pasty-faced young Tories are trying to defeat the bogeyman of deficit spending by turning 490,000 public sector workers onto the unemployment rolls. Theirs is a vicious and hyperbolic version of neoliberalism’s shock doctrine. Paul Krugman believes that the Tories are victims of freemarket groupthink and that their economic policies will prove disastrous in both the short term and the long term. Do the Tories really believe that their budget cuts will suddenly make the private sector so effervescent that half a million jobs will be created out of the thin air of free markets?

In France, the protests are about much more than the changes the Sarkozy government is trying to impose on the French retirement age. Le Monde reports that a mass political mobilization is taking place capable of expressing complex forms of political solidarity, across lines of class and race. Protestors are rejecting Sarkozy’s peculiar form of market authoritarianism. The recent deportation of the Roma from France was allegedly welcomed by the ordinary Frenchman. Sarkozy may have staked too much on the toxic blend of racism and economic resentment to bolster his extreme attempts at producing pension reform. No single political party is able to embody all of the demands of the protestors, and it does not matter. Unfortunately, the English language media have focused on the anger of “students” rather than the grievances of workers. Almost all of the photographs we find in American media feature angry attractive middle-class white students who are more easily dismissed as pampered citizens of a welfare state. The reality of the French protests is more nuanced: this is an authentic, mass Left movement, with deep economic commitments to the forms of resistance it is creating. Most critically, it has mobilized the young, but is not a simply “a student movement.”

The struggle to control the terms by which we speak of higher education is taking place across major and minor theaters of the class war: the “crisis of the Humanities” is only one front in a larger battle. It is critical to put the present budgetary crisis in public Universities in the larger political and economic framework of a continuing class war the terms of which have been up until now controlled by reactionary forces.
post #132 of 163

The public sector in the UK is too inefficient and too big and as such often stifles the private sector, which struggles to cope with the loss of skilled workers to pointless beaurocatic jobs and that very beaurocracy.

 

Most disappointing of all is the Liberal Democratic party going back on its pledges with regards to tuition fees. making further education more expensive clearly affects the poor more.

post #133 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

The public sector in the UK is too inefficient and too big and as such often stifles the private sector, which struggles to cope with the loss of skilled workers to pointless beaurocatic jobs and that very beaurocracy.

 

Most disappointing of all is the Liberal Democratic party going back on its pledges with regards to tuition fees. making further education more expensive clearly affects the poor more.



well the lib dems have a track record of saying they stuff about fees and then going erm we didnt mean it.  tbh if they want to pay for uni's make them all free and just make them harder to get into.

 

 

oh and to the the chap who mentions the french protesting, well duh, theyre french, going on strike is a national pastime.

post #134 of 163

What IMO has been neglected in the rush to Uni status is further education colleges. The vocational training of our hairdressers, plumbers, builders etc has instead been sorted out quickly and cheaply by immigration from eastern Europe. I am against taking labour away from other countries and potentially hindering their development. Our education system should be for growing our own.

post #135 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric View Post





The problem is that you can throw people out of the military, but you can't throw people out of society (short of putting them in prison). That said, I disagree with your point about indoctrination- I never had any such class in High school (1999-2003)- and I frankly haven't talked anybody else who has. You might have just been in an unusual program. 



One can't get thrown out of the military by failing a class. If a person can't cut it academicly, they are counseled, re-evaluated and are given another job to train for. If a person is disruptive, they give you a job with a class that nobody fails. 11B. Leg Infantry. Often though a disruptor is re-cycled to the same class, but has to wait for another class to open. During that wait the person is assigned to a post clean-up platoon. The real motivator is the DD214 with Honorable Discharge written on it.

Too bad so many don't realize the value of High School Diploma as well.

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