Head-Fi.org › Forums › Summit-Fi (High-End Audio) › High-end Audio Forum › The Official Beyerdynamic T1 Impressions and Discussion Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Official Beyerdynamic T1 Impressions and Discussion Thread - Page 359

post #5371 of 8380
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmorneau View Post
 

Hi WiseManja,

 

I like to read your explanation, I'm learning a lot, but on the XLR (Balanced part) there is one thing that I don't understand, how there could be an impact even if there is some noise going into the cable since basically the way I understand it, there is 2 opposed polarity, so the transformer at the end and subtract what was added during the transport. Wikipedia explain it better then me:

 

 

My DAC and my amp are connected with 2 x 3 pin XLR cable (one for left and one for right) I'm currently using short 3ft Digiflex professional with neutrik connector.

 

My T1 really sing on my setup, I can't stop listening to music, I have discovered the "lossless" and "HD" track, I enjoy it big time.

 

As for the USB cable, I use a cheap 10ft $3 Startech cable with little to no shielding to connect my DAC and it works well. My usb cable go behind my desk and follow I don't know how many other 120volts wires and I don't hear any noise if a track if perfectly silent even if I set my auditor to the maximum (which would blow my headphone if any sound were played).

Let me see if I understand your question. Are you saying that since a balanced configuration of cables and electronics is designed to cancel out noise so how can some noise still get in?

 

If so, here's an analogy. Basically, the higher the frequency (i.e., the shorter the wavelength), the smaller the holes it'll fit through. Normally the electromagnetic noise found in an audio environment is pretty low frequency. 60Hz hum off of power wiring, ballast noise from florescent lights, etc. Running a microphone across a stage with a 60 foot long cord will typically see a bunch of this stuff. However, digital clocks in computers and DACs can run at much higher frequencies. Higher frequencies can just get into things easier.

 

Regarding you system, it sounds like it's working well for you. I wouldn't worry too much about it if it's giving you a lot of pleasure and you aren't getting any subtle artifacts that might be due to jitter. Some thoughts on your lossless and HDtrack stuff:

 

1) Lossless is a compression method designed so that when decompressed, the original information is all there. However, it adds an addition step in the conversion of the data during playback. If you use uncompressed files (e.g., .wav, .aiff, or FLAC), you remove a level of digital processing. Theoretically, it should make no difference, but I did on some rare occasions hear a difference on a system I was using. I have no idea why it occurred. Perhaps my core audio in my computer always digitally filters (i.e., anti-alias filter) anything that goes through it and I know that that definately has a degrading effect on my system. So try experimenting with some non compressed files. If you don't see any reason toe retain the uncompressed formats just remember that some of the lossless formats are proprietary (such as apple's)

 

2) The HDtrack stuff (i.e., the high resolution files). There is some debate over whether or not high sample rates really buy anything. My jury is still out on that, but I have also heard that some of the hi sample rate tracks were actually mastered at a lower rate and then upsampled to create some of the files that they sell. that buys you nothing but just takes your money and uses up space. Also, If you check out the "Sennheiser HDVD800 Headphone Amplifier" thread and go back several weeks, there is a lot of discussion about ultrasonic noise that has been left in many of their 192kHz sample rate files. This noise is not supposed to be there per standards as it is way up above the Nyquest frequency and when the file is played back the ultrasonic noise creates audible noise that is like a loud hissing during the playback (these are aliasing artifacts) When Sennheiser built their HDVD800's DAC they were choosing to minimize as much processing on the digital data as possible. As a result this ultrasonic noise gets through and makes the recording unlistenable. For me, this currently corresponds to half of my HDtrack items. Most companies have put in anti-aliasing filters in the front end of their DACs to avoid this problem so you won't hear the problem on many DACs, and in fact, Sennheiser is in the process of creating a firmware update to fix this problem on their HDVD800. they want to set it up so that it only runs the filter if there is actually noise in the recording. That way they can still use the minimalist approach for the clean files. The thing that irked me is that HDtracks is selling files that do not meet industry standards. The combination of these issues have led me to decide that if I buy any more hi-rez tracks from them, they will only be 96kHz or lower.

 

3) I have a T1 with a HDVD800 DAC/amp combo who's total value is around $3400. I am using a Monoprice 10ft USB cable that was $1.49 if I remember correctly. I have compared it with a $500 Audioquest Coffee USB cable and can't detect any differences. But my HDVD800 runs USB Asynchronous transfer mode so In  general I don't expect to see any difference.

post #5372 of 8380
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobJS View Post
 

 

Bolded section ..... not really.  These blocks of data are error corrected and buffered and reclocked at the receiving end.  This is why I am skeptical about USB cable claims.  The only possible explanation I could possibly entertain is that a better shielded cable might leak less EFI into the receiving electronics, messing with the output of the DAC.

 

I haven't heard any difference in SQ between the included USB out from my Conductor and the optical cable, which leaves me skeptical.  A lot of folks swear "they have heard the difference", so far be it for me to doubt them... I only ask what is the explanation of the phenomenon?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisemanja View Post
 

Hi there. Thanks for the feedback.

 

Are you familiar with the framing for the synchronous USB protocol at all? I am not and so I can only surmise at the moment what error correction is done. I do know though, for standard S/PDIF transfers, the transmission has to basically be close to the audio sample rate so that it is easy to reconstruct the clock. For bit specific error recovery algorithm, you normally need a whole lot of redundant data, sorta like in the case of Cyclic redundancy checks (CRC) or Bose - Chaudhuri -  ...

......

 

Your final question of "what is the explanation of the phenomenon?" relative to your Conductor and USB cables, I can't answer for asynch transfer because I've never seen it and I'm not sure I believe it. Are you saying that folks claim to have heard differences on the Conductor using different USB cables? That sounds a little odd to me. I wonder if they have their sources configured to use async. If not, that might contribute to an issue. Not sure what to say about that one.

 

 

What you say makes a great deal of sense... It sounds like we're on the same page regarding asynchronous USB transfer.  The "burson-conductor-dac-amp-successor-to-the-ha-160d" thread has been virtually hijacked with folks claiming how much better performance they get inserting the likes of USB/SPDIF converters (such as V-LINK192) between the USB out and DAC/amp USB in.  I would like really like to take this conversation there, but I don't particularly relish being charred to a crisp.  

 

I should man-up and post there... tomorrow.  :cool:

post #5373 of 8380

please remember that a bit stream be it over a usb or spdif or toslink are not bits thrown in the wind, there are standards that define the encoding used, bits are not analog, it's a on/off 1/0 logic interpretation, so it's not like 0V is 0 and 5V is 1, it doesn't work like that

 

jitter is not an audio data stream error problem

 

kinda off topic that was...

 

ah and if anybody was wondering, yes, i sold my T1...


Edited by roskodan - 9/4/13 at 6:45am
post #5374 of 8380
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobJS View Post
 

 

 

 

 

What you say makes a great deal of sense... It sounds like we're on the same page regarding asynchronous USB transfer.  The "burson-conductor-dac-amp-successor-to-the-ha-160d" thread has been virtually hijacked with folks claiming how much better performance they get inserting the likes of USB/SPDIF converters (such as V-LINK192) between the USB out and DAC/amp USB in.  I would like really like to take this conversation there, but I don't particularly relish being charred to a crisp.  

 

I should man-up and post there... tomorrow.  :cool:

Well there's part of the problem, i.e., USB/SPDIF converters. Although I've not looked specifically at it, I'm pretty sure that S/PDIF is a unidirectional protocol. USB async is bidirectional so that the asynch handshaking can be done. A converter is a great way to get the benefit of USB async if your DAC hasn't got it already. The idea is that the buffering and all is done in the converter. However, the link to the DAC in S/PDIF is subject to all synchronous transfer problems so you would think that it should be kept very short (there can be issues with that). The DAC is now still stuck with doing jitter removal on an incoming synchronous link. However, normally people using these converters are doing so either to deal with a DAC that doesn't have a USB interface, or they want the much longer length capability of the S/PDIF interface. In either event, my impression of the Conductor is that it also does very good jitter reduction on S/PDIF interfaces as well.

 

It also seems to be awfully expensive when the Conductor by itself should be adequate... Well, I guess you'd have to be there :smile:

post #5375 of 8380

I'm not quite sure where to put this; but I'm trying out a NAD M51 with my T1 & WA2. It seems to be a very complimentary DAC for the T1s. Treble is very detailed without any harshness. Bass might be slightly emphasized; but no "boominess". It's really a pleasant sounding combination that simply disappears into the music. I'm connected via USB, the drivers (and cheap cable) just work.

post #5376 of 8380
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanT View Post
 

I'm not quite sure where to put this; but I'm trying out a NAD M51 with my T1 & WA2. It seems to be a very complimentary DAC for the T1s. Treble is very detailed without any harshness. Bass might be slightly emphasized; but no "boominess". It's really a pleasant sounding combination that simply disappears into the music. I'm connected via USB, the drivers (and cheap cable) just work.

 

its a lovely looking dac - the nad. Will you buy it?

post #5377 of 8380
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanT View Post

I'm not quite sure where to put this; but I'm trying out a NAD M51 with my T1 & WA2. It seems to be a very complimentary DAC for the T1s. Treble is very detailed without any harshness. Bass might be slightly emphasized; but no "boominess". It's really a pleasant sounding combination that simply disappears into the music. I'm connected via USB, the drivers (and cheap cable) just work.

I'm interested in the M51 as well. Are you comparing it against another DAC?
post #5378 of 8380
Quote:
Originally Posted by roskodan View Post


ah and if anybody was wondering, yes, i sold my T1...


How come? Didn't like it in your setup or...?
post #5379 of 8380
Oh look, its the new T1 version frequency response!

post #5380 of 8380
Quote:
Originally Posted by derbigpr View Post

Oh look, its the new T1 version frequency response!

 

Or just manufacturing variations , not something unusual from beyer :o


Edited by HaVoC-28 - 9/8/13 at 2:25pm
post #5381 of 8380
Quote:
Originally Posted by derbigpr View Post

Oh look, its the new T1 version frequency response!

 

Interesting. What should we make of this?

 

I've been happy with my T1's for years now-- I mostly use them for classical music-- but I'm one of many it seems who has recently had one of the drivers go out. Brought them back to where I bought them-- they need to contact Beyer to get a price for the repair/possible driver replacement--but Beyer has not been responding to this audio store's request. It's been over a month now. Frustrating. Time to take it into my own hands, and consider other options...

 

I love the T1's for orchestral/classical music/well-recorded music (it's paired with my Woo WA3), but I've honestly now been considering jumping ship and going over to Sennheiser. In spite of what they do very well, I've never been a big fan of Sennheiser--(HD800, etc.), they've always left me a little cold--but at this point, hmm...(I guess I'm hoping you all can talk me out of the switch, lol).

 

And now I see the graph above, and am thinking about just getting another, 2013 pair (with warranty). Decisions....

post #5382 of 8380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcamera View Post
 

 

Interesting. What should we make of this?

 

I've been happy with my T1's for years now-- I mostly use them for classical music-- but I'm one of many it seems who has recently had one of the drivers go out. Brought them back to where I bought them-- they need to contact Beyer to get a price for the repair/possible driver replacement--but Beyer has not been responding to this audio store's request. It's been over a month now. Frustrating. Time to take it into my own hands, and consider other options...

 

I love the T1's for orchestral/classical music/well-recorded music (it's paired with my Woo WA3), but I've honestly now been considering jumping ship and going over to Sennheiser. In spite of what they do very well, I've never been a big fan of Sennheiser--(HD800, etc.), they've always left me a little cold--but at this point, hmm...(I guess I'm hoping you all can talk me out of the switch, lol).

 

And now I see the graph above, and am thinking about just getting another, 2013 pair (with warranty). Decisions....

 

I am not aware that Beyer has ever confirmed any change to the T1 since the headband change long ago? I have read many comments from user (like myself) but never any conformation of any change in the sound. I've tried the HD800's at home several times and I am still sticking with the T1's for classical music. 

post #5383 of 8380

Thanks for your comments Chodi. Earlier in this thread I thought you described the differences between the T1 and HD800 perfectly.

 

Theoretically, I feel that I should like the HD800 more than I do: I listen to mostly classical music now, and I savour transparency, detail, dynamics, soundstaging, and comfort (and cannot afford to go into Stax land). Yet there is something a little too thin and clinical about the HD800 for me. Maybe if I gave them more time/had a better system match for them, their compelling virtues would win me over. In the meantime though, I just want some working T1's again...

 

Anyone know if either Beyerdynamic or Sennheiser is working on a new flagship at the moment? It will be interesting to see where they both go from here.

post #5384 of 8380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcamera View Post
 

Thanks for your comments Chodi. Earlier in this thread I thought you described the differences between the T1 and HD800 perfectly.

 

Theoretically, I feel that I should like the HD800 more than I do: I listen to mostly classical music now, and I savour transparency, detail, dynamics, soundstaging, and comfort (and cannot afford to go into Stax land). Yet there is something a little too thin and clinical about the HD800 for me. Maybe if I gave them more time/had a better system match for them, their compelling virtues would win me over. In the meantime though, I just want some working T1's again...

 

Anyone know if either Beyerdynamic or Sennheiser is working on a new flagship at the moment? It will be interesting to see where they both go from here.

 

Beyer has released a new closed can, can't remember the model name lol. I believe Sennheiser is working on a new electrostat 

:basshead:

post #5385 of 8380
Quote:
Originally Posted by derbigpr View Post

Oh look, its the new T1 version frequency response!

 

wow, i would so re-buy it if its confirmed change.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: High-end Audio Forum
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Summit-Fi (High-End Audio) › High-end Audio Forum › The Official Beyerdynamic T1 Impressions and Discussion Thread