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Do we hear all alike or different ?

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 

If you are familiar with head-fi, chances are you have already come across those words many time: HRTF (Head Related Transfer Function) or put in a different way, we all have different ears.

 

It seems like an indestructible axiom on those boards, and often used to explain two radically different opinions of the same gear, for example headphones. It is a powerfull tool to remove tensions in heated discussions. But what bothered me with those claims is that I have actually never seen any analysis to back it up, nor quantify its importance. Is HRTF a question of minute differences (less than 1dB) in the way we hear things or rather large and significant differences that could indeed explain why two people can have radically opposed opinions of a single headphone.

 

That is what I have tried to find out.

 

I was very much interested in this aspect of our perception of sounds, as I was wondering if true neutrality could indeed exist in a headphone and be somewhat universal, beeing myself a firm defenser of true neutrality in a playback system.

 

One very interesting and preleminary article can be find here, in the Stereophile magazine, Between The Ears: the art and science of measuring headphones. I learned there that Free Field calibrated headphones and Diffuse Field calibrated headphone would have inherently different frequency response, as well as many other valuable information.

 

But what got my attention was concretely the first footnote of the Stereophile article, as for the first time, I could actually see a reference to a serious analysis and study regarding the HRTF disparities between individuals. It is a paper from the AES, and not free, so I will not divulgate its content here. However, and if allowed, I just would like to show 1 graph extracted from this paper I bought and is treating HRTF disparities...

 

freefield.jpg

 

What is represented is measurments for 40 individual HRTF in Free Field conditions (left side), in a controlled environment (speaker, not headphone, but still valid I believe for our needs). There is also a similar graph for Diffuse Field response, but the conclusions are the same. Pay attention to the half bottom of those graphs, showing HRTF with open ear canal. The dark grey line on the right side is the average for those 40 measurments available, and the light grey area is indicating one standard deviation. You can actually see how perception between individual can vary easily in 10dB (standard deviation at 10khz for example corresponding IIRC to only 65% of the population analyzed, or 27 individual HRTF), and even more for those than are not into this standard deviation (you can actually spot difference of 20dB or more). Impressive stuff really, and an eye opener for me definitely.

 

Additionnally, you can observe that those differences are appearing only in the high frequencies range (above 2khz)... Below 2khz, we all hear "more or less" alike, within a confortable tiny range of 1 or 2 dB. That means that different perception in the bass response of a headphone is more linked to a matter of personal preferences than a real difference in HRTF. Very interesting. In that paper, they explain this because low frequencies are almost not altered by the human anatomy and are able to pass through our body with very little changes. The same is not true for higher frequencies, where our body can indeed play a pass band filter role, and where differences in ears anatomy can be relevant. Makes plenty of sense to me.

 

So, does true neutrality really exist and is it universal ? I believe the answer is yes, but unfortunaltely not for everyone. You can design a headphone to be as neutral as posible (note that the frequency response is far from a flat line), but it will only sound so to people with average HRTF response. For those persons who present significant deviations from the average HRTF, neutrality will be much more difficult to simulate.

 

However, if a significant majority of the community find a headphone neutral, then it should - by definition - be considered as neutral. This does not mean that in some isolated cases, impressions of single individuals would not meet the overall consensus. Indeed, one should try to learn on head-fi if they usually fit with the consensus on a headphone or if they are rather a minority voice, and always keep this factor in mind when reading other people opinions.

 

I hope this reading was constructive and interesting to you. It certainly was to me. Thank you. 


Edited by shamu144 - 10/15/10 at 2:20pm
post #2 of 37

good topic! you may wanna have it moved to the science forum...well, yeah above 1/2kHz the sound will be colored by each person's anatomy.

 

This was discussed in this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial

 

and here as well: http://www.davidgriesinger.com/headphones.htm

 

"the coupling of high frequencies to the eardrum varies greatly among individuals.  It is influenced by the volume of the concha, the diameter and geometry of the ear canal, the eardrum impedance and other factors"

 

You can also see that the Fostex T50RP FR is dead flat up to 1kHz then starts dipping: http://www.geocities.jp/ryumatsuba/t50rp.html

 

But that's only the FR part, then comes the actual HRTF which depends on the size of your skull, whether you're right/left handed, your age, etc etc.

 

I strongly believe that the left and righ handed don't hear the same...the brains are wired differently. The left handed are known to see faster, but the right handed hear faster.

 

I guess the biggest example of HRTF fail is the Ultrasone's, I was impressed by their SLogic+ but the original SLogic didn't do anything to me...Apparently the + version was meant to be more universal.

 

It's like the "Head size/Ear size" buttons in Isone Pro: http://rekkerd.org/img/200908/jeroen_breebaart_isone_pro.jpg


Edited by leeperry - 10/15/10 at 8:41pm
post #3 of 37

What we need are cyborg implants that totally bypass the human ear and plug right into our brains.

 

Great posts guys though! Well written and very informative. I must have read the Stereophile article about 10 times over the past several weeks.

post #4 of 37
Thread Starter 


Agree, but this sentence do not clarify nor quantify those differences between individuals. At least, now this paper from the AES help to put things into perspective.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

 

"the coupling of high frequencies to the eardrum varies greatly among individuals.  It is influenced by the volume of the concha, the diameter and geometry of the ear canal, the eardrum impedance and other factors"

 

 

It also helps to understand why it is so difficult to get a consensus on what could be considered as a true reference for neutrality (now the LCD2 comes to mind)... While that could appear to be true for people with average HRTF, a significant part of the population with a HRTF deviating from that median might (and do) disagree.

post #5 of 37
Very interesting and thoughtful post and discussion!

(I hope you don't mind that I moved this thread to Sound Science - I think it's a better fit there.)
post #6 of 37

 

Originally Posted by shamu144 View Post


Agree, but this sentence do not clarify nor quantify those differences between individuals. At least, now this paper from the AES help to put things into perspective. 


True, but Mr Griesinger's often does lectures at AES conventions, I fully trust his judgment.

 

BTW, that' the LCD-2 FR...dead flat up to 1kHz(just like the T50RP): http://assets.head-fi.org/7/78/7899fcf2_frbherber.jpg

 

Originally Posted by shamu144 View Post

 

It also helps to understand why it is so difficult to get a consensus on what could be considered as a true reference for neutrality (now the LCD2 comes to mind)... While that could appear to be true for people with average HRTF, a significant part of the population with a HRTF deviating from that median might (and do) disagree.

 

Clearly, the headstage will differ for each individual and it isn't possible to have a flat FR in the trebles using headphones w/o EQ...just like Mr Griesinger explained in the aforementioned link.

 

Even my modded T50RP requires some very slight EQ to sound flat to my ears in the trebles. I'm talking about -2dB at 6400/9700Hz instead of -6dB on the cd3k...so it's less resonant, but not "flat". I find it highly sarcastic that some ppl waste so much money upstream when their headphones are resonating like hell...neutral? hardly.


Edited by leeperry - 10/17/10 at 9:15am
post #7 of 37

Thanks Shamu, that post was indeed instructive.  A very important one too.

post #8 of 37

Whoa, does the DT880 look perfect for those graphs or what? It's the perfect inverse!

post #9 of 37

good read. thanks for posting this.

post #10 of 37


really? crap i didn't have slightest idea of thinking like that. i had no idea it also would depend if the person was left-handed or right. i guess i'm the minority cause i'm left-handed. i would assume though lefties would be considered better with identifying sound reproduction  since supposedly left-handers are considered more gifted through studies since right side of the brain is more active and for processing music,art, and visual ideas better. not saying i do by any means. just going by so called tests. i really appreciate your info and op's as well. this is very interesting and changes my whole perspective on human hearing. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

good topic! you may wanna have it moved to the science forum...well, yeah above 1/2kHz the sound will be colored by each person's anatomy.

 

This was discussed in this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial

 

and here as well: http://www.davidgriesinger.com/headphones.htm

 

"the coupling of high frequencies to the eardrum varies greatly among individuals.  It is influenced by the volume of the concha, the diameter and geometry of the ear canal, the eardrum impedance and other factors"

 

You can also see that the Fostex T50RP FR is dead flat up to 1kHz then starts dipping: http://www.geocities.jp/ryumatsuba/t50rp.html

 

But that's only the FR part, then comes the actual HRTF which depends on the size of your skull, whether you're right/left handed, your age, etc etc.

 

I strongly believe that the left and righ handed don't hear the same...the brains are wired differently. The left handed are known to see faster, but the right handed hear faster.

 

I guess the biggest example of HRTF fail is the Ultrasone's, I was impressed by their SLogic+ but the original SLogic didn't do anything to me...Apparently the + version was meant to be more universal.

 

It's like the "Head size/Ear size" buttons in Isone Pro: http://rekkerd.org/img/200908/jeroen_breebaart_isone_pro.jpg

post #11 of 37

Subscribed.

post #12 of 37

Very interesting thread. I've always wondered how different HRTF could be from one person to another. Nice to finally see some datas. Do you know how they did this testing? I assume they used mics in each individuals' ear canals? Rather than do the equal loudness testing which is very subjective (and would explain such variations).

 

Now what bothers me is that these datas still don't say anything about the differences between a free/diffused field (frontal) and a headphone (side) presentation. Is there any similar testing done with headphones? What would the result be, would there be similar variations between individuals? As long as we don't have those datas i think we can hardly conclude anything, can't we?

 

What kind of neutrality are we talking about anyway, compensated for equal loudness or flat ? I'm a bit confused here.

post #13 of 37

It is an excellent post.

 

There is a lot of interest in the mechanism on the human ear, which is understandable as the human ear is like a microphone mechanically, we can relate to that.

 

However the actual perception of sound is hugely variable, so while we could match a headphone's output to an individual's ear, we can't match it to their actual perception of sound.

 

I do think that matching the headphone to the individual's ear would be progress smily_headphones1.gif

 

The true genius of the human ear is, I believe, in its ability to select from sound. This it does continuously without our guidance. The basis for the selection of sound happens for the most part away from our conscious activity.

 

A couple of examples are:

 

  1. If you live beside a railway track, as I have done, then you soon don't hear the trains, even if they are only 20 metres from your house. The sound is absolutely huge but you have become so used to them that you don't notice them.
  2. If you are at a very crowded wine and cheese party and are having a conversation with someone right in front of you, they are very boring (it's not me!) but over their shoulder and a few metres away a group are quietly exchanging gossip about a friend of yours, you will be able to totally ignore the boring person and hone in on the conversation that you are interested in. After a while the boring person asks you to respond to something they said, and you are completely at a loss, because you didn't listen to anything they said.

 

In fact human beings are continuously selecting sound. We actually hone in all the time on sounds that are of interest. You can think of our hearing as being a bit like having a narrow beamed torch in a dark cave.


Edited by p a t r i c k - 10/28/10 at 5:57am
post #14 of 37

The other example is hearing your name called out in a crowded room.

post #15 of 37

As a record producer (of jazz and world music) and a listener who also particularly enjoys classical music I'm very interested in how people hear. These graphs seem to show a +/- 2-3dB standard deviation in perceived loudness in the critical presence range of 2-6K. That would certainly make an obvious difference in how we hear, but I don't think it can account for how we differently judge transducers or other playback equipment in terms of frequency response/tonal balance. Since we're all locked into our own hearing, whatever it is, when we say something sounds bright or dark to us we're comparing it with other situations and experiences - concert hall acoustics, house sound amplification, home playback chains - that we're familiar with. There is no external standard, only differences between different experiences of music. If I hear a certain hp as dark in the 2-6K range it's in relation to other phones, speakers, or live music. Someone else should hear that hp as (relatively) dark too, no matter that one of us may be hearing everything in that range as significantly louder or quieter in relation to mids or lows than the other person.

 

I think disagreements about tonal balance have more to do with the fact that each of us has our own concept of what sounds natural and right in the musics we enjoy. For example when I go to the symphony I like to sit in the first or second row - I love the blast of mostly direct sound and being able to hear a long way into complex music. If I sit in the 6th or 10th row, unamplified music already sounds way too dull and generalized to me. On the other hand when I go to jazz concerts that are amplified I'm very sensitive to over-bright EQ, it ruins the beauty of instruments for me. So there's a range of situations that I enjoy, and outside that range my enjoyment is diminished. Someone else, perhaps because their hearing is more sensitive in the presence range and/or because they like a more blended sound, prefers the dress circle at the symphony; another person who enjoys rock or dance music with pumped-up frequency extremes might like jazz EQd that way too. Whatever, the point is that a hp like the Audeze is going to sound darkish to some people (like me) and not to others because of their listening preferences, which are a matter of taste as much as or more than hearing.

 

Nevertheless, I "know" the Audeze is dark, not because it sounds so to me but because instruments like cymbals in jazz sound quieter to me and my engineer compared to certain other headphones and speakers that are commonly used as monitors in the recording industry and that therefore, hopefully, represent some kind of mean frequency response for the target population. Of course this does not take into account that different popular monitors do have somewhat different tonal balances, that engineers spend a lot of time and effort EQing and tweaking their playback system/room to what sounds good to them and the music they like, and so on. It's all still subjective, but at least it's based (one hopes) on wide experience with different studios, live music, and the opinions of their musician and producer clients and other recording professionals. (On the other hand, if certain records sound too bright it could just be that the mastering engineer has significant age-related hearing losses!)

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