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How do you measure sound stage? - Page 2

post #16 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickronin View Post
different amps produce different soundstages

 

The only way I can see an amp affecting sound stage is if the left and right channels differ in some way. Like one channel has a different frequency response, or much more distortion than the other channel etc.

 

--Ethan

post #17 of 23

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EthanWiner View Post

 

The only way I can see an amp affecting sound stage is if the left and right channels differ in some way. Like one channel has a different frequency response, or much more distortion than the other channel etc.

 

--Ethan



Or both channels can't amplify the signal with low enough noise and proper frequency response to pass on the sonic information that we subsequently process as creating the soundstage...  Another problem can be unwanted crosstalk.

 

Same thing with speakers.  Well, some sort of soundstage is present in the recording.  But if you are going to hear that reproduced, your source, amplifier, and loudspeakers/headphones all need to be sufficiently high quality to reproduce it.

 

The quality of the speakers can and does make a huge difference - try comparing vastly inferior/superior speakers sometime.

 

And then there's room acoustics...  Oh, and signal processing.  Sonic Holography, anyone?


Edited by BlackbeardBen - 10/7/10 at 11:20am
post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by EthanWiner View Post

Sound stage is a function of how left-right channels differences are perceived, so I don't see how it could be measured using the normal metrics of audio fidelity. The cheapest POS speakers in an untreated room could give an amazing sound stage if appropriate source music is played. So I'd say sound stage is mostly about how a recording is mixed, and what reverb and echo effects are used and how they're panned left-right. Yes, some speakers and rooms can reduce the apparent width due to reflections that drown out the more subtle cues in the music. But the sound stage itself is entirely in the source. At least that's my take on it.

 

--Ethan


Ethan, if you are in fact THE Ethan Winer, I am honoured to have you join this discussion. 

 

I have serious respect for you and I look forward to reading anything you have to say on just about anything.  I've been to your website and your articles are very enlightening - I hope your objectivity and sound science can have a positive influence on the audiophoolery that often permeates this forum.

 

post #19 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by EthanWiner View Post

 

The only way I can see an amp affecting sound stage is if the left and right channels differ in some way. Like one channel has a different frequency response, or much more distortion than the other channel etc.

 

--Ethan


I think it would probably be fairer to say that different amps could degrade the inherent soundstage to different degrees by failing to reproduce the very finest details or by having differing distortion in different areas of the spectrum.

 

On the other hand, plenty of people in amp reviews do amp X has a larger soundstage than amp Y and so on.  I haven't had the kind of experience with large numbers of high end amps for my ears to form an opinion though.  ATM I'm inclined to believe that its a combination of physical causes and psychoacoustics, but I wouldn't be shocked to find out its all in peoples heads.

post #20 of 23

This discussion has largely been focused on the electrical / physical aspects of sound, but may I diverge from that route for a moment? 

 

While I largely agree that soundstage is dependent on the recording, when speaking specifically about headphones, it would be hard to imagine that the headphone type and distance and/or angle from the transducer to the ear wouldn't matter. 

 

While I'm sure a number of acoustic variables may need consideration, if we look simply at 3 different headphone types, each with transducers that consistently move further from the ear (and ear drum), the perceived headstage significantly increases. 

 

IEM -> Supra-aural -> Circum-aural. 

 

At its most basic level, as the headphone transducers move further from the ear drum, headstage increases.  Comparing IEMs (which sound like the music is playing in your head with very little L/R distance), to supra-aural (which sound like the music is at least outside your head) is IMO an obvious reflection of soundstage with these 2 headphone types. 

 

Using a circumaural headphone moves the transducers even further from the ear, and also engage the pinna which have actually evolved to locate sound in 3 dimensions which may further create a more elaborate soundstage. 

 

The famous K1000 are essentially speakers attached to the head and due to the great distance from the transducer to the ear, a large 3D soundstage is often reported.  Other headphones like the AD700 have angled drivers set at a great distance from the ear and thus are often described as having a large soundstage.  While it is difficult to determine exactly how far back the drivers are physically within the headphone enclosure, there seems to be a positive correlation between driver distance and the maximum perception of soundstage.  It stands to reason that a hard panned sound would sound even further, if it were emenating from a source (i.e. driver) that was distally situated from the ear. 

 

And lastly, it would seem overtly obvious, that psychacoustics and expectation bias also play a role in the perception of soundstage.  It would seem rational to expect that if the K701 headphone begins to develop a reputation for having a large soundstage, those listening to the K701 will be expecting to hear one, whether real or imagined.  And finally, the observation that pro-cablers have made about the resulting increase in soundstage when using "x" cable is further proof in my book that soundstage can be largely imagined. 

post #21 of 23
Quote:

Originally Posted by maverickronin View Post
I think it would probably be fairer to say that different amps could degrade the inherent soundstage to different degrees by failing to reproduce the very finest details or by having differing distortion in different areas of the spectrum.


How do you define "failing to reproduce the very finest details?" What does that even mean? Again, sound stage is all about differences in the left and right channels. So for electronics to affect sound stage there'd have to be something different, such as frequency response I mentioned. And the difference also has to be large enough to be audible. If one channel has 0.004 percent distortion and the other has 0.007 percent, I'd be very surprised if anyone could notice that because neither amount of distortion is audible. Same for frequency response. If one channel varies by 0.02 dB and the other by 0.04 dB, that's not noticeable either.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by maverickronin View Post
I wouldn't be shocked to find out its all in peoples heads.


Considering the poor (acoustic) quality rooms most people listen in, that's certainly my guess.

 

--Ethan

post #22 of 23
Quote:

Originally Posted by Catharsis View Post

 

While I largely agree that soundstage is dependent on the recording, when speaking specifically about headphones, it would be hard to imagine that the headphone type and distance and/or angle from the transducer to the ear wouldn't matter. 


I don't want to give the impression I ignoring that.  It certainly is very important.  Its just that you have to start with the recording.  You couldn't measure other aspects of the transducers with out a calibrated test signal could you?  For measuring soundstage that test signal is just a lot more complected than pink noise or a sine wave.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EthanWiner View Post


How do you define "failing to reproduce the very finest details?" What does that even mean? Again, sound stage is all about differences in the left and right channels. So for electronics to affect sound stage there'd have to be something different, such as frequency response I mentioned. And the difference also has to be large enough to be audible. If one channel has 0.004 percent distortion and the other has 0.007 percent, I'd be very surprised if anyone could notice that because neither amount of distortion is audible. Same for frequency response. If one channel varies by 0.02 dB and the other by 0.04 dB, that's not noticeable either.

 

I'm having a very hard time articulating this so I'll cede the point to you until I can come up with a more coherent explanation.

post #23 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickronin View Post


I don't want to give the impression I ignoring that.  It certainly is very important.  Its just that you have to start with the recording.  You couldn't measure other aspects of the transducers with out a calibrated test signal could you?  For measuring soundstage that test signal is just a lot more complected than pink noise or a sine wave.
 

 

I'm having a very hard time articulating this so I'll cede the point to you until I can come up with a more coherent explanation.


I agree, I don't think pink noise or a sine wave would do it here.  A recording would have to possess at least hard panned sounds among other things and would need to be standardized in some way for testing to be consistent. 

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