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A new high end player: Colorfly - Page 9

post #121 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post

it is quite clear you are running your mouth off here; I think you will find that your MOBO power supply does indeed have some very large lowZ electrolytic caps, and the arrow too, maybe not in the signal path, which as far as I can tell this doesnt either, but it is a FACT that ceramic caps, polymer caps and film caps either do not come in a large enough capacity, or if they do, the voltage rating is too low to be of any use in an amp, in a digital circuit or localized reservoir maybe, where the power is only 5v max. oscons scome in 20-25v rating when they are only 50-100uf, but once they get large like you need in main PSU reservoir caps, they go down to only 6v or so, 200u maybe 10v, but that is of no real use in a main PSU cap, you need 1000uf at least and in your mobo, more again

 

I build more sophisticated dacs and amps than this at home for my own use and they still use electrolytic caps in the power supply.

 

its quite easy to spend upwards of 50 dollars on a large low Z electro for high powered amps cheap??

 

this is where forums like this become dangerous, people read up on some technical details and all of a sudden they are experts
 

yep as I thought, just looked at your link, its the MOBO, with organic polymer caps, just like this DAP uses in the same positions, they can use these because logic level circuits are low voltage, max 5v and mostly only 1.8 and 3.3v, but the power supply that supplies thejuice for this board you proiudly parade will without a doubt use electrolytic caps


Well I read you as saying w/o them you can't have 'any of the trappings of modern life'.  Perhaps I read you in the wrong context, just read what you said and responded w/ examples to the contrary.  But yes, here is a view of my powersupply showing two larger electrolytics and pretty  much solid caps everywhere else.  Thats a 750w power supply.  How much juice is this Colorfly supposed to output? 

 

seasonicX750_op4.jpgseasonicX750_op3.jpg

post #122 of 356

well what trappings would you have without a PSU to keep them alive?. hard to say what voltage this dap uses, probably 15-18v across the rails at a guess, this will be split into a +/- 8-9vdc bipolar supply, but caps should be able to handle more than the full voltage across the rails, so you would probably want 20-25v minimum on the main power supply, now the main reservoir caps would need to be at least 1000uf (thats pretty sparing, my FiQ is 15000uf so there would have to be a few if they were that size), sanyo oscons (the best known and probably still best organic( solid) polymer cap) have a single cap in the range that is 16v and 1000uf, its too physically large for this dap and all of the other families of sanyo oscon either dont come in a cap that large (topping out around 680-820uf), or if they do, they are only rated for 2.5-6v max. 

 

the colorfly looks like it uses solid polymer caps or NPO ceramics where needed to decouple digital chips and anywhere that low impedance at high frequencies is important, but its exceedingly difficult or probably more like impossible to use them in every position. plus if they did use them in every position and they were all high quality ones, you would be looking at a much higher price tag for the product.

 

below crossed over waaaay into OT, read it if you want

 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

I actually think theres a good chance every cap in the above power supply is an electro, not just the large ones. see if you believed the hype on the mobo page they would have you believe that electros were a thing of the past, convenient marketing. I totally agree and would love it if I never had to see an electro again and go to large lengths to avoid having ANY caps in the signal path of any kind (all my gear is DC coupled), let alone electros, but as a matter of necessity they still have to exist sometimes. I use films, lowZ NPO ceramics or polymer caps wherever I can, but in the power supply reservoir, electros are still king, very large electros like RIFA, that I use in higher powered amps come in over 100000uf and have an outputZ of less than 5mOhms thats about 10x less than the best low impedance oscons.

 

anyway enough cap talk, but just think a bit before slagging off a product like that without actually knowing what you are looking at and try not to believe marketing spiel so wholeheartedly, they will only tell you what they have to.

 

 

anyway enough cap talk, but just think a bit before slagging off a product like that without actually knowing what you are looking at and try not to believe marketing spiel so wholeheartedly, they will only tell you what they have to.

post #123 of 356

Thx for the info and input including the spoiler.  Not sure if you mean the caps in the PS only appear to be solid or if you mean electros are more ideal.  The Seasonic 750 product page specifies them as such.  As someone that has always built their own PCs while watching friends and reports of numerous Dells, HPs, Sonys, etc all go down to bad caps, I'm incredibly wary.  Perhaps I rushed to judgement on the internals but coupled w/ the ridiculous marketing hype and blatant false advertising this company is using I think it's understandable that a bit of an overreaction might take place.   

post #124 of 356

do you mean in your PC PSU? if yes, I mean that the PSU pic you showed appeared to be all electros and unless you use a low voltage PSU, which seems unlikely, it would be difficult for it to be any other way, so while not ideal, the reality of the matter is they are really still the only option when it comes to high capacity and voltages above 20- 25v across the rails. and a large value electro cap like 5000uf+ of high quality will have lower impedance at power supply frequencies of interest than a 200uf polymer cap, much lower

 

 

edit: stupid copy and paste always does this, copies one font and size, but pastes another

 

just checked by zooming in on that PSU pic, only the blue and silver ones are oscons, they are only rated at 16v, al the other caps including some small ones are electros, probably based solely on voltage rating

 

the colorfly unit itself appears to be following pretty decent design standards from what I can see and is built well (looks like oven reflow soldering), I didnt read anything past the brief description on the front page of this thread, so didnt get effected by the hype either negatively or positively; but having built numbers of quality components using these type of parts, I have a pretty good idea of what i'm looking at. oscons sometimes do not have a vent in the top of the metal can, where electros often do (but not always)

 

 

 

I agree the marketing although I didnt even bother to read it, sounds like its a bit over the top and deserving of some skepticism , comparing any dap to a 25k home rig is plain silly and bound to get that sor of reaction but here is where I have to bow out being MOT, so i'll leave it at that.


Edited by qusp - 10/26/10 at 4:21pm
post #125 of 356

combined above

post #126 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post

As someone that has always built their own PCs while watching friends and reports of numerous Dells, HPs, Sonys, etc all go down to bad caps, I'm incredibly wary.  Perhaps I rushed to judgement on the internals but coupled w/ the ridiculous marketing hype and blatant false advertising this company is using I think it's understandable that a bit of an overreaction might take place.   

Some years ago (2005-2006 I think), many motherboard manufacturers had problems because they bought cheap, bad quality electrolytic caps, it's over now. Looks like you think using electrolytic capacitors is wrong. Never heard of Vishay, Nichicon or Panasonic caps in audio devices ?

 

The blue capacitors in your PSU look the same as some Nichicon SMD electrolytic aluminium caps:

158061040.jpg
 

post #127 of 356

yeah that was because somebody stole a recipe for electrolytic caps and they got it wrong. I thought they all looked like electros too, but could only make out the voltage rating at 16v, so given they didnt have a vent I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but you are correct, they look like pretty much every generic electro ive seen

 

anyway, somebody buy one of these so we have some real info to chat about


Edited by qusp - 10/27/10 at 9:46am
post #128 of 356


Not sure why there is so much determination to misrepresent the caps in a power supply.  People just don't care to read or listen adequately it seems.  Enjoy:

 

http://www.seasonicusa.com/X.htm

 

Special Features -

  1. 80PLUS® Gold Certified Super High Efficiency
  2. Patented DC Connector Module with Integrated VRM [Voltage Regulator Module]
  3. DC to DC Converter Design
  4. Patented Hybrid Silent Fan Control
  5. Sanyo Denki San Ace PWM Silent Fan
  6. Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Capacitors

 

"I gave him the benefit of the doubt"  Gee, thanks.  Your approval means everything to me.  Hilarious.  It seems I'm not the only one that can be mistaken w/ what they are looking at if the 'experts' have no idea either.

 

Btw those bursting caps in the Dells, HPs and Apple products were made by Nichicon.  So yes, as I said and I believe qusp agreed, I avoid electrolytic caps whenever possible and will continue to do so.  If that logic escapes some people, oh well.

 

But yes, someone buy one.  Go!


Edited by Anaxilus - 10/27/10 at 3:10pm
post #129 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post


... Thats a 750w power supply.  How much juice is this Colorfly supposed to output? 

 

... a lot obviously, since it can drive 300 Kilo!ohms In-Ears ... smoothly !

 

(... read the "The pocket HIFI' story" ... it's in English ... http://bbs.imp3.net/thread-901318-1-1.html,  the fifth "pergament" has the part with the 300kohm)

 

... sorry, perhaps it sounds glorious, can't say anything about that, just assume, but ... I wouldn't care, that thing looks as if it had been assembled from a lot of spare unrelated parts ... on the ouside as well as on the inside ...

 

... this has to be a joke, a canard ...

post #130 of 356

they've started to sell, anyone else noticed?

post #131 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotubei View Post

they've started to sell, anyone else noticed?



Has anyone started to buy?  Haven't noticed.

post #132 of 356

lol

yes, that's true, no buying spree 

post #133 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotubei View Post

lol

yes, that's true, no buying spree 


Over 500 Euros easy to see why. they must all have been on the "wakey Bakey" when it was priced up.


Edited by anadin - 11/23/10 at 3:54am
post #134 of 356

...and I also believe they are releasing it half-baked. It plays hi-res only from wav (flac plays in 16/44, should be 24/192 after fw upgrade sometime later), plus USB input doesn't work for digital in yet.

post #135 of 356

I think this company should hire a new designer to fix the exterior of this thing before they attempt to sell it.  

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