Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Sound Science › "the vinyl has been replaced by the CD, largely inferior in quality"
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

"the vinyl has been replaced by the CD, largely inferior in quality" - Page 6

post #76 of 437
Thread Starter 

 

Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post

Yeah, technology is brilliant.  Gotta love it!


My point was that the digital technology has superseded and killed all the points of using tapes/movie reels and vinyl. With a lot of efforts, you can remaster ancient stuff to look its best...whatever movies or music. I'm always stunned to enjoy +60yo movies in HD or +60yo music so clear that they could have been recorded last week...now this is beyond words! and vinyl will always have that nasty background noise acting as a veil between you and your music.

 

Hifi is about alleviating the barriers between you and what was originally recorded in the studio, vinyl goes the complete opposite way...coloring the sound to death. Some ppl like it, fine....but it's not "technically superior".


Edited by leeperry - 9/15/10 at 6:31am
post #77 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

 


My point was that the digital technology has superseded and killed all the points of using tapes/movie reels and vinyl. With a lot of efforts, you can remaster ancient stuff to look its best...whatever movies or music. I'm always stunned to enjoy +60yo movies in HD or +60yo music so clear that they could have been recorded last week...now this is beyond words! and vinyl will always have that nasty background noise acting as a veil between you and your music.

 

Hifi is about alleviating the barriers between you and what was originally recorded in the studio, vinyl goes the complete opposite way...coloring the sound to death. Some ppl like it, fine....but it's not "technically superior".


Bang on. Same point with AAC and Vorbis being vastly superior technically over mp3 but gees, I have a hard time convincing some peeps here too about that....

post #78 of 437
Thread Starter 

 

Originally Posted by chinesekiwi View Post


 Same point with AAC and Vorbis being vastly superior technically over mp3

 

Quite honestly, AAC is much superior to MP3 IMO. MP3 always has those mushy trebles and "one note" bass..AAC from a lossless soundtrack sounds amazing in movies, much smaller than AC3/DTS and virtually impossible to DBT from the lossless track. I don't care for lossy music, but getting better audio in movies for a smaller filesize than even AC3 is nothing to sneeze at.


Edited by leeperry - 9/15/10 at 7:16am
post #79 of 437

 

Quote:
Quite honestly, AAC is much superior to MP3 IMO. MP3 always has those mushy trebles and "one note" bass.

 

Really? You sure mate? 99% or people 99% of the time cannot tell the difference between a competently recorded LAME MP3 at 192kps VBR or better?

 

whatever. nvm.

 

I also don't get this either.

 

 

Quote:
vinyl will always have that nasty background noise

 

 

  Mine doesn't. Not if it's been bought new and looked after. 33rpm and 45 rpm 12" 'singles' provide superb quality sound. Most albums are ok. If I get anything that 'hisses' it goes straight back. Period.

 

Second hand vinyl from thrift shops, old and badly treated examples or the occasional dodgy import repress then sure. Altherwise nope. I'm listening on ADAM speakers as well so if there was 'hiss' I would for sure know about it.

 

That said I 100% agree that by any rational analysis digital audio is potentially superior in a technical sense. That does not mean that analogue automatically sound poor though. Just saying.

post #80 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

 


My point was that the digital technology has superseded and killed all the points of using tapes/movie reels and vinyl. With a lot of efforts, you can remaster ancient stuff to look its best...whatever movies or music. I'm always stunned to enjoy +60yo movies in HD or +60yo music so clear that they could have been recorded last week...now this is beyond words! and vinyl will always have that nasty background noise acting as a veil between you and your music.

 

Hifi is about alleviating the barriers between you and what was originally recorded in the studio, vinyl goes the complete opposite way...coloring the sound to death. Some ppl like it, fine....but it's not "technically superior".



I 100% agree with you.    I know all about the warm and analog sound of vinyl,but it still produces background noises that are NOT a part of the recording so it can't be in any way superior than cd's.      same thing with tubes...the produced distortion maybe sounds nice (to some) but it is not superior or as accurate as ss amps using transistors.

post #81 of 437
Thread Starter 

 

Originally Posted by RonaldDumsfeld View Post

 

Really? You sure mate? 99% or people 99% of the time cannot tell the difference between a competently recorded LAME MP3 at 192kps VBR or better?

[..]

Mine doesn't. Not if it's been bought new and looked after. 33rpm and 45 rpm 12" 'singles' provide superb quality sound. Most albums are ok.


192CBR sounds horrid, I agree that 192 Lame VBR is acceptable...but it's still based on the MPEG-1 specs that are prolly +15yo. AAC is constantly being improved just like x264...I'm still very impressed by Nero's AAC in movies, such clarity for such a small filesize.

 

I've got some CD's mastered from vinyl that sound really good, I would guess that they were dumped off some top of the range deck...but still, their format betrays them from time to time, crackles, pops. OK, what's the SNR on vinyl? 55dB? it was discussed on the hydroponic-audio forum: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=35530

 

another link: http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/Vinyls/VinylVsCD.html


Edited by leeperry - 9/15/10 at 8:50am
post #82 of 437

LAME 3.98.4 is the latest version. Released in April this year. It is constantly being updated. If you think you have a sample which allows you to distinguish a high bitrate LAME MP3 from a lossless original then please get in touch with the developers. They will relish hearing from you.

 

 

Quote:
OK, what's the SNR

 

Man I know full wel the technical specs are better. I said that. What I take issue with is the assertion that vinyl is inherently 'hissy'. It isn't. If it is on your system then it's because either the vinyl itself is poor quality or the system is set up incorrectly.

 

I don't mind personally. I made my own mind up by testing and listening. What isn't fair is lazy assumptions casually paraded as fact.

 

It might possibly influence the uninitiated and cause them to miss out on what is still the most exciting and satisfying medium for listening to music. 

post #83 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by plonter View Post
 same thing with tubes...the produced distortion maybe sounds nice (to some) but it is not superior or as accurate as ss amps using transistors.

 

That's not a tube vs. solid state issue. It's an implementation issue. Vacuum tube triodes are in general more linear devices than transistors.

 

se

 

post #84 of 437
Thread Starter 

 

Originally Posted by RonaldDumsfeld View Post

LAME 3.98.4 is the latest version. Released in April this year. It is constantly being updated.

[..]

What I take issue with is the assertion that vinyl is inherently 'hissy'. It isn't.

[..] 

It might possibly influence the uninitiated and cause them to miss out on what is still the most exciting and satisfying medium for listening to music. 


1) it's backward compatible w/ the MPEG1 Layer 3 specs..yes, they've improved the encoding part but it still relies on +15yo specs.

 

2) hiss? the biggest problems w/ vinyl are cracking and sibilance IMHO. When you want to remaster it, first you decrackle then you denoise.

 

3) many ppl feel that compressed lossless audio is "the most exciting and satisfying medium for listening to music"...each to his own [:zoubidawa]


Edited by leeperry - 9/15/10 at 11:37am
post #85 of 437
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

 

2) hiss? the biggest problems w/ vinyl are cracking and sibilance IMHO. When you want to remaster it, first you decrackle then you denoise.

 


Crackling is generally dirt in the groves or scratches. Its not the vinyl's fault that it was mistreated. 

 

Sibilance is caused by several things.* Once you solve the non-vinyl problems they go away. unfortunately it is not as convenient as CD.

 

*common causes & solutions for sibilance on vinyl:

Misaligned cartridge - realign cartridge better.

Mistracking cartridge - increase VTF 5-10%

Worn stylus tip, get a new stylus or cartridge.

Improper electrical loading of cartridge. Because of funky LCR tank circuit resonances 47Kohms is not always right. you can read about it on the hagerman website here: Hagerman web article & applets

 

There is no inherent problem with vinyl that predisposes it to sibilance (not the stylus, phono stage, or the idiot who was running the mixer)

 

yes, there is a bit of work involved in getting a record player to work well. OTOH, how is that different from getting a digital system to work well? The only difference is that the end user generally has no control over the operation of their DAC, and perceive it to be plug and play. If you dont like the filter you buy a new DAC. There is plenty of tweaking and trial and error in building a nice DAC we just trust someone else to do it, and accept as our own task when setting up a TT. If you are not going to exert the effort to set up a vinyl system well dont. OTOH, a weak attempt at setup should not be held as any sort of reference.

 

As an aside:

I have taken to running my analog system through my digital one to use my equalizers. If you are bypassing the EQ technique that we both seem to like you are destroying any chance Vinyl has.


Edited by nikongod - 9/15/10 at 11:57am
post #86 of 437
Thread Starter 

ok, here's a 30" sample of a clean vinyl rip from a commercial CD: http://www.mediafire.com/?4dkri1unp8ldaz2

 

hiss, slight crackles, low frequency rumble, silibance...they're all there :)

 

can vinyl sound as clean as CD/reel to reel? I have my doubts....maybe if you clean an unplayed record w/ this thing(it's the non-ghetto version of the wood glue), have a $10K deck and a great expertise.

post #87 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

 

Vinyl music has a history, a story to tell you...but I'll take a remastered CD from the original mastertapes anyday. 

 

And have to deal with terrible compression, no thanks. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_charles View Post

Digitizing this medium however can be done subjectively transparently with the benefit that you can put the LP away in the cupboard where damage and accident stop being a problem, seems like a deal to me !


Not a deal when the whole purpose of vinyl is analog playback.  Have heard of plenty of vinyl rips I'm not impressed with any of it.  Digitizing vinyl completely change the whole sound structure of it, which is something that I don't like.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikongod View Post


Crackling is generally dirt in the groves or scratches. Its not the vinyl's fault that it was mistreated. 

 

Sibilance is caused by several things.* Once you solve the non-vinyl problems they go away. unfortunately it is not as convenient as CD.

 

*common causes & solutions for sibilance on vinyl:

Misaligned cartridge - realign cartridge better.

Mistracking cartridge - increase VTF 5-10%

Worn stylus tip, get a new stylus or cartridge.

Improper electrical loading of cartridge. Because of funky LCR tank circuit resonances 47Kohms is not always right. you can read about it on the hagerman website here: Hagerman web article & applets

 

There is no inherent problem with vinyl that predisposes it to sibilance (not the stylus, phono stage, or the idiot who was running the mixer)

 

Pretty much what he said.  When I'm buying used vinyl I always get the mint vinyl that I can find.  Except for one vinyl just about all of my vinyl is for the most part noiseless.    
 

post #88 of 437

You dont need a particularly expensive TT to get low rumble. The technics 1200 has borderline immeasurable rumble. 

 

You cant separate a flaw of handling from the medium, can you? Crackles are not there because its vinyl. Crackles are there because the vinyl was not handled carefully.

 

Can you identify where the sibilance was introduced into the chain? no? how do you KNOW that it was in the playback from vinyl then? If so could a differnt system have played it properly (or tweaked...)? 

 

I own records where tape hiss is louder than the silent grove between songs. 

 

You hold tape in very esteem as well. 

Tape flakes, and bleeds. Dont forget flutter. sorry, tape dosnt hold up. 

post #89 of 437
Thread Starter 

Dolby SR on a fast and well adjusted reel to reel deck sounds very clean to my ears..I'm often impressed by professional vinyl rips on remastered CD's, but they're never defects-free.

 

I would guess that the sibilance is indeed introduced by a poorly adjusted/low quality stylus...but the OP was about some genius saying on national TV at 8PM that "the CD is largely inferior to vinyl" as if that were a known verifiable fact. This just isn't true.


Edited by leeperry - 9/15/10 at 12:42pm
post #90 of 437

I don't think anyone knows which will provide better sound quality, vinyl or digital.

 

If you hear, as I have done, an SME 30 turntable playing LPs you will be very impressed.

 

Equally if you hear the very best CD players you will be very impressed.

 

Vinyl surface noise problems decrease with better reproduction equipment. This is not understood by many who reasonably imagine the problems increase.

 

The snap, crackle and pop become more apparent in lower quality reproduction due to smearing. If you think about a defect in a LP groove it in fact only produces one or two full waves but these are of a high amplitude. This extraordinarily short sound with high amplitude gets extended in the playback system. This is why inferior playback systems produce more snap, crackle and pop. In better playback systems the surface noise becomes very unobtrusive indeed, although of course it never goes away.

 

I remember when CDs first arrived and I was skeptical about them because of the digital glare that they had, however this was solved very well in the following years. CDs still aren't perfect and neither is vinyl.

 

Today I use CDs because I think that the initial problems have been resolved and to me they sound very good indeed and most certainly good enough for my purposes.

 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Sound Science
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Sound Science › "the vinyl has been replaced by the CD, largely inferior in quality"