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post #106 of 163

I was asking the teacher why an increase in intelligence would result in a detriment to democracy. I'm pretty sure the old layout had a 'delete' button


Edited by Cianyx - 10/26/10 at 11:51pm
post #107 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cianyx View Post

I was asking the teacher why an increase in intelligence would result in a detriment to democracy. I'm pretty sure the old layout had a 'delete' button


I believe he was referring to the rise of an elite oligarchy.  Even Leninism had a Vanguard.  I really can't comment further on that point w/ respect to current trends w/o getting into political views and ideology.  Obviously a ruling class is contrary to a Democratic system.  Many feel the current trend is headed in such a a direction.  A Legislative review in concert w/ polling data can help illustrate the point.  

post #108 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

 

 

 

 

 

Student Performance on the Reading, Scientific and Mathematical Literacy Scales, mean score, 2006
Countries are ranked highest to lowest score

 
Countries ranked by reading scores. In the other tables below, countries are ranked by mathematics and science scores
See also notes below the tables.
Rank

Country

Reading

Maths

Science

1 Korea 556 547 522
2 Finland 547 548 563
3 Canada 527 527 534
4 New Zealand 521 522 530
5 Ireland 517 501 508
6 Australia 513 520 527
7 Poland1 508 495 498
8 Sweden 507 502 503
9 Netherlands 507 531 525
10 Belgium 501 520 510
11 Switzerland 499 530 512
12 Japan 498 523 531
13 United Kingdom 495 495 515
14 Germany 495 504 516
15 Denmark 494 513 496
16 OECD average 492 498 500
17 Austria 490 505 511
18 France 488 496 495
19 Iceland 484 506 491
20 Norway 484 490 487
21 Czech Republic1 483 510 513
22 Hungary 482 491 504
23 Luxembourg 479 490 486
24 Portugal1 472 466 474
25 Italy 469 462 475
26 Slovak Republic 466 492 488
27 Spain 461 480 488
28 Greece 460 459 473
29 Turkey1 447 424 424
30 Russian Federation 440 476 479
31 Mexico 410 406 410
32 Brazil1 393 370 390
33 United States .. 474 489

Rank

Country

Maths

Science

Reading

1 Finland 548 563 547
2 Korea 547 522 556
3 Netherlands 531 525 507
4 Switzerland 530 512 499
5 Canada 527 534 527
6 Japan 523 531 498
7 New Zealand 522 530 521
8 Belgium 520 510 501
9 Australia 520 527 513
10 Denmark 513 496 494
11 Czech Republic1 510 513 483
12 Iceland 506 491 484
13 Austria 505 511 490
14 Germany 504 516 495
15 Sweden 502 503 507
16 Ireland 501 508 517
17 OECD average 498 500 492
18 France 496 495 488
19 United Kingdom 495 515 495
20 Poland1 495 498 508
21 Slovak Republic 492 488 466
22 Hungary 491 504 482
23 Luxembourg 490 486 479
24 Norway 490 487 484
25 Spain 480 488 461
26 Russian Federation 476 479 440
27 United States 474 489 ..
28 Portugal1 466 474 472
29 Italy 462 475 469
30 Greece 459 473 460
31 Turkey1 424 424 447
32 Mexico 406 410 410
33 Brazil1 370 390 393

Rank

Country

Science

Reading

Maths

1 Finland 563 547 548
2 Canada 534 527 527
3 Japan 531 498 523
4 New Zealand 530 521 522
5 Australia 527 513 520
6 Netherlands 525 507 531
7 Korea 522 556 547
8 Germany 516 495 504
9 United Kingdom 515 495 495
10 Czech Republic1 513 483 510
11 Switzerland 512 499 530
12 Austria 511 490 505
13 Belgium 510 501 520
14 Ireland 508 517 501
15 Hungary 504 482 491
16 Sweden 503 507 502
17 OECD average 500 492 498
18 Poland1 498 508 495
19 Denmark 496 494 513
20 France 495 488 496
21 Iceland 491 484 506
22 United States 489 .. 474
23 Slovak Republic 488 466 492
24 Spain 488 461 480
25 Norway 487 484 490
26 Luxembourg 486 479 490
27 Russian Federation 479 440 476
28 Italy 475 469 462
29 Portugal1 474 472 466
30 Greece 473 460 459
31 Turkey1 424 447 424
32 Mexico 410 410 406
33 Brazil1 390 393 370

 NOTES:

These tables show student performance on the reading, scientific and mathematical literacy scales, mean score, measured in 2006, and reported in OECD's Education at a Glance 2009.

Students were tested at age 15 and therefore approaching the end of compulsory schooling.

1In these countries, tertiary-type A attainment includes all types of tertiary level degrees.
 





 
 

 

Source Country Rankings  2009 OECD



No question about the math at least. Some American students came to our school(grade 11), and though we were in the same age, what they were learning were years behind what we are learning. SAT math is too easy for me even though my math is considered 'above average' here in Korea(I can get a perfect score if I study for like few weeks, and some actually have) 

 

On the other hand, the passion for parents to make their kids study more is actually becoming a social problem, and much of the household income goes to fund private tutoring(math, english, korean etc). I have never been to a English speaking country, my experience with native English spearkers is extremely limited, but here I am, writing and reading English just like you(actually, my listening and speaking is bad and I agreed to meet with Shigzeo a few weeks later and I'm quite worried). How much private tutoring did this cost? I'd say around $30~40k my parents spent to teach me this much English. (another $30k for math, and another $10k for Korean)

 

Result? 1) I had to stay up until 3 in the morning(and I have to wake up at 6) for English debate preparation--for a week. There are two debates next month. 2) It took me approx 10 months for me to get a HSK 6 since I first learned how to pronounce bo po mo fo, and this costed like $0.5k

 

(don't get me wrong, not every family in Korea is like this, but a lot are--and my school is actually a foreign language high school specializing in teaching languages)

 

Life is different here as a student


Edited by yooss - 10/27/10 at 12:23am
post #109 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post

I believe he was referring to the rise of an elite oligarchy.  Even Leninism had a Vanguard.  I really can't comment further on that point w/ respect to current trends w/o getting into political views and ideology.  Obviously a ruling class is contrary to a Democratic system.  Many feel the current trend is headed in such a a direction.  A Legislative review in concert w/ polling data can help illustrate the point.  

I still don't think that an intellectual society would present much of a problem to democracy. It is not often that intellectuals share the same opinion to the extent of dissolving the democratic system. If anything, it adds scrutiny. I'll drop this for now though.


Edited by Cianyx - 10/27/10 at 12:45am
post #110 of 163

For intellectual read more educated in an environment where education is appreciated. How that threatens democracy is beyond me. It is those who reject education and are more interested in voting for a pop idol who are a far greater risk to democracy.

post #111 of 163
Thread Starter 

This is the lead from an article the current leading newspaper in my city today, but IMO it could be from any city at any time:

"Facing a multimillion-dollar budget hole for next year, the [insert your city here] school superintendent said Tuesday she is starting to plan for layoffs and program cuts.
Speaking to the [insert your city here] Assembly, Superintendent [Jane Doe] said the district is looking at about a $20 million shortfall, based on flat funding from the state.
"There will be program cuts. There will be layoffs," she said. "We will be going through exercises from now until January looking for budget cuts," she said, examining programs, talking to union leaders and others"

How many times have we read an article that starts out similar to this?

 

As far as democracy goes, putting school funding in the hands of local and/or state voters and politicians seems like a bad application of it, as almost everyone votes their wallet unless they have school-age children and are directly affected.

 

BTW, we're discussing policy here, not politics or ideologies.


Edited by grokit - 10/27/10 at 3:55am
post #112 of 163

My experience, I have a child at school, so do all of my friends and I have worked with a school planning programmes for disruptive children, is that parents need to be more active in schooling. Too many hand their children over in the morning and pick them up in the afternoon (if they can even be bothered to manage that) and think they have provided for the child's education. You will find that no matter the school, if the parents are active in ensuring their child learns to read, write, count and learn, they will go on and do well.

post #113 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by grokit View Post

 


Another example of the massive regional differences and inequities in our public education system.


Correct.

post #114 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by yooss View Post

No question about the math at least. Some American students came to our school(grade 11), and though we were in the same age, what they were learning were years behind what we are learning. SAT math is too easy for me even though my math is considered 'above average' here in Korea(I can get a perfect score if I study for like few weeks, and some actually have) 

 

On the other hand, the passion for parents to make their kids study more is actually becoming a social problem, and much of the household income goes to fund private tutoring(math, english, korean etc). I have never been to a English speaking country, my experience with native English spearkers is extremely limited, but here I am, writing and reading English just like you(actually, my listening and speaking is bad and I agreed to meet with Shigzeo a few weeks later and I'm quite worried). How much private tutoring did this cost? I'd say around $30~40k my parents spent to teach me this much English. (another $30k for math, and another $10k for Korean)

 

Result? 1) I had to stay up until 3 in the morning(and I have to wake up at 6) for English debate preparation--for a week. There are two debates next month. 2) It took me approx 10 months for me to get a HSK 6 since I first learned how to pronounce bo po mo fo, and this costed like $0.5k

 

(don't get me wrong, not every family in Korea is like this, but a lot are--and my school is actually a foreign language high school specializing in teaching languages)

 

Life is different here as a student


I'd say people these days are far to caught up on university as the ONLY way to success, thus failing to realize their true potential and skillsets. I can't stand university (In my final year atm), and strongly believe that professional jobs such as engineering and commerce just can't be taught in what is essentially an educational system leftover from the industrial revolution. Intelligence should not be defined by what someone scores on an exam as people differ far too much in skillsets, and ultimately the world requires a wide variety of people to function correctly. Serious education reform needs to happen before we get stuck into a trap where we're just churning out the same people over and over again. 

 

I didn't really have any tutoring when I did my high school and was always amused at how much money people would spend to tutor their kids. In Hong Kong its reached a point where tuition has become a substitution for high school, and tutors are advertised on buses like celebrities. The only tutoring I had was Chemistry as I struggled with it, but otherwise I did everything on my own and still managed to score well....


Edited by nsx_23 - 10/27/10 at 3:49am
post #115 of 163

I believe that the below speeches of Ken Robinson regarding education are very interesting

 

http://www.ted.com/talks/sir_ken_robinson_bring_on_the_revolution.html

 

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

post #116 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cianyx View Post



I still don't think that an intellectual society would present much of a problem to democracy. It is not often that intellectuals share the same opinion to the extent of dissolving the democratic system. If anything, it adds scrutiny. I'll drop this for now though.



I don't think that was the point he was making.  Obviously if everyone could have the highest level of education , that would be a good thing, for the most part.  He was describing the expanding intellectual gulf which would appear to correlate to ever increasing class discrepancies.  The concern isn't over mass education but education and intellect in the hands of the few 'knowing' what is best for everyone else.

post #117 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

My experience, I have a child at school, so do all of my friends and I have worked with a school planning programmes for disruptive children, is that parents need to be more active in schooling. Too many hand their children over in the morning and pick them up in the afternoon (if they can even be bothered to manage that) and think they have provided for the child's education. You will find that no matter the school, if the parents are active in ensuring their child learns to read, write, count and learn, they will go on and do well.


^ This.  I think the decline in youth education is directly related in the decline of parenting.  There are also social pressures responsible for this but that reinforces the point that most modern families have a different value set than prior generations.

post #118 of 163
Thread Starter 

It's all Dr. Spock's fault, of course. Letting kids "find themselves" is a bunch of rubbish, they need guidance.

post #119 of 163

I really don't see it as anyone's fault. An, no, those graphics usually presented by some organizations are, for the most part useless; more, they are one of the worst culprits - for government statistics are one of the main reasons behind the education nightmare. The decline is general, in all western societies. I find myself traveling around the world (mostly Canada, USA, UK, Scandinavia, Western Russia, Iberian Peninsula), and everywhere is the same horrid seen. The fault lies at Democracies feet. By insisting on universal-mandatory education, the level could only decrease, and it will get worst. Teachers have to lower standards of classes to that of the less capable students, this leads the more capable students to "drop-out", loose interest, ADS...

 

More dramatic is the fact that many governments have, in practice, abolished failure, flunking, and any other hurdles that stand in the way of statistics, every student getting a diploma, electoral propaganda...

This is not just crippling all Public Education institutions, but, more seriously, crippling the students it claims to be giving a "fare-chance". After years of doing nothing, learning nothing, having no obstacles; the students are left with a piece of paper, and the "real-world", which they have not been equipped to deal with (the blind leading the stupid).

 

Solution: It's too late for the Nation-States to turn back the clock, and implement real education. The very parents that see this "rise of the idiots", would be the first to revolt if their kids start getting bad notes, or, god forbid it, start flunking - no elected government will risk alienating so many peop...voters...

 

If you want a good education for your kids, do like me - Great private schools in the UK and Switzerland, or other countries with prestigious private education institutions... (US school system is way too toxic these days - religion, political correctness, Race issues...)

post #120 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post
I don't think that was the point he was making.  Obviously if everyone could have the highest level of education , that would be a good thing, for the most part.  He was describing the expanding intellectual gulf which would appear to correlate to ever increasing class discrepancies.  The concern isn't over mass education but education and intellect in the hands of the few 'knowing' what is best for everyone else.

Class discrepancies has always existed regardless of intellectual levels. Besides that, jobs which involve large scale policies and economics has always been reserved for intellectuals anyway, as opposed to the mom and pop stores. What he describes is a growing push for jobs requiring higher intellectual skill. Sure, the rulers of the nation may be in the hands of a few intellects of power (like it always has been) but this growing push ensures that a larger sample of people can have input into the system. Still not a true democracy, but I still see the decentralisation of power as a significant improvement. 

 

Another thing, I don't really get what you mean by 'education and intellect in the hands of the few''.

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