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The Official Beyerdynamic T1 Impressions and Discussion Thread - Page 629

post #9421 of 9435
Anyone with the T1's have any experience with the Centrance M8? Please share... Thank you!
post #9422 of 9435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooko View Post

OK - I have both the HD600 and T1 with me right now.

Same amp (micro iDSD).

Voltage and current input into both is same.  T1 is quieter (ie - needs more volume).  HD600 is louder.  So is this related to current again?

All this tells me (physical comparison with the same source and volume) is that the HD600 is easier to drive - not harder.

How are you measuring the voltage and current?

(ps. as the impedances differ it is impossible for the voltage and current to be the same in both cases)
post #9423 of 9435
Quote:
Originally Posted by pearljam50000 View Post

Can the O2 drive them OK?

O2 has more than enough. Both battery powered and AC powered. with an ODAC/O2 combo. T1 gets loud enough even at 1x/0dB gain.

post #9424 of 9435
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundlogic View Post

Anyone with the T1's have any experience with the Centrance M8? Please share... Thank you!

 

The M8 can drive T1 to a moderately good level. But when I had it, it was clear to me that the O2 can push more voltage into T1. I sold my M8, it can do a lot of things and lots of fancy features but to me it does not do one thing very well. It can match the O2 at the same volume level but it has not enough juice to power less efficient cans. It all hiss a lot when used with highly sensitive iems. It can sound good alright but to me it's a product that does wants to do a lot of things but not can't be the best of anything.

post #9425 of 9435
Here is why the HD600 gives the impression of being louder:



The HD600 gives greater emphasis to the midrange and lower treble.

The T1 has more bass and high treble which suppresses the midrange and registers less loudly to our ears.

Sennheiser says 1 Volt will get the HD600 to 97 dB at 1 kHz

Beyerdynamic says 1 Volt will get the T1 to 103 dB or so at 500 Hz

The T1 is a tad more efficient at 500 Hz than at 1 kHz so the difference in overall loudness won't be as great as you might first think but is influenced by how prominent the midrange is.

The position of the volume control should be the same in each case as this controls the output voltage.
post #9426 of 9435

I tend to trust my ears rather than graphs and while there are lots of amps available that will drive the T1's "ok".  The thing is absolutely nobody buys the T1's expecting them to sound just "ok" the expectation is a lot higher as it should be after all they are expensive cans and Beyerdynamics flag ship totl offering.

 

Unfortunately it does seems for a few ok is exactly what they get after purchasing the T1 in their set up and its normally due to poor system synergy and overly optimistic assumptions that because their amp can output xyz it should drive the T1 easily.

 

Music is meant to be enjoyable, stir the sole, tug on the heart strings and whisper sweet melodies' right in your ear! The T1's can sound simply epic partnered with well matched gear (not necessarily expensive).  Sadly the inexpensive and well regarded amps like the 02's and budget Schiit amps struggle to bring the T1 to life and ok is just all your going to get.

 

When a poster pops up with comments like sounds shrill, sibilant, anaemic, for the most part many here have a pretty good idea why that is simply because we have been there in the past as well.


Edited by JamieMcC - Today at 11:16 am
post #9427 of 9435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooko View Post
 

The T1 is a different beast altogether. The impedance hump actually reaches a massive 1400 ohms - so if you don't have enough voltage on tap, the first thing you are going to notice is no real body to the bass.  And this gels exactly with what you've described so far - about the T1 being too bright, and not as big a difference with your other cans.  IMO the T1 shines with amps able to output higher voltages, and OTL tube amps particularly.

 

You don't need more voltage in the mid-bass.

Impedance goes up in the mid-bass (1400 ohms), these means the headphone drains less current in the mid-bass -----> easier to drive.

 

Quote: Headphone.com
 

"How we test frequency response: To perform this test we drive the headphones with a series of 200 tones at the same voltage and of ever increasing frequency. We then measure the output at each frequency through the ears of the highly-specialized (and pricey!) Head Acoustics microphone. After that we apply an audio correction curve that removes the head-related transfer function and accurately produces the data for display."

 

The T1 is much more efficient in the mid-bass (ie. it needs less power vs. the rest of the spectrum)

 

 

------------------------------

------------------------------

 

Based on Innerfidelity Measurements, the T1 needs significantly more voltage than HD600 to sound at the same level.

 

HD600 ............................... 0.230 Vrms

T1 ..................................... 0.436 Vrms

 

Some more headphones

 

LCD-3F ............................. 0.127 Vrms

HD800 .............................. 0.242 Vrms

DT880 (250) ....................... 0.299 Vrms

K702 ................................. 0.322 Vrms *

HE-560 ............................. 0.330 Vrms *

DT880 (600) ....................... 0.514 Vrms

HE-4 ................................. 0.647 Vrms *

HE-6 ................................. 1.018 Vrms *

 

* These are low impedance headphones, they drain much more current than high impedance headphones so you need both, high voltage and enough current to drive them properly.


Edited by Me x3 - Today at 1:48 pm
post #9428 of 9435
Well I have learnt something new today - although to be honest I'll still need to study it more to understand it. Thanks gentlemen.
post #9429 of 9435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooko View Post

Well I have learnt something new today - although to be honest I'll still need to study it more to understand it. Thanks gentlemen.

Here, let your brain explode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm%27s_law biggrin.gif

Pretty technical I'm afraid. There are simpler versions around if you're not an engineer.
post #9430 of 9435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me x3 View Post
 

Based on Innerfidelity Measurements, the T1 needs significantly more voltage than HD600 to sound at the same level.

 

Um so more voltage = a more powerful amp to drive?
In my experience & on my setup, the T1 played fine without one an amp, while my former HD600 definitely needed a amp to sound as loud as my T1.

post #9431 of 9435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooko View Post

Well I have learnt something new today - although to be honest I'll still need to study it more to understand it. Thanks gentlemen.

 

You're more than welcome!

I knew 'Live in Paris & Toronto' album thanks to you, great performance.

 

-------

 

It's common knowledge that higher impedance headphones typically need more voltage to sound at a certain level:

 

For 90dB SPL:

Fidelio L2 (19ohm) .................... 0.052 Vrms
DT880 (600ohm) ....................... 0.514 Vrms

 

These lead to the wrong idea that if the impedance of a headphone increases at certain part of the spectrum, then it will need more voltage there to keep the volume on pair with the rest of the spectrum.

 

The 'trick' is that the headphone becomes much more efficient (more dB/mW) where the impedance raises, and these fact becomes clear on frequency response measurements. They feed the headphone with a constant voltage across the whole spectrum (lets say, 0.5 Vrms)

 

It can be seen in FR plots that for the Beyer T1:
0.5 Vrms @ 100Hz sound pretty much as loud as 0.5 Vrms @ 1000Hz (its frequency response is pretty flat)

 

The T1 being more efficient at 100 Hz is pretty much a consequence of Ohm's Law.

V = I x R
P = V x V / R

 

Focusing on the second equation:

0.5 Vrms x 0.5 Vrms / 1400 Ohm = 0.18mW
0.5 Vrms x 0.5 Vrms / 650 Ohm = 0.38mW

 

So, you need 0.18mW to produce a mid-bass tone of (something close to) 90dB and you need 0.38mW to achieve the same task with a 1000Hz tone.

 

---------------

 

The idea that bass is weak (and even distorted) on weak or quite 'cheap' amplifiers might have different origins.

 

- Amplifiers with low output impedance are less bassy than amplifiers with high output impedance.

 

- JDS and Schiit relatively cheap amplifiers O2 and Magni are neutral and even slightly forward in the treble (splashy treble? Call it the way you prefer, both measure flat, but some other amplifiers measure just as flat and are slightly, slightly warmer)

 

- Some expensive powerful amplifiers are not that neutral after all, and someone might consider their sound as a better complement to the slightly bright T1. Nothing wrong about this, but it's not the extra (unused) power producing a different sound.

 

Something I've been thinking about is that most music is typically louder on the bass, and that might explain why most people often find that weak amplifiers ** can't handle the bass.

 

** When I say weak amplifiers I mean weak amplifiers, not talking about Magni or O2, those are pretty powerful.

 

Here's an example: Dante's Prayer from 'Live in Paris and Toronto'

 

We need more voltage swing for the bass, because bass is louder on the recording.

post #9432 of 9435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy007 View Post
 

 

Um so more voltage = a more powerful amp to drive?
In my experience & on my setup, the T1 played fine without one an amp, while my former HD600 definitely needed a amp to sound as loud as my T1.

 

That's rare, but might have to do with the fact that we normally set volume focusing on certain parts of the spectrum.

 

If you normally set the levels focusing on treble, then you'll perceive the HD600 softer, and the T1 louder.

 

It would be interesting if you can set/compare the levels using a 1kHz tone instead of music.

 

The T1 should need more voltage to sound just as loud as the HD600 with a 1kHz tone.

post #9433 of 9435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me x3 View Post

That's rare, but might have to do with the fact that we normally set volume focusing on certain parts of the spectrum.

If you normally set the levels focusing on treble, then you'll perceive the HD600 softer, and the T1 louder.

It would be interesting if you can set/compare the levels using a 1kHz tone instead of music.

The T1 should need more voltage to sound just as loud as the HD600 with a 1kHz tone.

Yep - on my set-up T1 is definitely softer compared to HD600 (same volume setting on the amp)

Btw - thanks for the further explanations. Another question. With all three of the headphones I've mentioned, K701, T1 and HD600 - the first thing I've noticed when they aren't amplified is how thin they sound comparative to hearing them from a decent amp. If the 100hz frequency is actually easier to achieve - then why wouldn't they sound warm and overly thumpy rather than thin and weak (like the bass has gone AWOL)?
post #9434 of 9435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me x3 View Post

 

** When I say weak amplifiers I mean weak amplifiers, not talking about Magni or O2, those are pretty powerful.

 

We need more voltage swing for the bass, because bass is louder on the recording.

 

I've been listening to T1 on Magni 2Ü for a day. I agree that it's pretty powerful enough - on low gain at 12 o'clock I get 70db (measured very scientifically with Android Sound Meter app in the earcup). I don't usually go much higher than that. There's plenty of juice in reserve still, but no question some better over engineered amp would give more... something. Some day.

 

Have no problem with bass, tried with some sub bass rich music like Shpongle, Tabla Beat Science etc. No treble problems for me - my hearing tops at 13KHz.

 

Not ready to write much about the phones yet, but man oh man they have clarity and detail. They are subtle and nuanced. Well done stuff sounds phenomenal from Brad Mehldau to Porcupine Tree. Drunk punks from the 70's sound atrocious, oh well. Early Beatles shows the limits of tech at the time, but somehow 90 years old Louis Armstrong tracks showcase his genius.

 

I'll see how the X2 sounds after this, maybe tomorrow. Interesting that there seems to be several people in this and the X2 thread who are comparing these phones now.

post #9435 of 9435
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieMcC View Post
 

I tend to trust my ears rather than graphs and while there are lots of amps available that will drive the T1's "ok".  The thing is absolutely nobody buys the T1's expecting them to sound just "ok" the expectation is a lot higher as it should be after all they are expensive cans and Beyerdynamics flag ship totl offering.

 

Unfortunately it does seems for a few ok is exactly what they get after purchasing the T1 in their set up and its normally due to poor system synergy and overly optimistic assumptions that because their amp can output xyz it should drive the T1 easily.

 

Music is meant to be enjoyable, stir the sole, tug on the heart strings and whisper sweet melodies' right in your ear! The T1's can sound simply epic partnered with well matched gear (not necessarily expensive).  Sadly the inexpensive and well regarded amps like the 02's and budget Schiit amps struggle to bring the T1 to life and ok is just all your going to get.

 

When a poster pops up with comments like sounds shrill, sibilant, anaemic, for the most part many here have a pretty good idea why that is simply because we have been there in the past as well.

 

While it's better to go with what sounds best to your ears. Reading and understanding the graphs and how it correlates it to how you perceive sound is just as important. This it to avoid unnecessarily shooting in the dark finding the amp which works best for you. Unfortunately, a lot of misconceptions about having excess power changes how a headphone sound. I don't think O2 struggles to drive T1. It just sound different than other amps especially tube amps. But it's not because it lacks power.

 

I always hear people claims T1 needs more power than what O2 or similar amps can provide but fail to give the exact numbers. Comments like shrill, anemic or sibilant doesn't mean a thing as far as power requirement goes. 

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