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Testing for SPEED in IEM's - please participate in my test! [speed-metal / visual-kei /... - Page 3

post #31 of 120
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rawrster View Post
... DBA-02 is definitely not the fastest in my collection.
The fastest universal I have would probably be the RE-Zero or the HJE900.


 

so DBA-02 is the superior 'phone overall, but RE-Zero and HJE900 are the fastest, but with completely different sound sig., is that right?  *confused*

post #32 of 120
Thread Starter 

 

Anyway I hope people keep doing the sound test on page 1 and giving their marks =)

 

 

been on head-fi for 11 hours now, time to eat breakfast and go to work!

 

Ciao.

post #33 of 120

You should read it again. I no longer have the DBA-02 so it can't be the fastest earphone in my collection. The fastest non custom earphone is either the RE-Zero or the HJE900 and I haven't had much time to compare the two.

 

The DBA-02 is definitely one of the faster universals out there. That should be simple and easy to understand.

post #34 of 120

Quote

Originally Posted by rawrster View Post

Well HJE900, Eterna, RE-Zero and ViSang R02 are the universals in my possession unless I'm missing something :P I haven't compared the HJE900 to the RE-Zero except for a maybe 10-15 minutes but more on signature. Other than that the RE-Zero hasn't gotten much use in a while.


Heh. You may not want to throw out the R02 before trying it. I think it can hold its own against the RE-ZERO and maybe even the HJE900 in speed 

 

My fastest universal is probably the CK10 or CK90Pro... CK10 has slightly better clarity (than anything else I own...) which skews the results. Not going to rate them on any scale since I'm sure my hearing is different from rawrster's and his is different from everyone else's, etc etc. Most of the leaner-sounding dual-BAs sound very fast - UE700, Westone 2, q-JAYS, and so forth.

post #35 of 120
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rawrster View Post

 

The DBA-02 is definitely one of the faster universals out there. That should be simple and easy to understand.


Yes, that is simple and easy to understand!  When people give an 11/11 and 5/5 grade !! (and there is no objection from others to that grade).

 

 

If the DBA-02 is not the fastest in your collection... because it is not IN your collection, that is crazy hard to understand for me.

 

That is like me saying Horse-02 is not the fastest horse in my stable, because he is eating hay next-door right now. Lol.

 

post #36 of 120

I wonder if square wave response would apply here? How well a 'phone represents a square wave can show it's impulse (transient) response, and how fast the note decays or is sustained.

 

Which looks more square? You can use the FR graph creator at headphone.com's learning center. http://www.headphone.com/learning-center/build-a-graph.php

 

graphCompare.php?graphType=3&graphID[]=1383&graphID[]=1303


Edited by stevenswall - 9/23/10 at 7:55pm
post #37 of 120
Thread Starter 

Thanks for chipping in ljokerl, you make good reviews too, now I have another 'phone to research, the Vsonic R02 huh?

 

CK10 sounds very appealing to me from your review of it, but not what I am after right now (too expensive for me), next expensive earphone on the list for me is just mdr-ex600 I think.

 

a general description and no scale rating is fine, I will compile a grand list from all input received later on.

 

/kiteki

post #38 of 120

what in the world are you guys talking about...  The speed of the content isn't a good measure of "speed".  Fast metal can get chaotic, and that sort of sonic layering can test response time, but that's not necessarily because of the tune's speed..

 

A more accurate check is how responsive the reproduction medium (cans, monitors, iem, etc) is to compression.  For an accurate test, you need very transient material like drums (raw, uncompressed, no dynamics tweaking), with a broad band transient. (a clap is good too)  The speed or the response time of the driver will make a clear difference in the attack of the sound, particularly the brightness of the attack.  This can be very apparent between different speakers, and can help you pick which one you'd use for mixing.  In this case, the speed of the material has little or no impact since you're just listening to response to the comp.

 

The other thing is, I have my doubts about using mastered material as a test since they're limited or comped at the master stage and so when the material gets loud, you get more of the compression effect of the music content blending together (because the peaks are compressed, and harmonics become less pronounced)  If the reproduction medium can't handle it, it could also just mean it doesn't have enough amp.

 

Another compression byproduct is that if notes are played too fast, the successive notes may come while the reduction is on.  Say there's 2 notes in succession.  The first one will trigger the comp, but you'll hear the transient because of the attack setting.  After the attack, the reduction kicks in at the set ratio, and recovers using the release time.  BUT, if the second note comes in before the release time is over, the transient of the second note is reduced also, and so you get a "missed" trigger.  This can happen if the band suddenly plays fast and the comp settings on the particular instrument didn't adjust for the sudden change.  Forcing the comp to the constantly triggered will mean lots of missed transients, and missed transients can ruin instrument separation.  So, it could just be a bad mix and not entirely your headphone's fault.

 

For me, this is just checking on my akg240s but I don't see how the instrument separation can be bad on this..  Even though it's youtube, the mix is fairly clear and shouldn't have any trouble picking out every single note unless the phones are seriously under driven or something.  You also need to take into consideration that if you know the parts, or are musically trained it's not hard to pick out all notes and pick up for almost any material.  Only thing that's a bit masked on this particular file is because of the mp3 conversion, a lot of the dubbed left and right guitar's harmonics are messed up.  It could also be in conjunction with the the left and right guitars not having a very clean distortion so it's masking some of the other parts which may make it hard to get all the parts.

 

Anyway, I think tests are fun to do, and like this one, even pave way to listening to music you (I) usually wouldn't listen to. (tune is great btw)  Just take with a grain of salt, it's just for fun.  A more clinical and objective test can be designed, but it might not be as fun!  

 

-edit-

oh, duh, someone already posted a square wave test..  not fun.. lol

you can also do pulse train tests...  accurate, but not fun..


Edited by kensuguro - 9/23/10 at 8:47pm
post #39 of 120
Thread Starter 

My main headphone (SA5000) is considered by all users to be fast, it was intentionally designed that way, here are the results from the 50Hz square wave test.

This graph could indicate the square wave is not allowed to exist, and the 'phone is chopping it short?  That would make some sense.

However, this graph would then indicate the Yuin G1A and Grado RS 1 are equally as fast, since they have the same wave response, and that is not reported to be the case.

 

 

graphCompare.php?graphType=3&graphID[]=1063&graphID[]=1463&graphID[]=293

 

 

 

Useful link overall though, thanks ;]

post #40 of 120
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kensuguro View Post

 

The other thing is, I have my doubts about using mastered material as a test since they're limited or comped at the master stage and so when the material gets loud, you get more of the compression effect of the music content blending together (because the peaks are compressed, and harmonics become less pronounced)  If the reproduction medium can't handle it, it could also just mean it doesn't have enough amp.

 

For me, this is just checking on my akg240s but I don't see how the instrument separation can be bad on this..  Even though it's youtube, the mix is fairly clear and shouldn't have any trouble picking out every single note unless the phones are seriously under driven or something.  You also need to take into consideration that if you know the parts, or are musically trained it's not hard to pick out all notes and pick up for almost any material.  Only thing that's a bit masked on this particular file is because of the mp3 conversion, a lot of the dubbed left and right guitar's harmonics are messed up.  It could also be in conjunction with the the left and right guitars not having a very clean distortion so it's masking some of the other parts which may make it hard to get all the parts.

 

Anyway, I think tests are fun to do, and like this one, even pave way to listening to music you (I) usually wouldn't listen to. (tune is great btw)  Just take with a grain of salt, it's just for fun.  A more clinical and objective test can be designed, but it might not be as fun!  

 

-edit-

oh, duh, someone already posted a square wave test..  not fun.. lol

you can also do pulse train tests...  accurate, but not fun..

 

which mix are you listening to?  I posted two links, one mastered and one live, for the very reason you are stating above.  As stated, the instrument-seperation is much more present in the live version.

Picking out the notes isn't hard, especially since I know the piece bla bla, but on smooth 'phones it sounds like a smooth flute playing fast, instead of an edgy electric guitar.

 

Feel free to leave your impression or scale ranking of your Akg240's.

post #41 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljokerl View Post

Heh. You may not want to throw out the R02 before trying it. I think it can hold its own against the RE-ZERO and maybe even the HJE900 in speed 

 

My fastest universal is probably the CK10 or CK90Pro... CK10 has slightly better clarity (than anything else I own...) which skews the results. Not going to rate them on any scale since I'm sure my hearing is different from rawrster's and his is different from everyone else's, etc etc. Most of the leaner-sounding dual-BAs sound very fast - UE700, Westone 2, q-JAYS, and so forth.


You may be right there. I did not even consider the R02 consider what I use them for. The R02 is the only thing I have that serves a purpose other than music. I use it for movies and sleeping as well which is what I did with the PL30 that I recently donated.

 

Also considering the driver used in those dual BA earphones it's no surprise they all are fast at least with the CK10, UE700 and q-jays


Edited by rawrster - 9/23/10 at 9:18pm
post #42 of 120

ck10 says hi...

11/11

5/5

 

of course the other pair i own are s4s, which are good in their own right, but sound like quicksand next to the ck10s.  i'm still waiting to see what Audio Technica replaces them with..


Edited by germanturkey - 9/23/10 at 9:34pm
post #43 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki View Post

 

 

which mix are you listening to?  I posted two links, one mastered and one live, for the very reason you are stating above.  As stated, the instrument-seperation is much more present in the live version.

Picking out the notes isn't hard, especially since I know the piece bla bla, but on smooth 'phones it sounds like a smooth flute playing fast, instead of an edgy electric guitar.

 

Feel free to leave your impression or scale ranking of your Akg240's.


I'm listening to the one with just the audio.  Ya, the live video one has better sound, I think the bitrate difference has a lot to do with it. (other than just a better mix for the live ver)  I guess on some phones the stuff could get garbled, dunno..  I tend to avoid them.

 

About the score.. hard to say.  Akg240 sound just fine for all stuff.  I can do first pass mixes and I'd only need to do touch up on dynamics and spatial stuff on my Genelecs (8030A).

For speed, or response, it's not good enough to do dynamics stuff all the way, so I'd give it a 9 out of 11.  But it's a bad idea to do dynamics on cans anyway.

Instrument separation: I'm not sure how to rate this..  AKG240 is fine.  Instruments are separated as can be.  This is a bit hard to say because they're supposed to be separate, and if they're not then either:

1. the reproduction medium is so bad you shouldn't be using it

2. what's driving it doesn't have enough juice

3. the listener has ear damage

4. the listener doesn't have good sound cognition

5. the listener has hearing fatigue

6. the mix is bad

So for me it's more like pass or fail, and akg240 definitely passes.  Genelec 8030A definitely passes (they're speakers).. I mean, any mid tier studio monitor should be a pass.

 

I also use Ety ER-4P, but that I'd only use it for monitoring while tracking or performing because its' got a funky eq curve that accentuates 3-3.5k zone.  Response is like a 4, I wouldn't fiddle with any dynamics on them.  Sound separation is.. well again, a pass, but the funky eq makes it irritating when there's a lot of mid high.  Reverb response is okay if the seal is right.  Just enough for monitoring.

 

Another set of cans I recently started using, originally just to shut out noise, are DirectSound Extreme Isolation EX-29:

http://www.extremeheadphones.com/ex-29.html

They look like hunting headphones, and has a db rating of 29..  which isn't really true because I have db 17 (real shooting earmuffs) ones that cut down more sound, and the ety's at db 30 or something does a way better job.  But anyway, these I can use interchangably with the akg240s, which says a lot because I've been swearing by the akg240s for the past 10 years or so, and haven't budged the entire time.  These I can use for tracking and a bit of mixing, probably do as much dynamics and spatial as the akg240s.  The eq response is quite accurate too.  When I put them on the first time, I didn't really notice any difference from any of the other reference monitors I've used, so it definitely falls within "pass" of eq flatness.  Seems a lot of drummers use the ex-29 for click track.

 

Here's another track for fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anemdasc_EY

A pretty old tune by Raphael Saadiq feat Q Tip "Get Involved"

 

It's a great snappy tune with great harmonic rich transients in a wide range.  The main kicks should have immediate response at around 200-300hz zone.  The kicks are actually very muffled, but still have good transient.. that's good production.  The strings panned way out in the stereo field should have have very strong separation.  You should also be able to pick up the vocal effects, like the default LCR delay.  The lead vocal also switches to a more "raw" effect chain towards the end, with traces of the room ambiance.(2:33 "ohohoh")  The mix inherently has very good instrument separation, but how well they are separated will vary with reproduction medium.


Edited by kensuguro - 9/23/10 at 10:25pm
post #44 of 120
Thread Starter 

 

Well the live version does not have a higher bitrate, and I don't think it's a better "mix", I suspect it's just a direct feed into the microphone from the concert, and that's it.

 

listening with A-Jays Three via my soundcard, I-S is 5 / 5 -- listening via my mp3 player, I-S decreases to 3.5 / 5, narrower and less spatial positioning, can't hear echo on walls etc.

 

incredible speed 11/11 score is not necessarily a good thing, more a matter of user preference, AKG K701's are popular headphones, I am no expert on them, but I think they have terrible speed, 6.5 / 11 tops.  They have pleasant smoothness though, which is a quality in itself.

post #45 of 120
Thread Starter 

for new readers, please look at the test on page 1

 

 

When lots of results have come in, I'm going to compile a grand-ranking list of all the ranked IEM's, if results differ that will be noted.

This means slow and narrow IEM's are welcome for testing too, so I can put them in the list.


Edited by kiteki - 9/23/10 at 11:59pm
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