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post #421 of 5003

Is there ever an optimal in a world of subjectivity?

post #422 of 5003
Thread Starter 

 

Originally Posted by Nightslayer View Post

Is there ever an optimal in a world of subjectivity?


There are preferences.  I think I prefer the Short Stack, but I also like the liberated Double Decker.  

post #423 of 5003


i dont like the size of the rs1 cups. the rs2s depth is what im going for when i get a few pairs made after christmas. This guy I met around town does a good job and cheap. just has alot of furniture to get out the door right now. I told him to create an account here but he never did.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilavideo View Post

 

Originally Posted by Nightslayer View Post

Is there ever an optimal in a world of subjectivity?


There are preferences.  I think I prefer the Short Stack, but I also like the liberated Double Decker.  

post #424 of 5003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilavideo View Post

 

Originally Posted by Nightslayer View Post

Is there ever an optimal in a world of subjectivity?


There are preferences.  I think I prefer the Short Stack, but I also like the liberated Double Decker.  



 

post #425 of 5003

So... are you selling any of those extra shells? biggrin.gif

post #426 of 5003
Thread Starter 

 

Originally Posted by Armaegis View Post

So... are you selling any of those extra shells? biggrin.gif


Armaegis, I'm flattered that you would ask.  I put the shells up on this page in order to elicit discussion of the possibilities.  The great thing about Grado is its ability to be modified and reworked.  Daring and creative minds are free to re-imagine what a Grado can and should be.  What's more, if we're willing to share information, we can help each other take ownership of these headphones and turn them into whatever we want them to be.  The more experimentation, the better.

 

That said, I'm interested in knowing which of the shells I came up with actually does it for you.

post #427 of 5003

was looking to get another set of rs2s or rs1s but instead after pulling off the cloth and poking all the holes out of the driver I am satisfied with my 325s again. So I just ordered a jmoney headband and saved some upgrading cash. Thanks for the great mods bill.

post #428 of 5003

I really do find the thin walled single donut appealing as far as simplicity & style. I'm really quite excited for my Grado's since I love to tinker and mod. If they were priced well enough I would definitely consider purchasing a set. I would also be interested if they were available unfinished (donuts with holes for wires/spindles/etc. but unsanded/stained). How are the grills mounted in the single donut models?

post #429 of 5003
Quote:
Originally Posted by schwallman View Post


i dont like the size of the rs1 cups. the rs2s depth is what im going for when i get a few pairs made after christmas. This guy I met around town does a good job and cheap. just has alot of furniture to get out the door right now. I told him to create an account here but he never did.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilavideo View Post

 

Originally Posted by Nightslayer View Post

Is there ever an optimal in a world of subjectivity?


There are preferences.  I think I prefer the Short Stack, but I also like the liberated Double Decker.  


 


If you're saying what I think you're saying about the cup size of the RS1 I can sympathize. I don't exactly know the RS1 length, but my aftermarket cups are 35 mm long! I'm forever knocking into them...causing them to shift and at times even come close to falling off...which causes my heart to skip a beat worrying about damaging the phones or the delicate wood finish. It's frustrating and annoying to have a scratch on the back of my head with the result being the phones almost on the floor!

 

But that's another good thing about the hole mod...it provides an improved bass like, or even better than, the more traditional method of a longer cup, but could potentially do so in a shorter, less likely to knock off, package.

 

While yeah, as some have indicated, cup length or style is sonically a subjective thing, I think it ultimately would be a good idea for some sort of chart or graph giving a rough idea of ACCEPTABLE bass of the various models with the (ALL) hole mod with a shortest possible more secure cup length. But such a list would take time, expense, good hearing, and experimentation to compile...which unfortunately rules me out :(. Cheers.

post #430 of 5003
Thread Starter 

 

Originally Posted by Maverickmonk View Post

I really do find the thin walled single donut appealing as far as simplicity & style. I'm really quite excited for my Grado's since I love to tinker and mod. If they were priced well enough I would definitely consider purchasing a set. I would also be interested if they were available unfinished (donuts with holes for wires/spindles/etc. but unsanded/stained). How are the grills mounted in the single donut models?

 

Grills are easy to mount.  Grado always needed to bracket the grill because he went with a simple disk which needed support from some kind of ring, either on the outside of the cup or esconced within it.  One hidden issue with the 325 is the plastic ring esconced within the aluminum shell.  Take this out and you've got a much better headphone.

 

I'm a simple man.  I cut out window screen but cut it out larger than the sound hole.  This allows me to make bends all around the edges, bends that give the grill "feet" so it can stand on its own.  Such a grill can be simply pushed into place (and stay there unless tampered with) or glued in.
 

post #431 of 5003
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinylCat62 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by schwallman View Post


i dont like the size of the rs1 cups. the rs2s depth is what im going for when i get a few pairs made after christmas. This guy I met around town does a good job and cheap. just has alot of furniture to get out the door right now. I told him to create an account here but he never did.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilavideo View Post

 

Originally Posted by Nightslayer View Post

Is there ever an optimal in a world of subjectivity?


There are preferences.  I think I prefer the Short Stack, but I also like the liberated Double Decker.  


 


If you're saying what I think you're saying about the cup size of the RS1 I can sympathize. I don't exactly know the RS1 length, but my aftermarket cups are 35 mm long! I'm forever knocking into them...causing them to shift and at times even come close to falling off...which causes my heart to skip a beat worrying about damaging the phones or the delicate wood finish. It's frustrating and annoying to have a scratch on the back of my head with the result being the phones almost on the floor!

 

But that's another good thing about the hole mod...it provides an improved bass like, or even better than, the more traditional method of a longer cup, but could potentially do so in a shorter, less likely to knock off, package.

 

While yeah, as some have indicated, cup length or style is sonically a subjective thing, I think it ultimately would be a good idea for some sort of chart or graph giving a rough idea of ACCEPTABLE bass of the various models with the (ALL) hole mod with a shortest possible more secure cup length. But such a list would take time, expense, good hearing, and experimentation to compile...which unfortunately rules me out :(. Cheers.


This is actually music to my ears.  I, too, have often thought that shorter shells made more sense.  If the theory behind the shells is elimination of removable resonance, by damping all but the diaphragms themselves, I'm not sure that super-long shells really make sense, except as a kind of fetish (insatiable decadence).  Loudspeaker cabinets are not supposed to "add" sound to the speaker.  They're supposed to provide a baffle, separating front and back waves for a cleaner sound.  They're also supposed to be sized according to the volume needs of the driver and then damped with foam to prevent backwave resonance from working its way back into the presentation.  Anybody who has ever heard that wonk-wonk subwoofer noise coming out of somebody's trunk has experienced the sound of a subwoofer being hamstringed by a tin-can receptacle.  While the larger-shell approach seems to conform to the pursuit of deeper bass through larger cabinets, it actually works at cross-purposes to the infinite baffle approach of removing the back wall of the cabinet entirely.  Tubular speaker cabinets, while cool to look at, are usually frowned upon as less effective.  As bass waves are more radial than treble, which is more directional, such waves do echo off the sides of the shell.  True infinite baffle cabinets are shell-free for that very reason.  The longer the shell, the greater the incidence of lateral resonance, which risks producing a cannier sound.  In fact, longer shells seem like another way to produce a semi-open design.  The reasons for doing this have less to do with producing lower or better bass.  They have everything to do with producing more slam.  Of course, the best way to produce lots and lots of slam is to run with closed drivers.

 

Perhaps a more accurate theory for the use of wooden shells is the desire to employ the wood as a passive radiator.  This would not produce as clean a bass as a shell-free can but it would make it louder.  There may be room for a side debate over how much low-frequency distortion can be tolerated in order to get more bass into the mix and produce a more palatable tonal balance.  Whatever the case, the mushroom top/super disk of the GS1000 has little to do with controlling resonance.  I'm not convinced the volume of the chamber is "larger" unless by that term Grado is counting the mass and extension of the wood, itself.  If we're talking about the actual volume of the air chamber, I don't see a significant increase between the RS1 and the GS1000.  What I do see is USS Enterprise style hammerhead mushroom-top ring of wood that fools the eye into accepting, as a given, that the entire shell is the size of this wooden proboscus when it's clearly just flanged at the tip.  Beside the cosmetic advantages of seeming to sport a wider tube, whose innards are actually on par with those of the RS1, the disk adds mass while the actual rear grill is reduced in size.

 

To me, these are not the hallmarks of a get-out-of-the-way approach to reducing resonance.  If anything, they're an attempt to spike the mid-bass slam - which the GS1000 sports in droves.  Grado has since replaced the GS1000 with the PS1000 at the top of its product line, an approach that reminds me of the differences I noticed in going from the SR325 to the RS1.  I hadn't yet burned in my RS1, but to me it sounded colored when compared to the aluminum SR325.  I didn't immediately rejoice at the "warm coloration" of mahogany.  What struck my virgin ears was a slight canniness when compared to aluminum.  Imagine my surprise when, years later, Grado would replace the GS1000 with the PS1000.  All vague references to driver doping aside, the big difference between the GS1000 and the PS1000 is that, while both cans employ the same mahogany underpants as found on the HF1, HF2, RS2 and RS1, the PS1000 opts for aluminum over mahogany.  In addition to leaving the PS1000 with less of the expensive mahogany which formerly justified the $200 jump from SR325 to RS2 (which you can't even see unless you pull off the cushions), it cuts the effect of using a hammerhead disk.  Its aluminum is stiff enough but it still begs the question as to why one would ever need a hammerhead tip on a shell designed to vent the backwave with as little resonance as possible.  

 

I suspect that the passive-radiator approach is the more likely to bear fruit.  The mahogany underpants are designed to oscillate (for lack of a better term at my disposal) in reaction to the radiation of the driver.  Attached close to the driver, the wood is more likely to radiate than it would further away.  If resonance were really to be avoided and minimized wherever possible, holes could be driven into the shell, just as they are driven into the wooden spacers on an MS1000.  That they aren't is evidence that the driver is being used as a wooden tuning fork.  This explains Grado's use of pointed prongs on its forks, which minimize contact between the headband and the shell.  The whole point of carefully balancing the shells between these prongs is to prevent such contact from damping vibrations of the shell.  Somewhere, I read a review of the Grado woodies which was intended to argue the opposite; that these prongs were to prevent any telegraphing of resonance between the headband and the drivers.  But if there were any resonances to worry about, does anybody really think they're going to emanate from your head?  It's the driver that's vibrating and it's this vibration that Grado is evidently trying not to interfere with.

 

If the GS1000 produces too much of a good thing, the PS1000 has arrived on the scene, engineered to produce less of it.  It maintains the same wooden underpants as its predecessors but reverts to aluminum (in a shell that not only imitates the wooden top of the GS1000 but the aluminum shell of the SR325, whose shape was imitated by the GS1000 in the first place).  Why is aluminum useful?  Because it has low mass and vibrates quickly.  On the flipside, it rings unless properly damped.  The PS1000 uses it in such thickness as to self-damp but one wonders why it's there in the first place?  Perhaps its real purpose is to provide more mass, with an eye toward achieving greater rigidity.  It's a tuning fork but one with greater density, perhaps to  achieve more lower bass.  Even then, I'm not sure the PS1000 provides a lot more grumble than any of the Grados before it.

post #432 of 5003
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by schwallman View Post

was looking to get another set of rs2s or rs1s but instead after pulling off the cloth and poking all the holes out of the driver I am satisfied with my 325s again. So I just ordered a jmoney headband and saved some upgrading cash. Thanks for the great mods bill.



Schwallman, you made my day.  I'm thrilled that the mods worked as planned.

post #433 of 5003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilavideo View Post





Schwallman, you made my day.  I'm thrilled that the mods worked as planned.





I really do like the bass now. I had a pair of sm3s for awhile and had not put on a pair of grasps for awhile. When I sold the sm3s I went back to the 325s, the bass I was used to was missing and after the mods the 325s have some much needed thump to them.

Mow searching the fs threads for some grado parts to make some frankensteins myself. Imhave a set of boss drivers that I can play with until I feel like doing major work to the 325s. I rely wonder what the difference is in the drivers. Most around here hate bose. The drivers are nearly identical to the grado drivers except the top plate has four holes instead of two. Maybe it's the enclosure they are in?
post #434 of 5003

Thanks Bilavideo for your long reply. Your comments about the passive radiator effect were enlightening. I had always thought increased bass of my aftermarket wood cups was due strictly to the increased length with it's more air flow efficient larger megaphone effect, but now I wonder. However, I'm still inclined to NOT think that increased bass is due STRICTLY to cup resonance; and I don't mean to imply you meant that (you didn't mean that did you?), but I now think it more likely it's a combination of the two (length and resonance I mean - if this thinking is wrong please let me know).

But how much a contribution to bass weight and sound a cup's resonance is I'm curious about. If indeed it's a major contribution, those making aftermarket wood cups or making their own might have to check their left and right cups closely for grain and mass matching. I know in the vinyl phonograph world for example that different production runs of a wooden tonearm model (like the excellent ones GRADO used to make…hehe :)) can cause changes to overall sound. Different densities (grain) at various places within the armtube of even the same model can produce a different sound. I wonder if something similar could happen with wood headphone cups too. I'm mostly curious since such a possibility could have implications for me with my wonkier right ear sensitivity. Perhaps I should reverse my wood cups to see if there is an improvement; my pair from HeadCoverage don't exactly have tightly toleranced left/right matching if you know what I mean. But again this speculation is dependant on if resonance is a MAJOR contributor, it could be it's not quite so great a factor, at least in this regard.

But I have to disagree with you on one point you made. I do think the mushroom end ring on a GS1000, or PS1000, or any cup's chamber for that matter, is for resonance control. I get the impression you feel some resonance is desirable, and I agree with that (again, I hope I haven't misunderstood you) but as you know, vibration travels to the point of least resistance, just as it does in a vibrating tuning fork. And if you add mass to the vibrating ends of the tuning fork, by grabbing them with your fingers for instance, the vibration (resonance) stops or lessens. In the resonate chamber of the Grado cup, the resonance would travel to the open end of the cup where, with no mushroom mass ring present, it may peak uncontrollably or negatively at some frequency. There may even be a standing wave effect at the open chamber end. Even tho it's a circle, standing waves can still occur. It must be that even the expensive GS1000/PS1000, regardless of the cup materials and implementation used, must still have a resonant tonal peak in need of control. The better aftermarket cups also have this mass ring, so there's ample evidence it's a problem, or at least something that needs to be taken into account. I'd be interested in what the JMoney guys think about all this. But I suspect that, just like Grado, they know all about it.  But I really wanted to ask you about your comments of pointed prongs on the forks?
 
Did you mean some models have pointed prongs, as in spikes, in between the forks and cups? My 325i uses plastic pegs to connect the cups to the forks but now do some Grado models use spikes? If so I think this is a good idea. Spikes are common elsewhere in the audio world and act as a mechanical diode inhibiting vibration transmission in one direction. If the pointed end of the spike is in contact with the cup (I hope so) then energy generated in the cups would be less likely to travel to and excite resonance in other connecting parts. Such resonance from these other sources could transmit back to the cups and create an additive undesirable sonic effect. So I think perhaps this is what the reviewer meant that you refer to and I'd have to agree with their assessment. If spikes aren't employed in Grado headphones I think they should be...with all it's energy the Grado seems to be a good candidate for such a treatment...and I don't think it could hurt at all.

Sorry for rambling on and sorry if I've misunderstood you. Please keep all the good post's and picture's coming.

post #435 of 5003

Mind = blown

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