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Taking the plunge, Woo 5LE or RSA B52 ?

post #1 of 34
8/22/10 at 12:18pm
Thread Starter 


Hi,

I am after some advice and opinions - after careful consideration and some research on these boards about top end Valve headamps Ive shortlisted these two amps to replace my ageing yet musical Mapletree HD150SE tube amp.

The mapletree has served me well at $750 new, however Ive since upgraded my Analgoue and Digital sources so I think my headamp could do with a similar refresh!

I own and dig the HD800's and PS1000's - the later are cabled with Black Dragon SE, the former, stock.

My analgoue section is a Michelle Orbe & Technoarm with a AN IQ3 MM cart feeding an unbalanced MAD 4SE pre, my DAC,  Empirical Audio Overdrive with balanced and unbalanced outputs.

Has anyone listened to these 2 amps back to back? What does the 300b sound like? is it a love/hate thing? Coming from Mapletree I like a warm tube sound.

My must haves are

1) Tube sound with a deep and wide soundstage
2) Tight tuneful toe tapping bass
3) Emotional involvement
4) Sound that make the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end!!
5) $5K Budget

I listen to pop, some classical and electronica.

Thanks for your help
 

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post #2 of 34
8/22/10 at 7:27pm

I have been to Ray's house (RSA) and auditioned his personal B52, using his HD-800's balanced and his CD player.

 

I now have a WA5-LE max with a Alps RK50 pot, 2 NOS WE300B(52/26 date codes), 2 Nos TS 6SN7GT RP (August 1942) and a pair of EML 5U4G mesh plates. I use the HD-800's SE of course (cardas cable)

 

imo if you are going with a B-52 you should go 100% balanced, the B-52 is a balanced Amp but also has a SE 1/4" jack.

 

I wanted what you want out of a Amp and that is why I went with the WA5-LE and have never looked back.

 

Keep in mine that the WA5-LE is very big about 75lbs (PSU 40lbs and the Amp 35lbs) combined shipping weight is 100lbs in two large wood crates.

The B-52 is about the size and weight of a good BD player.

 

ss

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post #3 of 34
8/23/10 at 2:04pm

I havent heard either one of those amps, but with that budget you may want to consider the eddie currant BA.

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post #4 of 34
8/23/10 at 2:20pm

Another member (vinyllp33) described the PS1000 + WA5 as "quite divine."

 

I know little of the RSA amp, but I'm positive you will be pleased with the WA5LE.

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post #5 of 34
8/26/10 at 5:48am
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the replies guys,

 

I have added the BA to my shortlist after reading through the information in the EC BA thread, it looks like an excellent Headamp, I like the look of the PX-4 option and that the new production tubes are one of the top picks for this amp - a definate plus!

 

Im reading elsewhere about the B52 synergy with the HD800, however the PS1000's do seem to love the Woo's. Though Im sure that none of these amps will sound sub-parwith either of these cans

 

Pros of the EC BA look to be, Connectivity, Valve availability, tricks, and designed by the man who put together the legendary Moth. Cons are its a low production amp and thus has a long lead time. I wasnt 100% sold on the point to point layout in some photos in the thread.

 

Pros of the Woo are - Looks, tricks, packaging, build time, availability of 300B, Synergy with PS1000 and K1000 if I can source a pair that is! Internal build is impeccable. Cons - I havnt found any yet!

 

B52 - Still need to do some more reading, but the HD800 synergy looks and connectivity all big plus points.

 

Still so much to consider, I have PM'ed some folks on the board who own 2 of these 3 amps for some more comparisons.

 

Greets

 

San

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post #6 of 34
8/26/10 at 7:01am

WA5le

 

Alternate option:

BA-2a3

 

OTL amps suck for low impedance headphones (grados, orthos, ATH, etc). SRPP amps suck for everything.


Edited by nikongod - 8/26/10 at 7:04am
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post #7 of 34
8/26/10 at 7:46am

what is srpp nikongod ?

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post #8 of 34
8/26/10 at 8:27am

SRPP is a specific style of output stage that is used in some OTL amps. It is also used in some transformer coupled amps, to greater success.

 

The problem with SRPP comes from the fact that it is highly load dependent - it only works well 1 way. Other OTL output stages such as white cathode followers or simple cathode followers have fewer issues with loads that vary - they work well with any load higher (more resistance) than a certain minimum, and will put up a good fight with lower.

 

The load dependence means that the SRPP stage must be designed to work best with a specific load impedance (Think of impedance as headphone resistance even though thats not technically correct). This translates to SRPP amps only working well with headphones that are the impedance that they are designed for but performance drops faster than other OTL topologies when using lower impedances than designed for or higher - this is in stark contrast to other OTL output stages that work better into higher impedances. 1 impedance. Who out there *only* owns headphones that are 1 impedance? Variety is the spice of life. A SRPP output stage will not deal with switching between 32 and 300 ohm headphones as well as a white cathode follower.

 

Somewhat techy, Tubecad SRPP article

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post #9 of 34
8/26/10 at 9:16am

I do not own either, so take the following with a grain of salt.

I have listened to both the WA5LE and the B52 on several occasions at various meets, with the equipment and musical choice determined by the people who make them.  The most general statement I can make is that the B52 is an all out amp with the balls to drive anything.  This is synonymous with RSA.  The WA5LE was quite good, but sounded more laid back to me.

 

I'm sure others can chime in with more info than this.

They both easily satisfy your #2,3,4, and 5 must haves.  #1 I can't say.

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post #10 of 34
8/26/10 at 12:16pm
I'd also take a long look at the Eddie Current products. Like you, I also run an Orbe and the HD-800. I've listened to the B-52 and Woo, but am pretty dead set on running the HD-800 off 2A3 tubes - nothing else has sounded better. A 2A3 BA should be wonderful with them, and I've also enjoyed them quite well with various Grado headphones.

You bring up not liking the point-to-point layout. What bothers you? I build my amps that way and have repaired quite a few old point-to-point radios, a television, and other vintage tube gear. I've never seen anything that gave me pause in any of Craig's designs. They're as good as anything out there and superior to anything on a PCB. There's good reason why the old Moth gear sells for more than it did new - much unlike 99% of the other gear on the market. It holds up.
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post #11 of 34
8/26/10 at 6:03pm

San,

 

Yes the Balancing Act is a very fine amplifier and, in my opinion, one of the few that can compare favorably in terms of features and performance to the WA5.

 

At this level it is hard to go wrong, I wound up buying a WA5 and have never looked back. 

 

I agree that OTL amps and low impedance phones, (i.e Grado) are not an ideal match; However with an amp like the WA5 or BA the PS1000's will sound fantastic. 

 

I really wished that I could have heard the BA with the K1000's, I can tell you though that if you purchase a WA5 leave room in the budget for a pair of the AKG's, I have never heard the K1000's sound so right.

 

Once you stare long enough at that unused K1K jack on the front you will have to buy a pair to see what all the fuss is about. Trust me, you won't be disappointed.

 

While I don't own HD800's I have used them on several occasions with the WA5 and it is a great combination. 

 

I think at this point it's really semantics though you bring up a relevant point about lead-time/limited production; I guess it all comes down to how long one is willing to wait for the product to be delivered once you part with the cash.

 

In any event every time I fire up the Woo, have a wee dram as it warms up and then put on the phones, a magical experience always awaits! 


Edited by vinyllp33 - 8/26/10 at 8:53pm
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post #12 of 34
8/27/10 at 5:05am
Thread Starter 

Again, many thanks for all the input - I sent an email to EC enquiring about the 2A3 option as I couldnt see this on the BA page. I did notice that the BA went up $300 this week however to $3800.

 

The EC phono stage looks to be an absolute steal at its price tag of $1200 with many comparing it to those at twice the price. Getting them as a pair could be the deal clincher.

 

I had one question about the Woo5 LE - will it drive the K1000? I understand the full blown 5 is specifically designed for this, but what is to stop one using K1000's rewired to a standard 6.3mm jack ?

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post #13 of 34
8/28/10 at 10:26am
Thread Starter 

Update:

 

Ive spoken to my dealer here in the UK who has some 300b/2A3/45 tube kit (speaker amps). He has kindly agreed to let me listen to these (without the possibility of me purchasing!) to get a feel for the sound character of current production tubes.

 

Im leaning towards the BA 's although the Woo5 LE will be the way if Im seduced by the 300b's :)

 

I emailed Craig and he is said the BA would be able to support the 2A3/45 via the bias switch if specified. (obv not the 300b if configured as such)

 

Read that others have 307A's in thier BA's I cant find much information about getting hold of these tubes - the current production seem to favour the 45/2A3 and 300b


Edited by San Raal - 8/28/10 at 10:38am
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post #14 of 34
9/14/10 at 12:43pm
Thread Starter 

Well I went for a demo at my HiFi dealer and Im more confused than before!

 

Setup was follows

 

Consonance CD transport

Empirical Audio Overdrive DAC

Audion 300b & 2A3 speaker amp

K1000

 

The mission was to tube roll 300b tubes vs 2A3 to get a feel for the sonics of each tube (as Woo 5's and EC BA's are not available for dem in the UK). I had subconciously started to lean towards the BA based on feedback here and from my dealer on the 2A3 tube and the BA's ability to accept balanced which the Overdrive offers.

 

But, my ears threw me a curve ball - The 300b's my dealer had on dem, the JJ's were very seductive, especially with electronica and heavy metal (Boy can the K1000's rock - headbangin' style ) This was probably the most enjoyment and engagement I had ever had with music - period. That said the 300b's did sound sticky and gooey with some pop and classical, especially after listening to the 2A3's.

 

The 2A3's on dem were the Sovteks which to my ears were OK, but nothing to write home about, they seemed somewhat laid back and too "easy listening". He also had some Golden Dragons, these were more forward but didnt grab like the 300b's though very informative and textured.

 

Since the tubes took an hour to warm up to sound almost at there best Im trying to arrange a 2nd listening session with different types of music - the 300b may win through! If that is a Woo 300b or BA 300b is of course another choice entirely, if the 2A3 "sound" does win through then the decision would of been made for me!

 

Cheers

 

Oh and here are some terrible photos from the dem I took with my iphone

 

Dem1.JPG

 

 

dem2.JPG

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post #15 of 34
9/15/10 at 2:34pm

I've never heard either amp, but the B-52 is a lot more expensive.  If you get a standard WA5 you can also have the option of driving speakers.  If they are both really great amps (that is, if the sound quality becomes a matter of taste) it seems like the price difference and the versatility of the Woo would push it over the edge. 

 

I have a 6SN7 driving 300B, tube rectified amplifier and I absolutely love it!  The 300B sound can be off-putting if not implemented correctly.  Bass shy, rolled off highs.  But with the right rectifier, drivers, 300Bs, good OPT, good power, you should have great bass, sparkling highs and that smooth midrange 300Bs are famous for.  Basically, if it's done right it sounds amazing and the reputation of Woo is that they do it right. 

 

JJ makes a nice 300B (the heavy, overbuilt ones with the ceramic base) that is quite fast and good sounding.

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