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The Official Beyerdynamic T1 Impressions and Discussion Thread - Page 399

post #5971 of 7966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chodi View Post
 

Refinement of detail, accuracy of tonal quality and more accurate presentation of the soundstage including a more coherent center image are all things you might expect with the WA-2. The percentage of improvement is all relative to the rest of your chain. The WA-2 scales well. The reality is that improvements are not giant leaps at this level.


Thank you for the detailed answer!

 

Well, it sees, that all I can do is to cross my fingers that I'll be able to appreciate the difference enough to not sell it right away.

 

About the leaps of improvement: I was kinda aware of it. I thought that the next amp after the Jade will be my end gear. It's already awesome xp to listen to music now. I just don't think that it worth it for me to spend more and more for a small improvement,  if there will be any.

 

Thx again!

post #5972 of 7966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chodi View Post

Refinement of detail, accuracy of tonal quality and more accurate presentation of the soundstage including a more coherent center image are all things you might expect with the WA-2. The percentage of improvement is all relative to the rest of your chain. The WA-2 scales well. The reality is that improvements are not giant leaps at this level.

Well said.
post #5973 of 7966
Quote:
Originally Posted by earthpeople View Post
 

After waiting allllll day, I finally got my T1s. A quick comparison against my T90s gives me the impression that they are much less tiring to listen to, with a calmer top end. Slightly less bass too, but still plenty when the song calls for it. Physically, they feel heavier, but build quality is a bit better too. Gonna be giving them a good test later on!

 

I'm running them off my HA-160 right now, will be looking into trying an OTL amp with them in the near future as well. Doubtful that I'll be going straight to WA2-level though, haha.

I'd recommend going tubes over the HA-160 as soon as you can. I like (and own) the Burson HA-160--it's great with more mellow-sounding headphones and those that need a lot of power, but IMO it is way too bright a match for the already bright T1's. I liked my T1 a lot more when I got the Woo OTL WA3--great sound and more affordable. But now I'm upgrading to the WA2...

 

I love the T1, but I still need something more forgiving for overly bright/compressed recordings, like the HD650. I only use the T1 for classical/acoustic, and well-recorded rock/pop/folk, etc.

post #5974 of 7966

i've heard that the HA-160 and the T1 is not a very good pairing. 

post #5975 of 7966

Yeah, I've seen a lot about how the HA-160 and T1 are not a great match. 

I actually have been looking into some tube amps, but even using the WA3 price as a baseline, there are so many other amps around that price and so many different opinions about them that I just don't know. DIY isn't out of the question, but there's even less information on those (aside from the Crack, of course). 

 

I'm hoping to make the Seattle meet at the beginning of January, but at the moment it doesn't look like there will be much representation of the amps I've been considering. I might end up just rolling some dice to decide :confused: 

 

 

[let me also mention that I don't find a lot wrong with the Burson, but all the talk about how various tube amps pair better have me curious to them out]


Edited by earthpeople - 11/28/13 at 11:54am
post #5976 of 7966
Quote:
Originally Posted by earthpeople View Post
 

Yeah, I've seen a lot about how the HA-160 and T1 are not a great match. 

I actually have been looking into some tube amps, but even using the WA3 price as a baseline, there are so many other amps around that price and so many different opinions about them that I just don't know. DIY isn't out of the question, but there's even less information on those (aside from the Crack, of course). 

 

I'm hoping to make the Seattle meet at the beginning of January, but at the moment it doesn't look like there will be much representation of the amps I've been considering. I might end up just rolling some dice to decide :confused:

maybe one of the meier amps? they are supposed to be great with T1

post #5977 of 7966

well, from my experience with all my phones, I think if you think one phone is bright and bass light, it just mean you do not like the tuning of the phone itself, not the amp. For me, I want to have a amp that has very linear and flat response across all audible frequencies so it can be paired with any phones (if you rule out the impedance matching problem). I think SS amps all tends to do that, except RS amps that uses op-amps to roll the frequency to give it a more "warm" sounding. 

 

In general, tube amps tends to roll off on both ends which gives a "smoother" sounding signature. Also it tends to have slower decay and response which makes the mid-highs have more "body". 

 

I think there is nothing wrong with either approaches, but IMO pair the T1 to a "smoother", "darker" amp is not a good idea.

 

By making the sound "warmer", you loses mid-range information that the designer of the T1 intend to provide. Just like the HD800, people complain about its brightness, but loved the sound stage and imaging abilities. You can just get one, not both. The higher order harmonics of the sound define the tone and texture of the instrument or voice, and how well your phone can reproduce them defines its quality.

 

I think the problems lies more into the recording side. If you feed properly recorded musics into T1(some SACDs or high res FLACs for classic and jazz), they never sound bright. They have very well balanced tone across all frequency ranges. It is only when you fed the badly recorded materials (pops mostly), the sibilance and other harsh sound will start to tear your ears apart. It is normally due to the fact that normal classic and jazz are live recordings where the sound source are at a natural distance away from you. As for the nature of sound, all the high frequency sounds will have faster drop in energy level compare to lower frequency sound with respect to distance. As a result, you will hear much less mid-highs compare to mids. It is also the same fact, human ear tends to have amplification towards those frequency (human speech will be emphasized compare to environment noise). The "normal" or "nature" sound we hear from our ear has already been adjusted.

 

Image, now if you record the sound in studio with the singer has his/her mouth few centimeters away form the mic, you will have a much higher volume on the highs compare to what we will "normally" hear. If the sound engineer (or the guy that mix the ****) is using what they advertized to use, a BEAT, nothing will be done to the music but just compress them into mp3s. As a result, most of the pop and rock you get from iTunes will give T1 a bright issue. Also you will have tight bass, or lack of sub bass issue due to the same manner.(If you use a phone that tends to be mid recessive and bass heavy, to make it sound nature, you will boost the mids and kill the sub bass~~)

 

In conclusion, using the amp to tune your headphone to give you the right sound is only the secondary solution of the problem. Switching the phone to the right taste, or getting the music form the rights sources makes more sense and it is much cheaper too. Honestly, a good headphone is never measured by the price or its technical specs. It is only measured by your ears. I find my much cheaper Koss ESP950 is doing a much better job on pop and rock musics. So, for these kind of genre, I never uses T1. 


Edited by AlanHell - 11/28/13 at 11:54am
post #5978 of 7966
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHell View Post
 

well, from my experience with all my phones, I think if you think one phone is bright and bass light, it just mean you do not like the tuning of the phone itself, not the amp. For me, I want to have a amp that has very linear and flat response across all audible frequencies so it can be paired with any phones (if you rule out the impedance matching problem). I think SS amps all tends to do that, except RS amps that uses op-amps to roll the frequency to give it a more "warm" sounding.

 

In general, tube amps tends to roll off on both ends which gives a "smoother" sounding signature. Also it tends to have slower decay and response which makes the mid-highs have more "body".

 

I think there is nothing wrong with either approaches, but IMO pair the T1 to a "smoother", "darker" amp is not a good idea.

 

By making the sound "warmer", you loses mid-range information that the designer of the T1 intend to provide. Just like the HD800, people complain about its brightness, but loved the sound stage and imaging abilities. You can just get one, not both. The higher order harmonics of the sound define the tone and texture of the instrument or voice, and how well your phone can reproduce them defines its quality.

 

I think the problems lies more into the recording side. If you feed properly recorded musics into T1(some SACDs or high res FLACs for classic and jazz), they never sound bright. They have very well balanced tone across all frequency ranges. It is only when you fed the badly recorded materials (pops mostly), the sibilance and other harsh sound will start to tear your ears apart. It is normally due to the fact that normal classic and jazz are live recordings where the sound source are at a natural distance away from you. As for the nature of sound, all the high frequency sounds will have faster drop in energy level compare to lower frequency sound with respect to distance. As a result, you will hear much less mid-highs compare to mids. It is also the same fact, human ear tends to have amplification towards those frequency (human speech will be emphasized compare to environment noise). The "normal" or "nature" sound we hear from our ear has already been adjusted.

 

Image, now if you record the sound in studio with the singer has his/her mouth few centimeters away form the mic, you will have a much higher volume on the highs compare to what we will "normally" hear. If the sound engineer (or the guy that mix the ****) is using what they advertized to use, a BEAT, nothing will be done to the music but just compress them into mp3s. As a result, most of the pop and rock you get from iTunes will give T1 a bright issue. Also you will have tight bass, or lack of sub bass issue due to the same manner.(If you use a phone that tends to be mid recessive and bass heavy, to make it sound nature, you will boost the mids and kill the sub bass~~)

 

In conclusion, using the amp to tune your headphone to give you the right sound is only the secondary solution of the problem. Switching the phone to the right taste, or getting the music form the rights sources makes more sense and it is much cheaper too. Honestly, a good headphone is never measured by the price or its technical specs. It is only measured by your ears. I find my much cheaper Koss ESP950 is doing a much better job on pop and rock musics. So, for these kind of genre, I never uses T1.

Solution: use the T1 for well-recorded music; use the LCD-2 or HD650 for badly recorded music.  Problem solved!

post #5979 of 7966
Hi everybody-
I have been circling around the T1s for quite a while now and have now finally found a good "excuse" to start with headphones again. (I had some Denon AH-d5000 a couple of years ago)
I am going to start working at a place a couple of hours away (here in Norway, driving distances are measured in time, not kilometres wink.gif ) where I will have to stay during the week and commute home for the weekends.

So I need music.

It is repeated quite a lot that the T1s are a great match with tubes, but there are a few issues with that: most tubed amps are not that easily transportable because of tubes sticking out. (I will have to pack unpack and transport the gear every week) In addition to that , I hate tube rolling rolleyes.gif After i sold my last tube amp in my main system I have never looked back.

From what I have been reading either one of those amps would be a good match with the T1s:
Violectric V200
Lehmann Black Cube Linear
Burson Soloist
Meier Classic

My source will be a mac playing lossless uncompressed connected to a Metrum Acoustics Hex DAC.

Do you have a recommendation which amp would match best in this setup?

My main setup consists of said Metrum Hex, Karan KA-I 180 integrated amp and Spendor A9 speakers. Which translates to a neutral presentation, slightly laid-back though extremely detailed and a glorious soundstage (Spendor A9) and powerful with just a hint on the darker side of things (Karan amp).
With the Hex you can choose if you want to go the Hi-Fi route and go into the deepest details of the recording or if you want to rock and/or loose yourself completely in the music (it usually starts with the first and ends with the latter biggrin.gif ) It is really a hell of a good DAC!

I don't want to start with music preferences- I'll listen to any genre depending on the mood...

Thanks for your help!

Dave
Edited by michnix - 11/28/13 at 1:06pm
post #5980 of 7966
Quote:
Originally Posted by michnix View Post

Hi everybody-
I have been circling around the T1s for quite a while now and have now finally found a good "excuse" to start with headphones again. (I had some Denon AH-d5000 a couple of years ago)
I am going to start working at a place a couple of hours away (here in Norway, driving distances are measured in time, not kilometres wink.gif ) where I will have to stay during the week and commute home for the weekends.

So I need music.

It is repeated quite a lot that the T1s are a great match with tubes, but there are a few issues with that: most tubed amps are not that easily transportable because of tubes sticking out. (I will have to pack unpack and transport the gear every week) In addition to that , I hate tube rolling rolleyes.gif After i sold my last tube amp in my main system I have never looked back.

From what I have been reading either one of those amps would be a good match with the T1s:
Violectric V200
Lehmann Black Cube Linear
Burson Soloist
Meier Classic

My source will be a mac playing lossless uncompressed connected to a Metrum Acoustics Hex DAC.

Do you have a recommendation which amp would match best in this setup?

My main setup consists of said Metrum Hex, Karan KA-I 180 integrated amp and Spendor A9 speakers. Which translates to a neutral presentation, slightly laid-back though extremely detailed and a glorious soundstage (Spendor A9) and powerful with just a hint on the darker side of things (Karan amp).
With the Hex you can choose if you want to go the Hi-Fi route and go into the deepest details of the recording or if you want to rock and/or loose yourself completely in the music (it usually starts with the first and ends with the latter biggrin.gif ) It is really a hell of a good DAC!

I don't want to start with music preferences- I'll listen to any genre depending on the mood...

Thanks for your help!

Dave

Pretty much everything sounds good out of the burson, but surprisingly, my burson soloist does not have the best synergy in the world with the T1s...it's okay, but nothing to write home about in my opinion.  For some reason the T1s just crave tubes, unfortunately for you.  David Mahler in his Battle of the Flagships thread believes that the SPL Phonitor is a great pairing if you want Solid State.


Edited by figaro69 - 11/28/13 at 2:30pm
post #5981 of 7966
Quote:
Originally Posted by figaro69 View Post
 

Pretty much everything sounds good out of the burson, but surprisingly, my burson soloist does not have the best synergy in the world with the T1s...it's okay, but nothing to write home about in my opinion.  For some reason the T1s just crave tubes, unfortunately for you.  David Mahler in his Battle of the Flagships thread believes that the SPL Phonitor is a great pairing if you want Solid State.

i love the look of the phonitor and have always wanted to try it. I wonder how it compares to the BHA-1 and soloist? 

post #5982 of 7966

I  can vouch for the V200 with the T1.  Sounds absolutely wonderful to me.

post #5983 of 7966

Funny, I actually like Rock, Metal and other aggressive styles with the T1. Yes the treble is quite wild at times, but for me it sounds closer to the live experience I've had with heavier bands. I enjoy that aggressive energy.

post #5984 of 7966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saren View Post
 

Funny, I actually like Rock, Metal and other aggressive styles with the T1. Yes the treble is quite wild at times, but for me it sounds closer to the live experience I've had with heavier bands. I enjoy that aggressive energy.


Well, actually for live rock recordings, I like the T1 too~~~ But in general, I need to protect my hearing a bit~~~

post #5985 of 7966

Howdy all,

 

I've only commented briefly before in this thread and I'm also relatively new to headfi.

I just wanted to mention that I've also experienced issues with my T1 and treble.

So much so that I almost sold them.Granted I don't have a great source setup right now it still concerned me.

 

I agree that tubes are very great with the T1.

I've also found the T1 to be much more agreeable in the treble respect when listening to vinyl.

 

I realize this is currently a luxury many of us can't afford(including me at the moment) but

recently I've had the opportunity to listen the the T1 with lots of records,old and new, on several random systems.

These systems(and records) were greatly diverse in quality but with a turntable on every one and none were tubed.

 

 

Never once in my listenings did I come across the treble issues I have occasionally on the 2 digital systems I have access to.

Even on the cheapest system (an integrated Aiwa from maybe the 1980's, admittedly awful stereo system).

And I know this may sound silly but while listening, I was always struck by a feeling that the T1 was meant for vinyl.

 

Anyway peace all,

My only real point is

T1 plus Vinyl = :bigsmile_face:

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