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The Official Beyerdynamic T1 Impressions and Discussion Thread - Page 356

post #5326 of 10477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leliana View Post

Same here, I purchased a Ref 5, after much consideration never heard any major difference compared to the intergrated NFB 5.32 dac, so I sold it off.

 

 

 

I was offered a higher end USB cable when I got my NFB 5.32 way back at addicted to audio, and after a listen between the Generic and it, I couldn't hear anything personally. I have the T1's and even thought that the T1 was pretty impressively detailed on it and the treble was definitely brighter with that spike but never all that bad. Only prefer the Soloist all round for all my phones, T1 a little less bright to my ears (might be expectation bias). WA7 very nice due to tube's inherent distortion, even if not as clear as SS.

 

Maybe the old USB cable you have was a dud? Is that even possible?

 

Not a dud - I've tried with different generics too. Chord cable is consistently better.

 

According to a write-up in Hi-Fi News UK, there are many USB cables that don't necessarily perform significantly better than the generics or that alter the sound too obviously and cause imbalances such as too much bass, too much treble, etc. I found the Chord to be really good.

post #5327 of 10477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loquah View Post

 

Which DAC and amp?

Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 and SPL auditor

post #5328 of 10477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leliana View Post

 

Maybe the old USB cable you have was a dud? Is that even possible?

 

I think it's possible. I remember a usb cable that was working with printers and other but it was not working with my scanner. (I had hard time figuring out what was not working) and after swapping the usb cable it was working again.

 

With an asynchronous, I guess as long as your cable allow enough bandwidth, it should be the same. Now I have read a review on the W4S DAC-2 and the guys was saying the different usb cable were sounding differently depending on the coating on the usb connector... Ho well, I guess it's why the pharmaceutical industry still use placebo in their study.

post #5329 of 10477

I have been sitting here reading this stuff about usb cables and thinking how this could possibly make any difference. The only thing I can think is that cable construction can effect RF rejection in any cable. This might not even be an issue at all for someone that is not in an area subject to a lot of RF. Lots of equipment can generate RF. How that would effect a digital signal is something I never even considered. Scary thought that there might be something to this. I guess it's a subject for the sound science forum.

post #5330 of 10477

where i work at, they generate alot of RF (like megawatts of high powered RF, i guess most of it is shielded or inside waveguide though) , i've never seen it affect anything digital or any equipment really.


Edited by Dubstep Girl - 9/1/13 at 11:00am
post #5331 of 10477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubstep Girl View Post

where i work at, they generate alot of RF, i've never seen it affect anything digital or any equipment really.

They are even talking to allow cellphone to be on while an airplane take off... Ok, a bit off topic. 

post #5332 of 10477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Focker View Post

 

I can't really understand how a different usb cable would make a difference, but then again I didn't believe DACs made any difference until recently...so who knows. 

 

Believe it! A quality digital cable can reduce jitter that is caused by a number of different things. And audible artifacts created from jitter in a decent highly resolving audio system CAN be heard.

 

Note that the OP didn't hear any tonality type changes (i.e., reduction of bass or changes in presence signatures). Jitter artifacts tend to be just as was described--losses in the openness of the soundstage, loss of micro details, and some smearing of low level and ambience related artifacts.

 

To Loquah:

 

I am not familiar with the DAC and sources that you are using, but if you can hear differences in USB cable quality you are likely hearing jitter artifacts. If so, I'll bet that the USB audio transfer mode that you are using is one of the synchronous (a.k.a. "adaptive") modes designed for USB audio support. The asynchronous USB mode defined in the current USB Audio Class 2.0 standard tends to eliminate most cable and source related jitter mainly because it doesn't have to recover its clock from the source (which of course has to pass over the cable). If your DAC supports asynchronous USB audio transfer and your source is set up to use it, you can replace a $500 USB cable with a $0.97 one from Monoprice and you will likely not hear a difference (when running at normal sample rates). If your DAC or source does not support the new asynchronous USB transfer mode, then everything is dependent on how well your DAC rejects jitter, how much jitter is introduced at your source, and how much jitter occurs on the cable. If the jitter is occurring on the cable, upgrading the cable can help. upgrading to a better DAC that has better clock recovery could help too. But going to an Asynchronous USB interface might be the best.

 

In the event that my supposition above is incorrect, one of the things that can cause jitter getting into the DAC are groundloops, especially if you have noise getting out of a power supply somewhere along the loop. A quick way to test for this would be to use a TOSlink instead of the USB to isolate the grounds of the DAC and source components. Some higher grade digital cables have special shield topographies that can increase the resistance to ground loop currents at high frequencies that can get into the DAC but good ol' fiber can keep them isolated as well and is always a good test.

 

I've seen where high grade digital cables can help and others where the cheapest cable works just fine. But it all depends on the rest of the system components being used and the environment the equipment is in and what sample rates are being used.

 

- Jeff


Edited by wisemanja - 9/1/13 at 1:31pm
post #5333 of 10477
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisemanja View Post

 

Believe it! A quality digital cable can reduce jitter that is caused by a number of different things. And audible artifacts created from jitter in a decent highly resolving audio system CAN be heard.

 

Note that the OP didn't hear any tonality type changes (i.e., reduction of bass or changes in presence signatures). Jitter artifacts tend to be just as was described--losses in the openness of the soundstage, loss of micro details, and some smearing of low level and ambience related artifacts.

 


- Jeff

 

I won't believe in this kind of things , furthemore my brain is jitter immune tongue.gif

 

Not everyone will hear differences in USB câbles (if they exist) , even with super high end stuff redface.gif


Edited by HaVoC-28 - 9/1/13 at 1:41pm
post #5334 of 10477

I miss my T1's sound signature, had to sell it. I was wondering if the DT880 premium 250 ohm sounds close to it. The quality I know will take a hit, 900 dollar headphone vs 200 dollar headphone, but the sound signature alone gave me goosebumps even on very lossy tracks (Like the soundtrack of croc 2 for the playstation 1).

post #5335 of 10477
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaximumSandvich View Post

I miss my T1's sound signature, had to sell it. I was wondering if the DT880 premium 250 ohm sounds close to it. The quality I know will take a hit, 900 dollar headphone vs 200 dollar headphone, but the sound signature alone gave me goosebumps even on very lossy tracks (Like the soundtrack of croc 2 for the playstation 1).

 

Well if you allready sold your T1 , going back to DT-880 will be easier than if you had done a direct comparison , and even with direct comparison some prefer the DT-880 , so it should not be so hard .

 

In past i allready downgraded from T1 to K702 etc , and it was not so bad .

post #5336 of 10477

i could never live with K702/701 or 880/990 now that i've had T1 for a while now, but its not too bad, they're pretty good headphones as it is.

post #5337 of 10477
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaVoC-28 View Post

 

I won't believe in this kind of things , furthemore my brain is jitter immune tongue.gif

 

Heh, you must listen to a lot of head-banger music right? That'll make you pretty immune to jitter!tongue_smile.gif

 

Not everyone will hear differences in USB câbles (if they exist) , even with super high end stuff redface.gif

 

Especially if they have already previously decided that there are no differences, Right?basshead.gif

 

Actually, under certain conditions with specific components and cables, I've heard differences that are obvious enough that most listeners would be able to hear them, and in double blind tests, I could always pick out the inferior cable. But even then, most folks (including myself) couldn't justify the cost to get there (or wouldn't even care). Also, if you then take those same two cables and put them into a mid-fi type system, all of a sudden there may be no real detectable differences. Obviously, the costly cable isn't worth it in the latter situation but that doesn't mean it has no value in the former situation where improvements are plainly obvious.

 

Many people have to really hear those differences for themselves to see that they really exist. It's always been fun for me to be around when people have some of those eye-opening experiences. Sort of like the OP's experience. Unfortunately there are many who will blow it off saying that the person was just imagining things, where if they had been present and were willing to take the time to listen, they likely would have had a similar experience.

 

And then there are those who don't really hear details as well, or aren't as concerned about the differences as much. I wish I could do that because then I could enjoy my music just as much but would not have to spend as much biggrin.gif

post #5338 of 10477
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisemanja View Post

 

Actually, under certain conditions with specific components and cables, I've heard differences that are obvious enough that most listeners would be able to hear them, and in double blind tests, I could always pick out the inferior cable. But even then, most folks (including myself) couldn't justify the cost to get there (or wouldn't even care). Also, if you then take those same two cables and put them into a mid-fi type system, all of a sudden there may be no real detectable differences. Obviously, the costly cable isn't worth it in the latter situation but that doesn't mean it has no value in the former situation where improvements are plainly obvious.

 

Many people have to really hear those differences for themselves to see that they really exist. It's always been fun for me to be around when people have some of those eye-opening experiences. Sort of like the OP's experience. Unfortunately there are many who will blow it off saying that the person was just imagining things, where if they had been present and were willing to take the time to listen, they likely would have had a similar experience.

 

And then there are those who don't really hear details as well, or aren't as concerned about the differences as much. I wish I could do that because then I could enjoy my music just as much but would not have to spend as much biggrin.gif

 

Well at start i thought that some DACs , USB/SPDIF etc made a real difference , as when i compared some of my previous DACs they sounded different indeed .

 

But when i bought a decibel-meter and started to volume match my sources ...  Hum all my dacs sounded exactly the same ( A-GD NFB-2/NFB-17.2 , Sptifire HD , ODAC , DVD Player (PCM1754+ OPA4580) , furthemore , USB/SPDIF also sounded exactly the same (before i had the impression that coaxial was better with my older sptifire MK²) (Not exactly true , the line out from my computer is clearly not as good as the others ) .

 

Not a bad thing for me => if correctly build DAC do sound the same , no more mater with this , didn't tested more high end dac , but if i can't distinguish difference beetween the 150$ ODAC and a 500 $ DAC from A-GD hum i am done with the DAC thing ^^

 

Amps ,hum ,  M-stage , C2.1 , Luxman LV-91 headphone output , all different , SPL Auditor and O² were similar in the other hand .

 

And for headphone well this is so obvious that it's there were i prefer spend my money ^^ .

 

At least i tried some material , and peraphs my hearing is limited but what matter is that i enjoy my headphones tongue.gif , for the others , good luck in finding your grail smile.gif

post #5339 of 10477
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaVoC-28 View Post

Well at start i thought that some DACs , USB/SPDIF etc made a real difference , as when i compared some of my previous DACs they sounded different indeed .

 

But when i bought a decibel-meter and started to volume match my sources ...  Hum all my dacs sounded exactly the same ( A-GD NFB-2/NFB-17.2 , Sptifire HD , ODAC , DVD Player (PCM1754+ OPA4580) , furthemore , USB/SPDIF also sounded exactly the same (before i had the impression that coaxial was better with my older sptifire MK²) (Not exactly true , the line out from my computer is clearly not as good as the others ) .

 

Yep. This is the bain of our hobby confused.gif The trick is to upgrade the weakest link in the chain first, but finding it is the problem. What if when you were checking out all of these DACs you didn't know that the amp you were using was actually masking the differences between all of your DACs even at the same volume?

 

Not a bad thing for me => if correctly build DAC do sound the same , no more mater with this , didn't tested more high end dac , but if i can't distinguish difference beetween the 150$ ODAC and a 500 $ DAC from A-GD hum i am done with the DAC thing ^^

 

Or what if you need a $1000 amp to hear the difference between a $200 and $500 DAC? Well, if you are not going to spend $1000 on an amp, then it makes perfect sense to spend $200 on the DAC. My point is, that just because a system that you are currently using doesn't seem to reveal some capabilities of more expensive or better built components doesn't mean that they don't actually have those capabilities, they just can't deliver them from your current system

 

At least i tried some material , and peraphs my hearing is limited but what matter is that i enjoy my headphones tongue.gif , for the others , good luck in finding your grail smile.gif

 

Yep! Exactly. We all really need a "reference system" that we own and are familiar with in order to use for comparisons. Then a lot of this other stuff can become pertinent.

 

One last item: interpretation is everything! There was a guy on this forum a couple of months ago that had tried upgrading to a much more expensive DAC. He tried using it and switching with his earlier less expensive one, but every time he was getting grain and sibilance with the much more expensive DAC. His earlier one seemed to have a much smoother sound that he liked. He eventually returned the expensive DAC not understanding why so many other folks on the forums liked it.

 

The problem was that he had bad source equipment and recordings. His old DAC was smearing the treble details during playback of his source equipment and giving the illusion of "smoothness" where the newer more expensive DAC was accurately passing all of the micro details from the bad source through. Because the DAC now gave him more details (including sibilance from his source equipment) the SYSTEM sounded trashy and he blamed the DAC. So he went back to a system with no details but smooth sound.

 

The synergy in audio systems frequently precludes "1 piece upgrades" where each upgrade makes things a bit better. In many cases, adding a single higher grade component can make the system sound worst by destroying synergy that was in the original system.

post #5340 of 10477
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisemanja View Post

 

One last item: interpretation is everything! There was a guy on this forum a couple of months ago that had tried upgrading to a much more expensive DAC. He tried using it and switching with his earlier less expensive one, but every time he was getting grain and sibilance with the much more expensive DAC. His earlier one seemed to have a much smoother sound that he liked. He eventually returned the expensive DAC not understanding why so many other folks on the forums liked it.

 

The problem was that he had bad source equipment and recordings. His old DAC was smearing the treble details during playback of his source equipment and giving the illusion of "smoothness" where the newer more expensive DAC was accurately passing all of the micro details from the bad source through. Because the DAC now gave him more details (including sibilance from his source equipment) the SYSTEM sounded trashy and he blamed the DAC. So he went back to a system with no details but smooth sound.

 

The synergy in audio systems frequently precludes "1 piece upgrades" where each upgrade makes things a bit better. In many cases, adding a single higher grade component can make the system sound worst by destroying synergy that was in the original system.

 

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