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The Official Beyerdynamic T1 Impressions and Discussion Thread - Page 514

post #7696 of 10479
Quote:
Originally Posted by billerb1 View Post
 

Never tried it but it's hard to believe a soundcard, no matter how good, could drive T1's to anywhere near their potential.

ZXR has a specific setting for 600ohm headphones and is using TPA6120 amp rated at 80mW into 600 ohms at 0.00014% THD+N (!!!) and 120db S/N:

 

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa6120a2.pdf

 

Also note SMPTE of 0.000095% (!)

 

So i think its more likely the headphones since the technical stats for this amp are sound.

post #7697 of 10479
Sorry they're not to your liking. We obviously all hear different things. My son owns the TH-900's and runs them through a Burson Soloist. I much prefer my WA2/T1 set-up for realistic instrument timbre and a "being there", live presence. I am much more engaged by the overall sound. My son wouldn't agree however lol.
post #7698 of 10479

I have the TH 900, HD 800, HE 6 & T1. The T1 is not inferior to any of them , each have their own unique strength. The TH 900 is the most easiest to drive amongst all TOTL HP's. "Mushy" is not a term I will use to describe the T1's weakness infact I find them quite dynamic (T1 bass has more resolution / better texture than TH900) , with the right amp combination even as dynamic as the TH 900.But then I have never heard them driven by anything else other than a good desktop amp (Darkvoice 336SE, Bottlehead Crack, Meier Classic, A GD Master 9, Woo WA22) , never heard them from a soundcard.

 

So my advice is if you cannot afford a proper amp, sell them, as you will never hear their full potential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavelet View Post
 

ZXR has a specific setting for 600ohm headphones and is using TPA6120 amp rated at 80mW into 600 ohms at 0.00014% THD+N (!!!) and 120db S/N:

 

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa6120a2.pdf

 

Also note SMPTE of 0.000095% (!)

 

So i think its more likely the headphones since the technical stats for this amp are sound.


Edited by punit - 6/20/14 at 3:12pm
post #7699 of 10479
Quote:
Originally Posted by wavelet View Post
 

Just got mine, very disappointed :( As much as i wated to like these (great design, very comfortable), the sound is super mushy and nowhere near as clear as in TH-900 or even AKG 3003i. They do sound better than my HD595 lol Could it have to do with me using SoundBlaster ZXR for amplification? It's supposed to be able to drive 600ohms.

 

I've compared T1s and TH900s many times on various amps and for some reason the TH900 always seems to sound better when driven by a less powerful amp rather than a powerful one. The T1s on the other hand always sound best with a moderately powerful (i.e. >600mW) desktop rig. Perhaps the soundcard doesn't really have the power to bring the T1s to their full potential despite its 600ohm mode.

 

Echoing what Punit said, the T1 should sound dynamic and definitely not mushy. If it sounds loose or mushy that would suggest to me a lack of power from the soundcard to properly control the drivers. No matter how many times I've tried, I always find the T1s to be tighter sounding than the TH900s (due to the slightly boomy bass from the 900s) if both are properly amped. 

post #7700 of 10479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loquah View Post
 

 

I've compared T1s and TH900s many times on various amps and for some reason the TH900 always seems to sound better when driven by a less powerful amp rather than a powerful one. The T1s on the other hand always sound best with a moderately powerful (i.e. >600mW) desktop rig. Perhaps the soundcard doesn't really have the power to bring the T1s to their full potential despite its 600ohm mode.

 

Echoing what Punit said, the T1 should sound dynamic and definitely not mushy. If it sounds loose or mushy that would suggest to me a lack of power from the soundcard to properly control the drivers. No matter how many times I've tried, I always find the T1s to be tighter sounding than the TH900s (due to the slightly boomy bass from the 900s) if both are properly amped. 

 

Hmm, thanks for the reply. Perhaps i should give it a shot with a stronger amp. I don't understand why it should matter at lower volumes though?

post #7701 of 10479

I think you think they're mushy because you're comparing with the th900. You probably got used to those and it did something with your expectations of other headphones. There is nothing wrong with your amp (although I am not surprised that's the first thing head fi wants you to believe ofcourse).

post #7702 of 10479
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunshineReggae View Post
 

I think you think they're mushy because you're comparing with the th900. You probably got used to those and it did something with your expectations of other headphones. There is nothing wrong with your amp (although I am not surprised that's the first thing head fi wants you to believe ofcourse).

 

Do you not think 80mW into 600ohms is a bit under-powered? My amp provides more than five times that on high gain.

post #7703 of 10479
Quote:
Originally Posted by WraithApe View Post
 

 

Do you not think 80mW into 600ohms is a bit under-powered? My amp provides more than five times that on high gain.


Even if it was insufficient, the worst it could do is distort at higher volume levels and/or not have enough volume.

That said, yes it is more than sufficient. You can find reports of people using 600 ohm headphones with amps similiar to this one (fiio e9, essence stx) all over the web.

Also, keep in mind that any power that's not used won't do anything for sound quality. So your amp may be four or ten times as powerful, but all that power is sitting there accomplishing nothing at all.

post #7704 of 10479
Quote:
Originally Posted by punit View Post
 

I have the TH 900, HD 800, HE 6 & T1. The T1 is not inferior to any of them , each have their own unique strength. The TH 900 is the most easiest to drive amongst all TOTL HP's. "Mushy" is not a term I will use to describe the T1's weakness infact I find them quite dynamic (T1 bass has more resolution / better texture than TH900) , with the right amp combination even as dynamic as the TH 900.But then I have never heard them driven by anything else other than a good desktop amp (Darkvoice 336SE, Bottlehead Crack, Meier Classic, A GD Master 9, Woo WA22) , never heard them from a soundcard.

 

So my advice is if you cannot afford a proper amp, sell them, as you will never hear their full potential.

>>if you cannot afford a proper amp

 

So you are saying my amp is not great but if you look at for instance

 

http://www.wooaudio.com/products/wa22.html

 

  • Signal/Noise: 92 dB
  • THD: <= 0.3%

 

While ZXR amp's THD is 2000x lower (!) and S/N is 120db (28db higher which is enormous), so I don't understand why I should pay $2000 for an amp with clearly inferior characteristics? The only upgrade contestant for ZXR would be Benchmark DAC2 I think. If you think about it, it shouldn't be terribly surprising - Creative has been in the business of Audio for decades and they have much higher sales volume than any of the niche producers you mention, so Creative can afford to spend a whole lot more on R&D, knows more about audio as well as have the best talent in the field. Also TI has been in the digital to analog business for decades and surely employ some of the best engineers in the digital to analog field. I realize there can be subjective perception of coloration relative to accurate reproduction but why not just apply a digital pre-filter in software to get the sound you like?

 

Btw these are just questions, i'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't see the rationale. I'd like to see what i'm missing.

 

post #7705 of 10479

I'm not going to disagree with any of above said, but would like to mention a few things to consider:

The output of an opamp chip does not usually equal the output of the headphone amp itself, especially in terms of quality. 

I believe output voltage swing has also a lot to do with how headphone sounds, especially when it's high impedance like T1. 

I also think soundcards' performance depend on the power supply of the computer to some degree. 

 

Finally, my opinion is that maybe wavelet should stick to the TH900s since it seems to have less requirement for amping, and has been enjoyed already, and does not seem to be inferior in general to T1s. That is, unless he is specifically determined to play the T1 game, rather than enjoy music. 

post #7706 of 10479
Quote:
Originally Posted by wavelet View Post
 

>>if you cannot afford a proper amp

 

So you are saying my amp is not great but if you look at for instance

 

http://www.wooaudio.com/products/wa22.html

 

  • Signal/Noise: 92 dB
  • THD: <= 0.3%

 

While ZXR amp's THD is 2000x lower (!) and S/N is 120db (28db higher which is enormous), so I don't understand why I should pay $2000 for an amp with clearly inferior characteristics? The only upgrade contestant for ZXR would be Benchmark DAC2 I think. If you think about it, it shouldn't be terribly surprising - Creative has been in the business of Audio for decades and they have much higher sales volume than any of the niche producers you mention, so Creative can afford to spend a whole lot more on R&D, knows more about audio as well as have the best talent in the field. Also TI has been in the digital to analog business for decades and surely employ some of the best engineers in the digital to analog field. I realize there can be subjective perception of coloration relative to accurate reproduction but why not just apply a digital pre-filter in software to get the sound you like?

 

Btw these are just questions, i'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't see the rationale. I'd like to see what i'm missing.

 

If you would just walk (or drive) your T1's to the nearest high end dealer showroom and request an audition with some well regarded high end equipment (dac,amp) you would find the answer for yourself. Creative sound cards may be great for playing games but they are not competitive with high end dac/amp headphone equipment. You can easily put this to rest by doing the comparison for yourself. Specs are only part of the story. Based on your comments I think you would be amazed at what your T1's are really capable of doing.

post #7707 of 10479
Quote:
Originally Posted by wavelet View Post
 

>>if you cannot afford a proper amp

 

So you are saying my amp is not great but if you look at for instance

 

http://www.wooaudio.com/products/wa22.html

 

  • Signal/Noise: 92 dB
  • THD: <= 0.3%

 

While ZXR amp's THD is 2000x lower (!) and S/N is 120db (28db higher which is enormous), so I don't understand why I should pay $2000 for an amp with clearly inferior characteristics? The only upgrade contestant for ZXR would be Benchmark DAC2 I think. If you think about it, it shouldn't be terribly surprising - Creative has been in the business of Audio for decades and they have much higher sales volume than any of the niche producers you mention, so Creative can afford to spend a whole lot more on R&D, knows more about audio as well as have the best talent in the field. Also TI has been in the digital to analog business for decades and surely employ some of the best engineers in the digital to analog field. I realize there can be subjective perception of coloration relative to accurate reproduction but why not just apply a digital pre-filter in software to get the sound you like?

 

Btw these are just questions, i'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't see the rationale. I'd like to see what i'm missing.

 

People will tell you the THD of tube amps are different from solid state amps. The high THD of tube amps is mainly even-order distortion, which is commonly believed to be not 'bad sounding' to human ears. But that doesn't really make a difference if you want to stick to arguing with numbers. 

post #7708 of 10479
T1 is rather efficient and does not need much power. Given their high impedance, some voltage swing is required. You may want to look at my profile for two inexpensive amps (lp and corda) that I use to drive my T1 on low gain exclusively. They may not be the very best amps, but their specs are not bad either. Just to give you some examples of inexpensive amps that do the job with ease.
post #7709 of 10479
Quote:
Originally Posted by WraithApe View Post
 

 

Do you not think 80mW into 600ohms is a bit under-powered? My amp provides more than five times that on high gain.

 

Technically, 80mW should be sufficient because the T1s should only require 63.1mW to produce 120dB (which is more than enough to cause hearing loss), however my experience with the T1s has been that while they don't need huge amounts of maximum power, they seem to benefit from a reasonable amount of power and this may be to do with the voltage swing and/or available current required as marshallmole said. Power output can be split between different ratios of voltage and current as I understand it so perhaps the soundcard is producing sufficient voltage, but not current or vice versa - this is getting beyond my technical knowledge, but I know what I've heard and the TH-900s seem to thrive on less powerful amps while the T1s need a bit more juice in my experience.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunshineReggae View Post
 

I think you think they're mushy because you're comparing with the th900. You probably got used to those and it did something with your expectations of other headphones. There is nothing wrong with your amp (although I am not surprised that's the first thing head fi wants you to believe ofcourse).

 

I'm definitely not a "buy a bigger, better amp" guy because I'd actually recommend small, modest amplification for the TH-900s (although signal quality is important). I do believe the T1s need a different type of power than what the OP is using though because I know how these 2 headphones sound side-by-side and the OP is definitely not hearing the best of the T1s with the current setup. Although it's always a matter of taste, the majority of people I know prefer the T1s over the TH-900s in terms of overall SQ and versatility. The TH-900s are a great headphone, but a well driven T1 seems to just have an edge when considered across a wide range of tracks and genres.

post #7710 of 10479
Quote:
Originally Posted by marshallmole View Post
 

I'm not going to disagree with any of above said, but would like to mention a few things to consider:

The output of an opamp chip does not usually equal the output of the headphone amp itself, especially in terms of quality. 

I believe output voltage swing has also a lot to do with how headphone sounds, especially when it's high impedance like T1. 

I also think soundcards' performance depend on the power supply of the computer to some degree. 

 

Finally, my opinion is that maybe wavelet should stick to the TH900s since it seems to have less requirement for amping, and has been enjoyed already, and does not seem to be inferior in general to T1s. That is, unless he is specifically determined to play the T1 game, rather than enjoy music. 

>> That is, unless he is specifically determined to play the T1 game, rather than enjoy music. 

 

I want to like the T1, i love the design and how comfortable they are. It's a beautiful piece of audio equipment. So I actually want to make it work and sound better than the TH-900 :) They are also a whole lot cheaper (I paid $500 less for T1 than I did for TH-900).

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